Who else thinks we made out like bandits in the Perkins trade? I know I do.

[Roy H.]

No, actually if worse came to worse, he walks on you and you get nothing of equal value worth what Ainge got in Green, Krstic, and a 1st round Clipper pick.

You can't guess on trade exceptions and draft picks.  You don't have that hand to deal after this year.  You play the waiting game and you lose even more value than your playing with now.  GM's know that, and know what you can or can't offer at that point.

How many big name free agents leave without working out a sign-and-trade, though?  And even if Perk left with no compensation, that's a risk I would have taken so as not to disrupt the chemistry/cohesion, rebounding, and defense of this team.

Roy, I've seen you mention these factors before -- I agree that the subjective 'chemistry' factor is real and Perk clearly was a postive contributor to the team psyche, character and espirit de corps.  And defense for sure.  But, with regard to rebounding, we've had struggles in many stretches during Perk's tenure.  I don't think we will be a worse rebounding team without Perk.

If you replace Perk with an inferior rebounder in Krstic, how would that help our rebounding?

The replacement of Perk with Krstic is only temporary until Shaq returns and moves Nenad to the bench.

So, you're replacing 48 minutes of Perk + Shaq (probably about an even split) with Krstic + Shaq (again, probably an even split).  Based upon expected production, that's a net loss in rebounding.

Of course, if Krstic rebounds like he did against Philly and Milwaukee, we'll be fine.  If his production is more like a lot of his other games, then it's a decline in an area that already was a concern.

[winsomme]

I have not been immpressed with Jeff Green. He has been shooting a decent number from the floor, I believe 46 percent, but he is getting only 2 rebounds in 22 minutes and I think he is averaging .3 assists. The 10.6 points in 22 minutes, however, is good. Overall, however, I would say "bleh" so far in terms of what he has given the team. To me, the guy needs to start playing a lot better to justify a lot of the hoopla I saw around here when the deal was done.

On the other hand, Krstic has been better than I expected rebounding the ball, but I did expect him to score with this team and I expected his defense to be mediocre, which is has been. So, to date, I don't think the Celts have made out like bandits yet.

Jeff Green isnt being used correctly. Doc is just throwing him out there when Pierce needs a breather and seeing what happens.

Doc stated he still doesent know what to do with Green so its a work on progress, in my opinion he should be used strickly at the 3 spot backing up Pierce, and should be the main offensive option for the second unit, with Baby as the #2 option.

We wont be able to test that out until players get back from injuries though.

We absolutely cannot run our offense through Green. Sorry. I know you like this kid and are pushing  the "nobody knows how to use him" angle, but he should always be an option behind any of the Big 3 who are on the floor...

Green needs to be running the floor at all times and focusing on defense and rebounding. That's how he can most help this team right now.

[Megatron]

I have not been immpressed with Jeff Green. He has been shooting a decent number from the floor, I believe 46 percent, but he is getting only 2 rebounds in 22 minutes and I think he is averaging .3 assists. The 10.6 points in 22 minutes, however, is good. Overall, however, I would say "bleh" so far in terms of what he has given the team. To me, the guy needs to start playing a lot better to justify a lot of the hoopla I saw around here when the deal was done.

On the other hand, Krstic has been better than I expected rebounding the ball, but I did expect him to score with this team and I expected his defense to be mediocre, which is has been. So, to date, I don't think the Celts have made out like bandits yet.

Jeff Green isnt being used correctly. Doc is just throwing him out there when Pierce needs a breather and seeing what happens.

Doc stated he still doesent know what to do with Green so its a work on progress, in my opinion he should be used strickly at the 3 spot backing up Pierce, and should be the main offensive option for the second unit, with Baby as the #2 option.

We wont be able to test that out until players get back from injuries though.

We absolutely cannot run our offense through Green. Sorry. I know you like this kid and are pushing  the "nobody knows how to use him" angle, but he should always be an option behind any of the Big 3 who are on the floor...

Green needs to be running the floor at all times and focusing on defense and rebounding. That's how he can most help this team right now.

I didnt mean run the offense through Green when the Big 3 are on the floor.

I said when Green is with the rest of the second unit, he needs to be the #1 option beacause he is clearly the best player we have coming off of the bench.

[winsomme]

I have not been immpressed with Jeff Green. He has been shooting a decent number from the floor, I believe 46 percent, but he is getting only 2 rebounds in 22 minutes and I think he is averaging .3 assists. The 10.6 points in 22 minutes, however, is good. Overall, however, I would say "bleh" so far in terms of what he has given the team. To me, the guy needs to start playing a lot better to justify a lot of the hoopla I saw around here when the deal was done.

On the other hand, Krstic has been better than I expected rebounding the ball, but I did expect him to score with this team and I expected his defense to be mediocre, which is has been. So, to date, I don't think the Celts have made out like bandits yet.

Jeff Green isnt being used correctly. Doc is just throwing him out there when Pierce needs a breather and seeing what happens.

Doc stated he still doesent know what to do with Green so its a work on progress, in my opinion he should be used strickly at the 3 spot backing up Pierce, and should be the main offensive option for the second unit, with Baby as the #2 option.

We wont be able to test that out until players get back from injuries though.

We absolutely cannot run our offense through Green. Sorry. I know you like this kid and are pushing  the "nobody knows how to use him" angle, but he should always be an option behind any of the Big 3 who are on the floor...

Green needs to be running the floor at all times and focusing on defense and rebounding. That's how he can most help this team right now.

I didnt mean run the offense through Green when the Big 3 are on the floor.

I said when Green is with the rest of the second unit, he needs to be the #1 option beacause he is clearly the best player we have coming off of the bench.

ah, gotcha...well not too sure how much PT Green will get with none of KG, PP, or Ray out there, but sure I guess then we could be running plays for him...

probably not going to be more than 5  mins a game though...

[BballTim]

I have not been immpressed with Jeff Green. He has been shooting a decent number from the floor, I believe 46 percent, but he is getting only 2 rebounds in 22 minutes and I think he is averaging .3 assists. The 10.6 points in 22 minutes, however, is good. Overall, however, I would say "bleh" so far in terms of what he has given the team. To me, the guy needs to start playing a lot better to justify a lot of the hoopla I saw around here when the deal was done.

On the other hand, Krstic has been better than I expected rebounding the ball, but I did expect him to score with this team and I expected his defense to be mediocre, which is has been. So, to date, I don't think the Celts have made out like bandits yet.

Jeff Green isnt being used correctly. Doc is just throwing him out there when Pierce needs a breather and seeing what happens.

Doc stated he still doesent know what to do with Green so its a work on progress, in my opinion he should be used strickly at the 3 spot backing up Pierce, and should be the main offensive option for the second unit, with Baby as the #2 option.

We wont be able to test that out until players get back from injuries though.

  Green will definitely see time at the 4 according to Doc. And he needs to get better acclimated (as does much of the team) before Doc really figures out how to use him.

[Celtics18]

No, actually if worse came to worse, he walks on you and you get nothing of equal value worth what Ainge got in Green, Krstic, and a 1st round Clipper pick.

You can't guess on trade exceptions and draft picks.  You don't have that hand to deal after this year.  You play the waiting game and you lose even more value than your playing with now.  GM's know that, and know what you can or can't offer at that point.

How many big name free agents leave without working out a sign-and-trade, though?  And even if Perk left with no compensation, that's a risk I would have taken so as not to disrupt the chemistry/cohesion, rebounding, and defense of this team.

Roy, I've seen you mention these factors before -- I agree that the subjective 'chemistry' factor is real and Perk clearly was a postive contributor to the team psyche, character and espirit de corps.  And defense for sure.  But, with regard to rebounding, we've had struggles in many stretches during Perk's tenure.  I don't think we will be a worse rebounding team without Perk.

If you replace Perk with an inferior rebounder in Krstic, how would that help our rebounding?

The replacement of Perk with Krstic is only temporary until Shaq returns and moves Nenad to the bench.

So, you're replacing 48 minutes of Perk + Shaq (probably about an even split) with Krstic + Shaq (again, probably an even split).  Based upon expected production, that's a net loss in rebounding.

Of course, if Krstic rebounds like he did against Philly and Milwaukee, we'll be fine.  If his production is more like a lot of his other games, then it's a decline in an area that already was a concern.

Our defensive rebounding was an area of major concern last year.  We had a poor defensive rebounding rate throughout the season and it was one of the main factors that caused our loss to the Lakers in the finals.

Of course, rebounding is always a concern, but this year we have been much improved on the defensive glass from last season.  KG has stepped up his efforts, and Shaq did his job when he was in there.  We've been piecing together our front line for most of the season and still have the 7th best defensive rebounding rate in the league.

From my perspective, if Krstic ends up being more productive than Semih Erden, he's a gain for this year once Shaq returns. 

If there's no Shaq on the horizon, then we're likely in trouble.

[Roy H.]

No, actually if worse came to worse, he walks on you and you get nothing of equal value worth what Ainge got in Green, Krstic, and a 1st round Clipper pick.

You can't guess on trade exceptions and draft picks.  You don't have that hand to deal after this year.  You play the waiting game and you lose even more value than your playing with now.  GM's know that, and know what you can or can't offer at that point.

How many big name free agents leave without working out a sign-and-trade, though?  And even if Perk left with no compensation, that's a risk I would have taken so as not to disrupt the chemistry/cohesion, rebounding, and defense of this team.

Roy, I've seen you mention these factors before -- I agree that the subjective 'chemistry' factor is real and Perk clearly was a postive contributor to the team psyche, character and espirit de corps.  And defense for sure.  But, with regard to rebounding, we've had struggles in many stretches during Perk's tenure.  I don't think we will be a worse rebounding team without Perk.

If you replace Perk with an inferior rebounder in Krstic, how would that help our rebounding?

The replacement of Perk with Krstic is only temporary until Shaq returns and moves Nenad to the bench.

So, you're replacing 48 minutes of Perk + Shaq (probably about an even split) with Krstic + Shaq (again, probably an even split).  Based upon expected production, that's a net loss in rebounding.

Of course, if Krstic rebounds like he did against Philly and Milwaukee, we'll be fine.  If his production is more like a lot of his other games, then it's a decline in an area that already was a concern.

Our defensive rebounding was an area of major concern last year.  We had a poor defensive rebounding rate throughout the season and it was one of the main factors that caused our loss to the Lakers in the finals.

Of course, rebounding is always a concern, but this year we have been much improved on the defensive glass from last season.  KG has stepped up his efforts, and Shaq did his job when he was in there.  We've been piecing together our front line for most of the season and still have the 7th best defensive rebounding rate in the league.

From my perspective, if Krstic ends up being more productive than Semih Erden, he's a gain for this year once Shaq returns. 

If there's no Shaq on the horizon, then we're likely in trouble.

My original point, though, is that the Perkins trade led to a decrease in our rebounding ability.  Regardless of whether the team has been okay in that area, or whether Krstic is a better rebounder than Erden, our best rebounding combo at the center position would have been Perk + Shaq, correct?  And the Perkins trade likely led to a net decrease in rebounding, correct?

There are some positive things that the trade brought, but I just don't think improved rebounding is one of them.  We got worse in that area, and hopefully the other guys on the team can pick up the slack there.

[chambers]

No, actually if worse came to worse, he walks on you and you get nothing of equal value worth what Ainge got in Green, Krstic, and a 1st round Clipper pick.

You can't guess on trade exceptions and draft picks.  You don't have that hand to deal after this year.  You play the waiting game and you lose even more value than your playing with now.  GM's know that, and know what you can or can't offer at that point.

How many big name free agents leave without working out a sign-and-trade, though?  And even if Perk left with no compensation, that's a risk I would have taken so as not to disrupt the chemistry/cohesion, rebounding, and defense of this team.

Roy, I've seen you mention these factors before -- I agree that the subjective 'chemistry' factor is real and Perk clearly was a postive contributor to the team psyche, character and espirit de corps.  And defense for sure.  But, with regard to rebounding, we've had struggles in many stretches during Perk's tenure.  I don't think we will be a worse rebounding team without Perk.

If you replace Perk with an inferior rebounder in Krstic, how would that help our rebounding?

The replacement of Perk with Krstic is only temporary until Shaq returns and moves Nenad to the bench.

So, you're replacing 48 minutes of Perk + Shaq (probably about an even split) with Krstic + Shaq (again, probably an even split).  Based upon expected production, that's a net loss in rebounding.

Of course, if Krstic rebounds like he did against Philly and Milwaukee, we'll be fine.  If his production is more like a lot of his other games, then it's a decline in an area that already was a concern.

Our defensive rebounding was an area of major concern last year.  We had a poor defensive rebounding rate throughout the season and it was one of the main factors that caused our loss to the Lakers in the finals.

Of course, rebounding is always a concern, but this year we have been much improved on the defensive glass from last season.  KG has stepped up his efforts, and Shaq did his job when he was in there.  We've been piecing together our front line for most of the season and still have the 7th best defensive rebounding rate in the league.

From my perspective, if Krstic ends up being more productive than Semih Erden, he's a gain for this year once Shaq returns. 

If there's no Shaq on the horizon, then we're likely in trouble.

My original point, though, is that the Perkins trade led to a decrease in our rebounding ability.  Regardless of whether the team has been okay in that area, or whether Krstic is a better rebounder than Erden, our best rebounding combo at the center position would have been Perk + Shaq, correct?  And the Perkins trade likely led to a net decrease in rebounding, correct?

There are some positive things that the trade brought, but I just don't think improved rebounding is one of them.  We got worse in that area, and hopefully the other guys on the team can pick up the slack there.

I don't think you can make the statement that the Perkins trade has lost us some rebounding ability.
I think it's too early.
I also wanna ask you are you comparing perkins from 2008 and 2009 or the perkins who was back from injury?
I think it might potentially be the case that our rebounding for THIS year with perkins recovering knee may improve replacing him with Krstic.
Perk is a body/box out rebounder but i still think his knee was going to affect his effectiveness and quickness getting his body in front of opposing bigs.

[Roy H.]

No, actually if worse came to worse, he walks on you and you get nothing of equal value worth what Ainge got in Green, Krstic, and a 1st round Clipper pick.

You can't guess on trade exceptions and draft picks.  You don't have that hand to deal after this year.  You play the waiting game and you lose even more value than your playing with now.  GM's know that, and know what you can or can't offer at that point.

How many big name free agents leave without working out a sign-and-trade, though?  And even if Perk left with no compensation, that's a risk I would have taken so as not to disrupt the chemistry/cohesion, rebounding, and defense of this team.

Roy, I've seen you mention these factors before -- I agree that the subjective 'chemistry' factor is real and Perk clearly was a postive contributor to the team psyche, character and espirit de corps.  And defense for sure.  But, with regard to rebounding, we've had struggles in many stretches during Perk's tenure.  I don't think we will be a worse rebounding team without Perk.

If you replace Perk with an inferior rebounder in Krstic, how would that help our rebounding?

The replacement of Perk with Krstic is only temporary until Shaq returns and moves Nenad to the bench.

So, you're replacing 48 minutes of Perk + Shaq (probably about an even split) with Krstic + Shaq (again, probably an even split).  Based upon expected production, that's a net loss in rebounding.

Of course, if Krstic rebounds like he did against Philly and Milwaukee, we'll be fine.  If his production is more like a lot of his other games, then it's a decline in an area that already was a concern.

Our defensive rebounding was an area of major concern last year.  We had a poor defensive rebounding rate throughout the season and it was one of the main factors that caused our loss to the Lakers in the finals.

Of course, rebounding is always a concern, but this year we have been much improved on the defensive glass from last season.  KG has stepped up his efforts, and Shaq did his job when he was in there.  We've been piecing together our front line for most of the season and still have the 7th best defensive rebounding rate in the league.

From my perspective, if Krstic ends up being more productive than Semih Erden, he's a gain for this year once Shaq returns. 

If there's no Shaq on the horizon, then we're likely in trouble.

My original point, though, is that the Perkins trade led to a decrease in our rebounding ability.  Regardless of whether the team has been okay in that area, or whether Krstic is a better rebounder than Erden, our best rebounding combo at the center position would have been Perk + Shaq, correct?  And the Perkins trade likely led to a net decrease in rebounding, correct?

There are some positive things that the trade brought, but I just don't think improved rebounding is one of them.  We got worse in that area, and hopefully the other guys on the team can pick up the slack there.

I don't think you can make the statement that the Perkins trade has lost us some rebounding ability.
I think it's too early.
I also wanna ask you are you comparing perkins from 2008 and 2009 or the perkins who was back from injury?
I think it might potentially be the case that our rebounding for THIS year with perkins recovering knee may improve replacing him with Krstic.
Perk is a body/box out rebounder but i still think his knee was going to affect his effectiveness and quickness getting his body in front of opposing bigs.

Well, in terms of it being too early, I'm simply using logic to project that replacing an inferior defensive rebounder with a superior one would increase team defensive rebounding ability.

Also, yes, I'm comparing 2011 Perk with 2011 Krstic.  Despite his injury, Perk has been a very good rebounder in the 13 games he has played this year.  For the most part, Krstic hasn't been (although he did recently have two good rebounding games).

[Interceptor]

I don't think those two recent high-rebound games were outliers; I think that they are a sign of Krstic's potential on this team.

Let's be honest, here, there's no reason that Krstic can't be a better rebounder.  He's taller than Perk, he's faster than Perk, he can get off the goat-kissing ground, and from where I'm standing -- as I watch Krstic jump sideways to steal an offensive rebound away from three guys wearing the other team's jersey -- it seems like he has decent instincts.  Also, you don't have to be physically strong in order to box someone out, which can be nearly important as getting the rebound in the first place (but doesn't show up in stats as a shiny number, so tends to get ignored).

I think that he can deliver, if it's asked of him, when it makes sense.

[Roy H.]

I don't think those two recent high-rebound games were outliers; I think that they are a sign of Krstic's potential on this team.

Maybe you're right, but this is a list of Krstic's defensive rebounds since joining the team:

0
4
3
5
1
3
11
10
1

His previous high for defensive rebounds in a game in OKC this season was 6.  Therefore, I'm not ready to say that the double digit efforts are a show of his "true" ability, while his entire body of work (including 7 out of 9 games in Boston) is inaccurate.

Krstic was near the bottom of the league for defensive rebounding percentage while with the Thunder.  I'd like to have more than 2 games to go on before I'm convinced that he's a good rebounder.

EDIT:  For comparison's sake, Perk's defensive rebounding totals this season:  3, 8, 4, 5, 8, 8, 12, 5, 7, 4, 6, 4, 7.  Average:  6.2 in 25.6 minutes. 

Krstic, despite his two big games, is averaging 4.2 defensive rebounds in 27.2 minutes. 

[bbd24]

Roy,  I think the biggest mistake your making is that after the trade, you've been comparing Krstic likes he's Perks replacement. Whether its reboudning or defense. For me, and I think the same goes with Ainge, Shaq is Perks replacement. Krstic is replacing JO, Erden, and the other center by committe members that fell behind Shaq on the bench.

I think its a heckuva replacement and great for the bench.  Now its just about getting healthy for the run when the season actually starts, and getting the new guys acquainted with the system and their roles.

[MattG12]

[wdleehi]

Roy,  I think the biggest mistake your making is that after the trade, you've been comparing Krstic likes he's Perks replacement. Whether its reboudning or defense. For me, and I think the same goes with Ainge, Shaq is Perks replacement. Krstic is replacing JO, Erden, and the other center by committe members that fell behind Shaq on the bench.

I think its a heckuva replacement and great for the bench.  Now its just about getting healthy for the run when the season actually starts, and getting the new guys acquainted with the system and their roles.

How is Shaq replacing Perk when both Shaq and Perk were already on the team? 

[Chris]

Roy,  I think the biggest mistake your making is that after the trade, you've been comparing Krstic likes he's Perks replacement. Whether its reboudning or defense. For me, and I think the same goes with Ainge, Shaq is Perks replacement. Krstic is replacing JO, Erden, and the other center by committe members that fell behind Shaq on the bench.

I think its a heckuva replacement and great for the bench.  Now its just about getting healthy for the run when the season actually starts, and getting the new guys acquainted with the system and their roles.

How is Shaq replacing Perk when both Shaq and Perk were already on the team? 

Shaq is replacing Perk's role as starter.  And either JO or Krstic is replacing Shaqs role as second team center.