Author Topic: Krstic is being overrated  (Read 56480 times)

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Re: Krstic is being overrated
« Reply #195 on: March 08, 2011, 06:49:57 AM »

Offline droponov

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I made a thread almost EXACTLY like this a couple of days ago, and got torn apart for it.

I agree 100% with the original poster though.

What we gave up in defense and rebounding was not NEARLY offset by the modest (if any) gains in offense.
And that's not even considering the fact that this new team will have very little time to gel.

UGH.

Obviously (I think the gains exist, but they are indeed modest... as one would expect considering we're talking about a 4th/5th option and it wasn't an upgrade from DeSagana Diop to Amare Stoudemire). That's why Krstic will be pined to the bench on the playoffs while Shaq and Jermaine O'Neal get his minutes.


Re: Krstic is being overrated
« Reply #196 on: March 08, 2011, 07:09:34 AM »

Offline jdz101

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I dont think anyone is rating the guy super highly though, so im not really sure where this post comes from. If anything people are taken aback/surprised by his productivity (at least on the offensive end).

The other option of keeping Perk and Nate looks terrible in the short term and definitely would've lost us some games and cost us top seed in the east.

Nenad is doing a great job of getting the scoring started with easy buckets in the first quarter of games. Every time I've watched the Cs play lately this guy is getting buckets in the first, getting to the line, and building momentum, and with a euro like that, thats the most you can hope for.

Sure he isn't a gladiator on defence, but no one was expecting him to be. The efforts there.


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Re: Krstic is being overrated
« Reply #197 on: March 08, 2011, 07:24:11 AM »

Offline Greenbean

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I dont think anyone is rating the guy super highly though, so im not really sure where this post comes from. If anything people are taken aback/surprised by his productivity (at least on the offensive end).

The other option of keeping Perk and Nate looks terrible in the short term and definitely would've lost us some games and cost us top seed in the east.

Nenad is doing a great job of getting the scoring started with easy buckets in the first quarter of games. Every time I've watched the Cs play lately this guy is getting buckets in the first, getting to the line, and building momentum, and with a euro like that, thats the most you can hope for.

Sure he isn't a gladiator on defence, but no one was expecting him to be. The efforts there.

The post is in response to the notion around here that even if Shaq isnt healthy, that we can get by relying on Krstic as our primary center.

Krstic is definitely better than advertised offensively so far, but "as" advertised rebounding the ball and defensively. That is where the concern lies. Krstic has been nice but we still need Shaq to win it.

Re: Krstic is being overrated
« Reply #198 on: March 08, 2011, 10:34:20 AM »

Offline ballin

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I've gotta get in here and voice my support for Roy on this one.

While Krstic might be a better player offensively (despite shooting a much lower TS%?) Perkins is by far the better overall player due to his defense and rebounding.

Krstic is a horrific rebounder, and frankly rebounding has been the Celtics' problem, which he only makes worse (see: Game 7 loss, last place in total rebounds this year).

Krstic is not a shot blocker, and as I've been saying a lot lately, NBA lineups without at least one shot blocker on the floor are BAD. Any team with decent guards will just go to the hoop and gets and-1's or free throws or layups.


I don't want to make any sweeping generalizations, but I'm amazed that so many Celtics fans are so quick to dismiss the value of defense. The game is played on both sides of the court, and Perkins is vastly superior at one end. What we gave up on defense has simply NOT been mitigated in offensive capability. If we were only considering Perk + Krstic (ignoring Jeff Green), it should be obvious we made a bad trade.

Re: Krstic is being overrated
« Reply #199 on: March 08, 2011, 11:09:00 AM »

Offline Bankshot

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I dont think anyone is rating the guy super highly though, so im not really sure where this post comes from. If anything people are taken aback/surprised by his productivity (at least on the offensive end).

The other option of keeping Perk and Nate looks terrible in the short term and definitely would've lost us some games and cost us top seed in the east.

Nenad is doing a great job of getting the scoring started with easy buckets in the first quarter of games. Every time I've watched the Cs play lately this guy is getting buckets in the first, getting to the line, and building momentum, and with a euro like that, thats the most you can hope for.

Sure he isn't a gladiator on defence, but no one was expecting him to be. The efforts there.

The post is in response to the notion around here that even if Shaq isnt healthy, that we can get by relying on Krstic as our primary center.

Krstic is definitely better than advertised offensively so far, but "as" advertised rebounding the ball and defensively. That is where the concern lies. Krstic has been nice but we still need Shaq to win it.

I haven't heard anyone say that Krstic is good enough to be our primary center, but of course I haven't read every single post.  The trade is an excellent one because we have Shaq and as old as Shaq is he's still better than Perk and probably healthier too.
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Re: Krstic is being overrated
« Reply #200 on: March 08, 2011, 11:19:34 AM »

Offline winsomme

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I dont think anyone is rating the guy super highly though, so im not really sure where this post comes from. If anything people are taken aback/surprised by his productivity (at least on the offensive end).

The other option of keeping Perk and Nate looks terrible in the short term and definitely would've lost us some games and cost us top seed in the east.

Nenad is doing a great job of getting the scoring started with easy buckets in the first quarter of games. Every time I've watched the Cs play lately this guy is getting buckets in the first, getting to the line, and building momentum, and with a euro like that, thats the most you can hope for.

Sure he isn't a gladiator on defence, but no one was expecting him to be. The efforts there.

The post is in response to the notion around here that even if Shaq isnt healthy, that we can get by relying on Krstic as our primary center.

Krstic is definitely better than advertised offensively so far, but "as" advertised rebounding the ball and defensively. That is where the concern lies. Krstic has been nice but we still need Shaq to win it.

I haven't heard anyone say that Krstic is good enough to be our primary center, but of course I haven't read every single post.  The trade is an excellent one because we have Shaq and as old as Shaq is he's still better than Perk and probably healthier too.

I hope you're right about Shaq, Bank.

Just out of curiosity, are you predicting that Shaq will be able to start for us throughout the playoffs?

Re: Krstic is being overrated
« Reply #201 on: March 08, 2011, 11:23:16 AM »

Offline CelticG1

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I dont think anyone is rating the guy super highly though, so im not really sure where this post comes from. If anything people are taken aback/surprised by his productivity (at least on the offensive end).

The other option of keeping Perk and Nate looks terrible in the short term and definitely would've lost us some games and cost us top seed in the east.

Nenad is doing a great job of getting the scoring started with easy buckets in the first quarter of games. Every time I've watched the Cs play lately this guy is getting buckets in the first, getting to the line, and building momentum, and with a euro like that, thats the most you can hope for.

Sure he isn't a gladiator on defence, but no one was expecting him to be. The efforts there.

The post is in response to the notion around here that even if Shaq isnt healthy, that we can get by relying on Krstic as our primary center.

Krstic is definitely better than advertised offensively so far, but "as" advertised rebounding the ball and defensively. That is where the concern lies. Krstic has been nice but we still need Shaq to win it.

If Shaq isn't going to healthy then we were going to be screwed anyway thats what I don't understand about this thread. Krstic could start and it wouldn't be a problem as long as Shaq and Jermaine are back. If those guys don't come back then we are in a ton of trouble no matter who is playing center, unless we had an all-star there. No one is saying that Krstic can be the only center on this team and still win it are they?

The main issue is depth at center whether we kept Perk or not.

Re: Krstic is being overrated
« Reply #202 on: March 08, 2011, 11:29:10 AM »

Offline Junkyard Dawg

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I'm also gonna support the OP here.  Great, Nenad has had some good games and I wouldn't be surprised if he continues to have good games against the GSW, Phoenix and MIL teams of the league.  But it doesn't mean anything until he can do it against the Bulls, the Lakers, the Magic in the playoffs.  Teams know what we are about, and they play defense against us.  Krstics good but not great offensive game will likely be neutralized at some point, and his weaknesses on the other end are really gonna show.  

This isn't to say he can't contribute, I think there is definitely a role for him on this team, maybe even as a 2nd-stringer come playoff time, but we are definitely in serious trouble if he's a starter.

Re: Krstic is being overrated
« Reply #203 on: March 08, 2011, 11:31:23 AM »

Offline Bankshot

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I dont think anyone is rating the guy super highly though, so im not really sure where this post comes from. If anything people are taken aback/surprised by his productivity (at least on the offensive end).

The other option of keeping Perk and Nate looks terrible in the short term and definitely would've lost us some games and cost us top seed in the east.

Nenad is doing a great job of getting the scoring started with easy buckets in the first quarter of games. Every time I've watched the Cs play lately this guy is getting buckets in the first, getting to the line, and building momentum, and with a euro like that, thats the most you can hope for.

Sure he isn't a gladiator on defence, but no one was expecting him to be. The efforts there.

The post is in response to the notion around here that even if Shaq isnt healthy, that we can get by relying on Krstic as our primary center.

Krstic is definitely better than advertised offensively so far, but "as" advertised rebounding the ball and defensively. That is where the concern lies. Krstic has been nice but we still need Shaq to win it.

I haven't heard anyone say that Krstic is good enough to be our primary center, but of course I haven't read every single post.  The trade is an excellent one because we have Shaq and as old as Shaq is he's still better than Perk and probably healthier too.

I hope you're right about Shaq, Bank.

Just out of curiosity, are you predicting that Shaq will be able to start for us throughout the playoffs?

Yes.  I believe Shaq can play now if needed (that's what Sherrod Blakely said).  They are just resting him so he can be as close to 100% as possible.
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Re: Krstic is being overrated
« Reply #204 on: March 08, 2011, 11:44:51 AM »

Offline Arok325

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I think people are being too critical of Krstic and heaping on too much praise on Perkins. This isn't simply a one for one trade. There are many ramifications to this trade that go beyond the stats that Perkins and Krstic put up. There are many things to consider.

First, in terms of offense, Krstic is a better fit for this team than Perkins. This should be evident by the past few games as it is irrefutably clear that Krstic fills a hole on offense that Perkins could not. Krstic spreads the floor and opens things up for Rondo (whether he takes advantage of that or not is another story). He can shoot, he crashes the offensive boards and he has very good hands in the post. Inside scoring is something we lack when Perkins is on the floor and this is something to consider.

Secondly, the injury bug has hit us hard this year. Perkins is out for an extended period of time and whether people like it or not Perkins is very injure prone. His shoulders and knees are recurring issues that have and will continue to hurt this team. Krstic is much healthier and longevity and reliability are important factors for any team, let alone one thats had the issues we have.

Thirdly, people are over-emphasizing defense. Take a look at the rankings. We're second in points allowed per game. Whether we allow points to be scored against us from the perimeter or post players is irrelevent. You need to take the whole picture into consideration. We're perhaps the best defensive team in the league (along with the Bulls). This tells me that defense is a product of the strategies and schemes employed by the coaches, not simply the impacts of one player. Which, consequently, leads me to another sub-point that Perkins has not played much this year at all and we're still top in the rankings. Krstic will be reasonably effective on defense and that's all thats needed.

Finally, I just need to state that we got Jeff Green in this trade who is central to the future of this team and also who proides a necessary role. The bench is stronger now and this is also an important consideration.

As to rebounding, I cannot argue that Krsic makes us better. I concede that he is an ineffective Center for this purpose. However, this team does no stress rebounding as a whole anyways. We are one of the worst rebounding teams in the league with or without Perkins so whats the difference? People complain about size in the playoffs and how that lost us the series. I disagree. We choked. Plain and simple. We had a lead in Game 7 and blew it. Not due to rebounding but due to mental lapses and an inability to score when it was needed the most. In the end, rebounding is correlated with winning games but it does not imply causation. Want to know the best rebounding team in the league? It's the Minnesota Timberwolves and they're wonderfully terrible. Rebounding is only important if you can translate it into a better defensive efficiency or to more points scored. A good offense and a good defense are what makes a team win. If you score more points than you allow: you win. Plain and simple. The Celtics are one of the best defensive teams in the league and they lead the league is assists per game. To me these indicate that we have little to worry about. Though some people raise valid points I think that most are still thinking with their hearts and not with their heads. In the end Krstic, Green, Murphy, Pavlovic, and Arroyo are stonger than Perkins, Robinson, Erden, Daniels, and Harangody (especially when you conisider the health of these players and the aforementioned points). Good day.

Re: Krstic is being overrated
« Reply #205 on: March 08, 2011, 12:40:51 PM »

Offline clover

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The C's are of course in much better shape for the playoffs with one or both of the O'Neals healthy.  But have they lost all hope if they aren't?  I don't think so.  First, they've got championship-veteran All-Stars at the other four starting positions.  Then they've got a deeply functional bench.

So is there no chance they could get by with Krstic, Baby and even a little Murphy at center?  No, it's not your first or second or third choice, but I wouldn't write them off.  They wouldn't likely be the favorites, but I don't think they'd necessarily be out of it either.

Re: Krstic is being overrated
« Reply #206 on: March 08, 2011, 01:40:18 PM »

Offline snively

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Krstic is not a shot blocker, and as I've been saying a lot lately, NBA lineups without at least one shot blocker on the floor are BAD. Any team with decent guards will just go to the hoop and gets and-1's or free throws or layups.
 

Perk wasn't a shotblocker for us this year, either.  He had no lift on his shot challenges.  Still excellent at rotating and contesting, but he wasn't doing much in the way of swatting.  KG has some nice blocks but he's not what I'd classify as a shot-blocker either. Our best two shot-blockers this year have been the O'Neals.

As for shot-blocking, it's useful but it's not as essential as you're making it out to be.  The big 4 + Krstic line-up has been very effective defensively (other than that 1st quarter against the Bucks), as were the Big 4 with this year's completely earthbound version of Perk.  Shot-blocking is a great defensive weapon, but a team can play excellent defense without it.
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PG: Chauncey Billups/Deron Williams
SG: Kobe Bryant/Eric Gordon
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Re: Krstic is being overrated
« Reply #207 on: March 08, 2011, 01:41:59 PM »

Offline guava_wrench

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Ultimately we do not know how strong the team will be with Krstic starting until it happens. We mostly have speculation based on knowing the past (performance with Perk) but not knowing the future (performance with Krstic).

We will never actually 'know' if the trade was the right move. We will only know the level of success both teams and all the players have post-trade. This opens the door for endless debate.

I agree with those who are bothered by what seem feels like revisionist history as to Perk's contributions to the team. This is not surprising since a player like Gordon who plays inefficient, one-dimensional offense but no defense can get a ridiculous contract while defensive specialists that don't put up stats are often ignored. While I agree that Perk does not look like he will return to form this season, I believe Perk was a very valuable player pre-injury and may return to that form for next season.

Re: Krstic is being overrated
« Reply #208 on: March 08, 2011, 01:43:29 PM »

Offline guava_wrench

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As to rebounding, I cannot argue that Krsic makes us better. I concede that he is an ineffective Center for this purpose. However, this team does no stress rebounding as a whole anyways. We are one of the worst rebounding teams in the league with or without Perkins so whats the difference? People complain about size in the playoffs and how that lost us the series. I disagree. We choked. Plain and simple. We had a lead in Game 7 and blew it. Not due to rebounding but due to mental lapses and an inability to score when it was needed the most. In the end, rebounding is correlated with winning games but it does not imply causation. Want to know the best rebounding team in the league? It's the Minnesota Timberwolves and they're wonderfully terrible. Rebounding is only important if you can translate it into a better defensive efficiency or to more points scored. A good offense and a good defense are what makes a team win. If you score more points than you allow: you win. Plain and simple. The Celtics are one of the best defensive teams in the league and they lead the league is assists per game. To me these indicate that we have little to worry about. Though some people raise valid points I think that most are still thinking with their hearts and not with their heads. In the end Krstic, Green, Murphy, Pavlovic, and Arroyo are stonger than Perkins, Robinson, Erden, Daniels, and Harangody (especially when you conisider the health of these players and the aforementioned points). Good day.
We do not stress offensive rebounding. We do stress defensive rebounding.

You need to separate out those stats in your analysis.

Re: Krstic is being overrated
« Reply #209 on: March 08, 2011, 03:16:36 PM »

Offline mobilija

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whether we have a banged up Perk or Kristic, without one or both of the O'neals, we would be in trouble. The argument is moot.