Pierce is our best player

[Carhole]

PP and KG both played huge minutes, the sample size for "when they are off the floor" is extremely small.

If you want to find the info I would love to look at it, but for the Twolves it was year after year where they were between 10 and 17th in def efficiency

Also in the 06-07 season we know that the celtics with PP were one of the worst teams ever to lace them up. They were a team with a 10% winning percentage and with him they were almost 500.

KG had better talent on most all of his Twolves teams then PP had. Toine was the best player PP ever played with and He his terrible. He took more shots then points scored in two entire playoff runs! And he couldnt guard anyone.

I would take Sprewell, Cassel and a healthy Wally ahead of anyone Paul played with.

Garnett missed 6 games in 2007.  The Wolves went 0 - 6, with an average loss margin of 19.2 points.  

On the year, the Wolves were +13 in the roughly 3000 minutes he played, and -310 in the 1000 minutes he sat.  Sample size wasn't an issue...the 2007 Wolves were really, REALLY bad outside of Garnett.  I mean, like historically bad.

The '07 Celtics were terrible without Pierce...-5.9 points/48 minutes without their Captain.

The '07 Wolves were even worse without KG... -14.8 points/48 minutes without Garnett.

I don't see why this needed to be brought up, but if you're going to do it then at least be accurate.  Since they started keeping track of the +/- stats in 2002, no player in the NBA has done more to elevate his teams than Garnett.  Not Duncan, not Kobe, not LeBron.  And not Pierce.

Oh yeah, and as far as defense goes, KG tended to have a similar on-court/off-court defensive impact for the Wolves as he's had for the Celtics.  The difference is, here the defense without him would be almost average so his impact takes it from average to epic.  In Minnesota, the defense without him was putrid, so he took it from wretched to average.

His individual defensive impact was similar, it's all about the starting point.

I do not fully understand your anger, unless you are one of the fanatical KG fans on the site. The stats I offered were accurate. The only stats I offered was the horrendousness of the 06-07 celtics with PP, that team too was historically bad. And I asked for the stats so it is not as if you are unearthing some data that I just simply did not want to enter into the equation.

The plus minus stats are interesting but also not completely telling. I am pretty sure since the Ray, PP and KG have been together that PP has the greatest plus minus of the group. I know he had the best in 07-08 does that mean he was the best player on the championship team?

That 0 and 6 record was the last 6 games if I remember correctly. They were already in full tank mode. Out of the playoffs with a bunch of guys playing for nothing flaunting the ave margin of defeat from those games is not overly impressive but quite the good use of selective analysis. They lost 15 out of their last 20 14 of those he was on the court.



Also I said "KG is the best help defender I have ever seen" Is that not obvious enough praise for his defensive prowess to satisfy you? Should I have said he would shutout all of the aliens from space jam and all of the first ballot hof players all by himself?

There are a huge array of advanced stats and you can usually find ones to support whatever argument you are trying to support. For all of his historic greatness on defense he did not win a Defensive player of the year until he got here.

The best thing is I did not say that PP was better, I said that they are both great and both need each other. That they are perfect compliments. KG makes PP better where he is weak and PPs strengths help pick up KG's weaknesses and that is what makes this incarnation of the celtics so good.

[dysgenic]

I believe that Pierce is the best player on this team and always has been.  I think KG is the second best, but the thing about KG that a lot on this board don't want to face is that he is not a great pressure player.  I don't believe (like some) that KG is a choker...I just don't think that he consistently elevates his game in the biggest moments. 
Pierce has ALWAYS been a great pressure player.  The Celts' players and coaches know this and they knew it in '08, too.  That is why they go to him and look to him in the biggest moments; and they always have. 

I have always believed that Paul Pierce is one of the most underrated players of alltime.  We know about his offensive game, his physical toughness, and his defense (he doesn't get enough credit for his passing and defensive rebounding, imo).  He doesn't get nearly enough credit for his leadership, his longetivity, his athletisism, and his MENTAL toughness. Look at what this guy has gone through from the stabbing incident to the fan criticism to his initially rocky relationship with Doc, it's remarkable what he has overcome.  People say we would have 0 chance to win a championship without KG...I agree.  I also say that without Pierce, we would have 0 chance.

Sometimes I hear people say that Pierce is a borderline hall of famer and it p---es me off.  He is so much better than that, he always was; then he goes and dominates Kobe, one of the supposed 10 best players of alltime (yea, right!) in the NBA championship, wins the MVP, and people STILL say he is a borderline HOF.

I think for some reason the weaknesses in his game really stick out to people more than other great players.  He doesn't handle the ball very well, sometimes he turns the ball over when he shouldn't, and at times he tries to do too much.  He is not always under control like Ray and his game is not always pleasing to the eye like, say, Melo.  But the guy is a WINNER and I would go to war with Paul Pierce anyday.  He is one of my favorite Boston athletes and someone that I love to root for.  I also think he is the 2nd best Celtic of the Bird era behind Larry (yes, better than McHale).

Look at what he is doing this year at aged 33 (32? sorry I don't remember).  Fifty percent from the field and 85% from the line with the amount of 3's he takes plus a team that has been injured all year.  I love Paul Pierce, I can't say enough about the guy.

[droponov]

Also, people seem to conveniently forget that KGs Twolves teams were almost always middle of the pack defensive teams. If KG single handedly can lock down the world, as I am so often lead to believe, how could that be.

Check their rosters. How how awful they were when he was off the floor.

And you are just referring to defense I assume but the reality is on Offense PP had his greatest jump in efficiency when Doc came and instituted a real offense even though he was playing with nobodies.

KG has seen a nice spike in his efficiency since playing with a true lead scorer.

I was talking about the Wolves. They weren't an elite defensive team because Garnett had a horrible supporting casts and he couldn't play 48 mpg.

KG was a top-3 defender in the league when he was in Minnesota, arguably deserved a DPOY before 2007/2008 (even though I think that was his best year in terms of defense... more mature).

Garnett was a MVP level of player for most of his career. Pierce wasn't.

[Carhole]

Also, people seem to conveniently forget that KGs Twolves teams were almost always middle of the pack defensive teams. If KG single handedly can lock down the world, as I am so often lead to believe, how could that be.

Check their rosters. How how awful they were when he was off the floor.

And you are just referring to defense I assume but the reality is on Offense PP had his greatest jump in efficiency when Doc came and instituted a real offense even though he was playing with nobodies.

KG has seen a nice spike in his efficiency since playing with a true lead scorer.

I was talking about the Wolves. They weren't an elite defensive team because Garnett had a horrible supporting casts and he couldn't play 48 mpg.

KG was a top-3 defender in the league when he was in Minnesota, arguably deserved a DPOY before 2007/2008 (even though I think that was his best year in terms of defense... more mature).

Garnett was a MVP level of player for most of his career. Pierce wasn't.

Garnett has had a better career than PP.

Garnett top 20 players of all time.

PP top 50 (maybe top 40)

The OP of this thread was based on what is going on now. Why would the fact he was also an MVP caliber player have any weight?

If it did, Shaq would be the best player on our team.

PP and KG are the two most important cogs in this engine in my opinion. You need them both

[Megatron]

Im glad we all finally agree that Rondo is not our best player and never has been.

Im getting sick of his inconsistency, lack of effort and careless playstyle. Great players show up EVERY game.

Its clear that Rondo isnt "having a bad game". He just simply isnt trying.

Who makes between the leg behind the back passes on a clear easy fast break? The guy tries too hard and is too cocky.

[dysgenic]

Im glad we all finally agree that Rondo is not our best player and never has been.

Im getting sick of his inconsistency, lack of effort and careless playstyle. Great players show up EVERY game.

Its clear that Rondo isnt "having a bad game". He just simply isnt trying.

Who makes between the leg behind the back passes on a clear easy fast break? The guy tries too hard and is too cocky.

Agreed.  Sometimes he gets really lazy on D, too..and reaches instead of moving his feet which can often lead to layups or useless fouls.  It gets annoying, especially considering how talented of a defensive player he is.  That being said, Rondo is a great player, and let's face it, we don't win without him, either (although I wouldn't say we have a 0% chance of winning, just probably like 10% w/ Delonte).

[Megatron]

Im glad we all finally agree that Rondo is not our best player and never has been.

Im getting sick of his inconsistency, lack of effort and careless playstyle. Great players show up EVERY game.

Its clear that Rondo isnt "having a bad game". He just simply isnt trying.

Who makes between the leg behind the back passes on a clear easy fast break? The guy tries too hard and is too cocky.

Agreed.  Sometimes he gets really lazy on D, too..and reaches instead of moving his feet which can often lead to layups or useless fouls.  It gets annoying, especially considering how talented of a defensive player he is.  That being said, Rondo is a great player, and let's face it, we don't win without him, either (although I wouldn't say we have a 0% chance of winning, just probably like 10% w/ Delonte).

We cant win without him, in the playoffs he usually makes the case for being our best player, but he doesent deserve that honor yet.

Rondo has simply been spoiled by playing with the Big 3. Rondo can not show up at all some nights and we can still win.

For example last night. 6 points, 8 assists, 8 turnovers? If Derrick Rose had that stat line the bulls would have gotten blown out.

Rondo has grown accustom to not having to give 100% every night.

KG's T-Wolves had no chance of winning a title, not with the players he had around him, but for 12 years he gave everything he had to that team, win or lose.

Until Rondo does that I refuse to consider him in the C's best player category.

[RockinRyA]

First of all congrats to PP for the player of the week honors.

This C's team is built to rely on each other so much that you could argue anyone is our best player. We would suffer if ray's shooting goes cold (see finals, other series), if KG isn't 100% (esp game 1 finals 2010) or rondo decides to meet avery bradley's play halfway (see last game). But when all other options are exhausted, we give the ball to PP's hands (the dreaded pp iso) because that would be our best chance to score given the circumstances.

[vl819]

Im glad we all finally agree that Rondo is not our best player and never has been.

Im getting sick of his inconsistency, lack of effort and careless playstyle. Great players show up EVERY game.

Its clear that Rondo isnt "having a bad game". He just simply isnt trying.

Who makes between the leg behind the back passes on a clear easy fast break? The guy tries too hard and is too cocky.

Agreed.  Sometimes he gets really lazy on D, too..and reaches instead of moving his feet which can often lead to layups or useless fouls.  It gets annoying, especially considering how talented of a defensive player he is.  That being said, Rondo is a great player, and let's face it, we don't win without him, either (although I wouldn't say we have a 0% chance of winning, just probably like 10% w/ Delonte).

We cant win without him, in the playoffs he usually makes the case for being our best player, but he doesent deserve that honor yet.

Rondo has simply been spoiled by playing with the Big 3. Rondo can not show up at all some nights and we can still win.

For example last night. 6 points, 8 assists, 8 turnovers? If Derrick Rose had that stat line the bulls would have gotten blown out.

Rondo has grown accustom to not having to give 100% every night.

KG's T-Wolves had no chance of winning a title, not with the players he had around him, but for 12 years he gave everything he had to that team, win or lose.

Until Rondo does that I refuse to consider him in the C's best player category.

+1

[celtics2]

I think Pierce has been our best player for years now. If he gets his 3rd Championship he's got to be mentioned up there with Bird.

[Birdbrain]

Im glad we all finally agree that Rondo is not our best player and never has been.

Im getting sick of his inconsistency, lack of effort and careless playstyle. Great players show up EVERY game.

Its clear that Rondo isnt "having a bad game". He just simply isnt trying.

Who makes between the leg behind the back passes on a clear easy fast break? The guy tries too hard and is too cocky.

Agreed.  Sometimes he gets really lazy on D, too..and reaches instead of moving his feet which can often lead to layups or useless fouls.  It gets annoying, especially considering how talented of a defensive player he is.  That being said, Rondo is a great player, and let's face it, we don't win without him, either (although I wouldn't say we have a 0% chance of winning, just probably like 10% w/ Delonte).

We cant win without him, in the playoffs he usually makes the case for being our best player, but he doesent deserve that honor yet.

Rondo has simply been spoiled by playing with the Big 3. Rondo can not show up at all some nights and we can still win.

For example last night. 6 points, 8 assists, 8 turnovers? If Derrick Rose had that stat line the bulls would have gotten blown out.

Rondo has grown accustom to not having to give 100% every night.

KG's T-Wolves had no chance of winning a title, not with the players he had around him, but for 12 years he gave everything he had to that team, win or lose.

Until Rondo does that I refuse to consider him in the C's best player category.

Good point about Rose but, if he shoots 8-21 they have still have a great shot at winning.

Thank  <insert whatever deity of your choice > Rondo doesn't think being a PG means you should be shooting 20 times a game. 

Rose though probably does due to the lack of talent around him.

[droponov]

Also, people seem to conveniently forget that KGs Twolves teams were almost always middle of the pack defensive teams. If KG single handedly can lock down the world, as I am so often lead to believe, how could that be.

Check their rosters. How how awful they were when he was off the floor.

And you are just referring to defense I assume but the reality is on Offense PP had his greatest jump in efficiency when Doc came and instituted a real offense even though he was playing with nobodies.

KG has seen a nice spike in his efficiency since playing with a true lead scorer.

I was talking about the Wolves. They weren't an elite defensive team because Garnett had a horrible supporting casts and he couldn't play 48 mpg.

KG was a top-3 defender in the league when he was in Minnesota, arguably deserved a DPOY before 2007/2008 (even though I think that was his best year in terms of defense... more mature).

Garnett was a MVP level of player for most of his career. Pierce wasn't.

Garnett has had a better career than PP.

Garnett top 20 players of all time.

PP top 50 (maybe top 40)

The OP of this thread was based on what is going on now. Why would the fact he was also an MVP caliber player have any weight?

If it did, Shaq would be the best player on our team.

PP and KG are the two most important cogs in this engine in my opinion. You need them both

You were the one mentioning the "KGs Twolves teams". I merely replied to that. If you just want to talk about the now, you shouldn't have mentioned the rest of their careers.

As of now, Garnett is a superior player to Pierce. Without Garnett, the Celtics would be an average defensive team, as they were when Garnett was out for that 1/3 of the season in 2009. Actually, a below average one considering Perkins is gone and Jermaine O'Neal hasn't played. They would be a 40ish wins team. Without Pierce, they could still be a +50 wins team.

[BudweiserCeltic]

Let's just enjoy the dunks
http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/celtics/post/_/id/4681447/pierces-best-dunks-of-the-season

[Birdbrain]

Let's just enjoy the dunks
http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/celtics/post/_/id/4681447/pierces-best-dunks-of-the-season

Love Tommy.  " That is BOGUS!!!"

I love that Peirce did that dunk specifically for payback for KG.

Thanks TP.

The raptor dunk was the best though.

[Celtics4ever]

PP is our most clutch guy and the one I would trust to make two points when we need him.  I think even KG and Ray defer to him in clutch situations.