How about them Memphis Grizzly Bears?

[Moranis]

I really dislike Chris Wallace the GM and his tenure here.   Not to mention giving the Lakers Gasol for a pile of wood chips.

they got their currect starting center, 2 firsts, and at the time a young promising PG.  Not the total highway robbery everyone seems to make it out to be.

Frankly not a whole lot different then the Celtics trade to land Garnett now a few years removed from both.  Sure the C's gave up a better draft pick (Minny's own pick that turned into Flynn), but the total package really wasn't much different.

A low second round pick that turned out okay doesn't make the present value at the time of the trade equal.

In the end McHale/Khan messed it up so in the end Memphis ended up better, but that's not a factor in evaluating the trade.

Unless you believe that Chris Wallace identified that Marc Gasol would lose 40 pounds and suddenly become an average center...

how exactly did McHale/Khan mess it up?  Johnny Flynn wasn't a bad pick (though obviously Curry is better).  The other pick was #28 (and Ellington has been ok).  Green, Telfair, and Gomes just weren't very good.  Jefferson definately looked like a better player then Gasol, but I think most people expected Gasol to be at worst a rotation player (Ainge really liked him) as he had talent and showed it in Europe.

[Fafnir]

I really dislike Chris Wallace the GM and his tenure here.   Not to mention giving the Lakers Gasol for a pile of wood chips.

they got their currect starting center, 2 firsts, and at the time a young promising PG.  Not the total highway robbery everyone seems to make it out to be.

Frankly not a whole lot different then the Celtics trade to land Garnett now a few years removed from both.  Sure the C's gave up a better draft pick (Minny's own pick that turned into Flynn), but the total package really wasn't much different.

A low second round pick that turned out okay doesn't make the present value at the time of the trade equal.

In the end McHale/Khan messed it up so in the end Memphis ended up better, but that's not a factor in evaluating the trade.

Unless you believe that Chris Wallace identified that Marc Gasol would lose 40 pounds and suddenly become an average center...

how exactly did McHale/Khan mess it up?  Johnny Flynn wasn't a bad pick (though obviously Curry is better).  The other pick was #28 (and Ellington has been ok).  Green, Telfair, and Gomes just weren't very good.  Jefferson definately looked like a better player then Gasol, but I think most people expected Gasol to be at worst a rotation player (Ainge really liked him) as he had talent and showed it in Europe.

Flynn was a bad pick, especially after you just took another PG. That pick was protected btw, so it would still be Minnesota's.

They messed up the rest of the team, drafted another PF who couldn't play defense, etc...

Boston gave up a lot more than the Lakers, at the time. The fact that Jefferson blew out his knee and Marc Gasol made a massive leap to become NBA worthy shouldn't factor into your evaluation of the trade.

If Melo blows out his knee Shaun Livingston style does the Knicks trade suddenly become a bad one? You can only go with the information you have at the time.

[Moranis]

Flynn was a bad pick, especially after you just took another PG. That pick was protected btw, so it would still be Minnesota's.

Which means the pick was even lower really, and might have been a second rounder after all the protections (if I recall correctly).  Which in actuality means the trade was essentially Jefferson and a late first for Garnett (the other four players were money or role players at best and everyone knew it).

Flynn wasn't the bad pick, Rubio was the bad pick.  They should have gone Flynn and Curry with those two selections.

They messed up the rest of the team, drafted another PF who couldn't play defense, etc...

No bearing at all on the trade itself.  Jefferson and a late first for Garnett. 

Boston gave up a lot more than the Lakers, at the time. The fact that Jefferson blew out his knee and Marc Gasol made a massive leap to become NBA worthy shouldn't factor into your evaluation of the trade.

Gasol was coming to the NBA that season no matter what.  Sure he got a lot more playing time in Memphis then he would have in L.A., but he was ready and coming and everyone knew it.  Sure no one had any idea how good he would be, but everyone knew he had talent.  Memphis insisted on him being included because they liked what they saw. Jefferson blowing out his knee obviously has no bearing on the trade at the time.  And Jefferson even after it, is still better then Gasol, but he still hasn't developed any defense which could have been predicted.

If Melo blows out his knee Shaun Livingston style does the Knicks trade suddenly become a bad one? You can only go with the information you have at the time.

And the information at the time was Jefferson, a young promising PF who was injury prone, a late first round pick, returning a pick that might have turned into a second rounder anyway, and a bunch of role players for Garnett, vs. a young more unknown but promising center, a young promising PG, and 2 late first round picks for Gasol.

Everyone here was infatuated with Jefferson, who is still the best player involved in those trades (outside of KG and Pau), but the C's really didn't give up that much for Garnett when you really look at the trade.

[Fafnir]

And the information at the time was Jefferson, a young promising PF who was injury prone, a late first round pick, returning a pick that might have turned into a second rounder anyway, and a bunch of role players for Garnett, vs. a young more unknown but promising center, a young promising PG, and 2 late first round picks for Gasol.

Everyone here was infatuated with Jefferson, who is still the best player involved in those trades (outside of KG and Pau), but the C's really didn't give up that much for Garnett when you really look at the trade.

That young PG was no more promising than Gerald Green, or Telfair.

Even your information at the time makes it clear that Lakers didn't give up nearly as much as the C's. All those irrelevants you dismissed above you've in the past used to pump up what the Lakers payed. Your entire view assumes that everyone knew how good Gasol would become.

The C's gave up more prospects, 1 late pick, the best player, and more salary relief. The Lakers gave up 4 late prospects , 2 late picks, and salary relief. The fact that one of the prospects hit (Gasol) didn't give him more value than Green/Telfair at the time.

[KCattheStripe]

And the information at the time was Jefferson, a young promising PF who was injury prone, a late first round pick, returning a pick that might have turned into a second rounder anyway, and a bunch of role players for Garnett, vs. a young more unknown but promising center, a young promising PG, and 2 late first round picks for Gasol.

Everyone here was infatuated with Jefferson, who is still the best player involved in those trades (outside of KG and Pau), but the C's really didn't give up that much for Garnett when you really look at the trade.

That young PG was no more promising than Gerald Green, or Telfair.

Even your information at the time makes it clear that Lakers didn't give up nearly as much as the C's. All those irrelevants you dismissed above you've in the past used to pump up what the Lakers payed. Your entire view assumes that everyone knew how good Gasol would become.

The C's gave up more prospects, 1 late pick, the best player, and more salary relief. The Lakers gave up 4 late prospects , 2 late picks, and salary relief. The fact that one of the prospects hit (Gasol) didn't give him more value than Green/Telfair at the time.

I usually come down on the side that Wallace could have gotten more from the Lakers, but I think it's unfair to say that Green/Telfair had more value than M. Gasol. Neither of them could put up the numbers to be the MVP of the ACB like Gasol was oing that year.

[Fafnir]

And the information at the time was Jefferson, a young promising PF who was injury prone, a late first round pick, returning a pick that might have turned into a second rounder anyway, and a bunch of role players for Garnett, vs. a young more unknown but promising center, a young promising PG, and 2 late first round picks for Gasol.

Everyone here was infatuated with Jefferson, who is still the best player involved in those trades (outside of KG and Pau), but the C's really didn't give up that much for Garnett when you really look at the trade.

That young PG was no more promising than Gerald Green, or Telfair.

Even your information at the time makes it clear that Lakers didn't give up nearly as much as the C's. All those irrelevants you dismissed above you've in the past used to pump up what the Lakers payed. Your entire view assumes that everyone knew how good Gasol would become.

The C's gave up more prospects, 1 late pick, the best player, and more salary relief. The Lakers gave up 4 late prospects , 2 late picks, and salary relief. The fact that one of the prospects hit (Gasol) didn't give him more value than Green/Telfair at the time.

I usually come down on the side that Wallace could have gotten more from the Lakers, but I think it's unfair to say that Green/Telfair had more value than M. Gasol. Neither of them could put up the numbers to be the MVP of the ACB like Gasol was oing that year.

Do you think that Green/Telfair have lasted till the 48th pick of the draft that year?

I don't, after all Glen Davis was a higher second round pick than Gasol. As was Sun Yue and a lot of other players.

[KCattheStripe]

And the information at the time was Jefferson, a young promising PF who was injury prone, a late first round pick, returning a pick that might have turned into a second rounder anyway, and a bunch of role players for Garnett, vs. a young more unknown but promising center, a young promising PG, and 2 late first round picks for Gasol.

Everyone here was infatuated with Jefferson, who is still the best player involved in those trades (outside of KG and Pau), but the C's really didn't give up that much for Garnett when you really look at the trade.

That young PG was no more promising than Gerald Green, or Telfair.

Even your information at the time makes it clear that Lakers didn't give up nearly as much as the C's. All those irrelevants you dismissed above you've in the past used to pump up what the Lakers payed. Your entire view assumes that everyone knew how good Gasol would become.

The C's gave up more prospects, 1 late pick, the best player, and more salary relief. The Lakers gave up 4 late prospects , 2 late picks, and salary relief. The fact that one of the prospects hit (Gasol) didn't give him more value than Green/Telfair at the time.

I usually come down on the side that Wallace could have gotten more from the Lakers, but I think it's unfair to say that Green/Telfair had more value than M. Gasol. Neither of them could put up the numbers to be the MVP of the ACB like Gasol was oing that year.

Do you think that Green/Telfair have lasted till the 48th pick of the draft that year?

I don't, after all Glen Davis was a higher second round pick than Gasol. As was Sun Yue and a lot of other players.

Right, but remember that trade happened mid-season, while he was on his way to becoming the MVP of the ACB. He was drafted before that season while he was still 20 years old and had some weight and motivation concerns. I think it's silly to think that GMs don't pay attention to foreign leagues, especially that one, just because we don't. So when Gasol was traded I think his value was much higher than Green or Telfair's all though it had been lower that summer.

[Fafnir]

And the information at the time was Jefferson, a young promising PF who was injury prone, a late first round pick, returning a pick that might have turned into a second rounder anyway, and a bunch of role players for Garnett, vs. a young more unknown but promising center, a young promising PG, and 2 late first round picks for Gasol.

Everyone here was infatuated with Jefferson, who is still the best player involved in those trades (outside of KG and Pau), but the C's really didn't give up that much for Garnett when you really look at the trade.

That young PG was no more promising than Gerald Green, or Telfair.

Even your information at the time makes it clear that Lakers didn't give up nearly as much as the C's. All those irrelevants you dismissed above you've in the past used to pump up what the Lakers payed. Your entire view assumes that everyone knew how good Gasol would become.

The C's gave up more prospects, 1 late pick, the best player, and more salary relief. The Lakers gave up 4 late prospects , 2 late picks, and salary relief. The fact that one of the prospects hit (Gasol) didn't give him more value than Green/Telfair at the time.

I usually come down on the side that Wallace could have gotten more from the Lakers, but I think it's unfair to say that Green/Telfair had more value than M. Gasol. Neither of them could put up the numbers to be the MVP of the ACB like Gasol was oing that year.

Do you think that Green/Telfair have lasted till the 48th pick of the draft that year?

I don't, after all Glen Davis was a higher second round pick than Gasol. As was Sun Yue and a lot of other players.

Right, but remember that trade happened mid-season, while he was on his way to becoming the MVP of the ACB. He was drafted before that season while he was still 20 years old and had some weight and motivation concerns. I think it's silly to think that GMs don't pay attention to foreign leagues, especially that one, just because we don't. So when Gasol was traded I think his value was much higher than Green or Telfair's all though it had been lower that summer.

I don't think his value was that much higher to the point where he was far above high/mid first round talent.

Especially when their own GM made several statments saying that they were unsure whether or not he'd come to the NBA.

[Moranis]

And the information at the time was Jefferson, a young promising PF who was injury prone, a late first round pick, returning a pick that might have turned into a second rounder anyway, and a bunch of role players for Garnett, vs. a young more unknown but promising center, a young promising PG, and 2 late first round picks for Gasol.

Everyone here was infatuated with Jefferson, who is still the best player involved in those trades (outside of KG and Pau), but the C's really didn't give up that much for Garnett when you really look at the trade.

That young PG was no more promising than Gerald Green, or Telfair.

Even your information at the time makes it clear that Lakers didn't give up nearly as much as the C's. All those irrelevants you dismissed above you've in the past used to pump up what the Lakers payed. Your entire view assumes that everyone knew how good Gasol would become.

The C's gave up more prospects, 1 late pick, the best player, and more salary relief. The Lakers gave up 4 late prospects , 2 late picks, and salary relief. The fact that one of the prospects hit (Gasol) didn't give him more value than Green/Telfair at the time.

I usually come down on the side that Wallace could have gotten more from the Lakers, but I think it's unfair to say that Green/Telfair had more value than M. Gasol. Neither of them could put up the numbers to be the MVP of the ACB like Gasol was oing that year.

Do you think that Green/Telfair have lasted till the 48th pick of the draft that year?

I don't, after all Glen Davis was a higher second round pick than Gasol. As was Sun Yue and a lot of other players.

If Gasol played high school in the U.S. do you think he would have lasted past pick #10?  Europeans are always undervalued because there is a good chance they stay overseas, just like Gasol did and there is far more unknown since they are overseas.  

When the trade was made, Gasol was in the midst of a season that would crown him MVP of the ACB.  He led that league in rebounds at 8.4 and was contributing 16.6 ppg (good for third).  They were about the mid-point of their season at the time, and as I'm sure you know the ACB is widely regarded as the second best league in the world and Gasol was its best player.  To put him in the same catgory as Green and Telfair is ridiculous especially given Gasol's size.  

[Moranis]

And the information at the time was Jefferson, a young promising PF who was injury prone, a late first round pick, returning a pick that might have turned into a second rounder anyway, and a bunch of role players for Garnett, vs. a young more unknown but promising center, a young promising PG, and 2 late first round picks for Gasol.

Everyone here was infatuated with Jefferson, who is still the best player involved in those trades (outside of KG and Pau), but the C's really didn't give up that much for Garnett when you really look at the trade.

That young PG was no more promising than Gerald Green, or Telfair.

Even your information at the time makes it clear that Lakers didn't give up nearly as much as the C's. All those irrelevants you dismissed above you've in the past used to pump up what the Lakers payed. Your entire view assumes that everyone knew how good Gasol would become.

The C's gave up more prospects, 1 late pick, the best player, and more salary relief. The Lakers gave up 4 late prospects , 2 late picks, and salary relief. The fact that one of the prospects hit (Gasol) didn't give him more value than Green/Telfair at the time.

I usually come down on the side that Wallace could have gotten more from the Lakers, but I think it's unfair to say that Green/Telfair had more value than M. Gasol. Neither of them could put up the numbers to be the MVP of the ACB like Gasol was oing that year.

Do you think that Green/Telfair have lasted till the 48th pick of the draft that year?

I don't, after all Glen Davis was a higher second round pick than Gasol. As was Sun Yue and a lot of other players.

Right, but remember that trade happened mid-season, while he was on his way to becoming the MVP of the ACB. He was drafted before that season while he was still 20 years old and had some weight and motivation concerns. I think it's silly to think that GMs don't pay attention to foreign leagues, especially that one, just because we don't. So when Gasol was traded I think his value was much higher than Green or Telfair's all though it had been lower that summer.

I don't think his value was that much higher to the point where he was far above high/mid first round talent.

Especially when their own GM made several statments saying that they were unsure whether or not he'd come to the NBA.

That is always the risk with Europeans, but Gasol made it clear he wanted to play in the NBA and his team was having financial problems (not sure if it was known at the time of the trade or not, but were known soon after that season ended).

[KCattheStripe]

And the information at the time was Jefferson, a young promising PF who was injury prone, a late first round pick, returning a pick that might have turned into a second rounder anyway, and a bunch of role players for Garnett, vs. a young more unknown but promising center, a young promising PG, and 2 late first round picks for Gasol.

Everyone here was infatuated with Jefferson, who is still the best player involved in those trades (outside of KG and Pau), but the C's really didn't give up that much for Garnett when you really look at the trade.

That young PG was no more promising than Gerald Green, or Telfair.

Even your information at the time makes it clear that Lakers didn't give up nearly as much as the C's. All those irrelevants you dismissed above you've in the past used to pump up what the Lakers payed. Your entire view assumes that everyone knew how good Gasol would become.

The C's gave up more prospects, 1 late pick, the best player, and more salary relief. The Lakers gave up 4 late prospects , 2 late picks, and salary relief. The fact that one of the prospects hit (Gasol) didn't give him more value than Green/Telfair at the time.

I usually come down on the side that Wallace could have gotten more from the Lakers, but I think it's unfair to say that Green/Telfair had more value than M. Gasol. Neither of them could put up the numbers to be the MVP of the ACB like Gasol was oing that year.

Do you think that Green/Telfair have lasted till the 48th pick of the draft that year?

I don't, after all Glen Davis was a higher second round pick than Gasol. As was Sun Yue and a lot of other players.

Right, but remember that trade happened mid-season, while he was on his way to becoming the MVP of the ACB. He was drafted before that season while he was still 20 years old and had some weight and motivation concerns. I think it's silly to think that GMs don't pay attention to foreign leagues, especially that one, just because we don't. So when Gasol was traded I think his value was much higher than Green or Telfair's all though it had been lower that summer.

I don't think his value was that much higher to the point where he was far above high/mid first round talent.

Especially when their own GM made several statments saying that they were unsure whether or not he'd come to the NBA.

Mid first round talent that had produced nothing but a dunk contest win, despite plenty of opportunities. Meanwhile Gasol was the best player in the second best league in the world.

[Fafnir]

And the information at the time was Jefferson, a young promising PF who was injury prone, a late first round pick, returning a pick that might have turned into a second rounder anyway, and a bunch of role players for Garnett, vs. a young more unknown but promising center, a young promising PG, and 2 late first round picks for Gasol.

Everyone here was infatuated with Jefferson, who is still the best player involved in those trades (outside of KG and Pau), but the C's really didn't give up that much for Garnett when you really look at the trade.

That young PG was no more promising than Gerald Green, or Telfair.

Even your information at the time makes it clear that Lakers didn't give up nearly as much as the C's. All those irrelevants you dismissed above you've in the past used to pump up what the Lakers payed. Your entire view assumes that everyone knew how good Gasol would become.

The C's gave up more prospects, 1 late pick, the best player, and more salary relief. The Lakers gave up 4 late prospects , 2 late picks, and salary relief. The fact that one of the prospects hit (Gasol) didn't give him more value than Green/Telfair at the time.

I usually come down on the side that Wallace could have gotten more from the Lakers, but I think it's unfair to say that Green/Telfair had more value than M. Gasol. Neither of them could put up the numbers to be the MVP of the ACB like Gasol was oing that year.

Do you think that Green/Telfair have lasted till the 48th pick of the draft that year?

I don't, after all Glen Davis was a higher second round pick than Gasol. As was Sun Yue and a lot of other players.

If Gasol played high school in the U.S. do you think he would have lasted past pick #10?  Europeans are always undervalued because there is a good chance they stay overseas, just like Gasol did and there is far more unknown since they are overseas.  

When the trade was made, Gasol was in the midst of a season that would crown him MVP of the ACB.  He led that league in rebounds at 8.4 and was contributing 16.6 ppg (good for third).  They were about the mid-point of their season at the time, and as I'm sure you know the ACB is widely regarded as the second best league in the world and Gasol was its best player.  To put him in the same catgory as Green and Telfair is ridiculous especially given Gasol's size.  

*sigh*

We're not getting anywhere. Keep pushing your hindsight based fallacy that Marc Gasol was a huge piece that made the Gasol trade anything other than a heist at the time.

It worked out for Memphis, but it was still a terrible salary dump at the time.

[Fafnir]

Mid first round talent that had produced nothing but a dunk contest win, despite plenty of opportunities. Meanwhile Gasol was the best player in the second best league in the world.

Who Chris Wallace was only 50-50 to get to come over, and also was still viewed as a low level big man prospect for the NBA.

Even now that he's exceeded the expecations of almost everyone he's an average starting center.

There is a whole lot of hindsight being applied to make an awful salary dump forced upon the GM by a cheap owner smell like a rose.

[StartOrien]

I won't proffess to know much about any international leagues, however I do remember at the time that the quick summary of Marc Gasol was that he was Pau Gasol's significantly less talented brother.

That being said, at the point of the trade - to various degrees - Bassy and Gerald were both "Maybe, but probably not" prospects, stock on both of them had dropped pretty significantly in the year leading up to the trade.

At the end of the day, the Garnett trade makes a lot more sense to me - even if it didn't really work out.

[StartOrien]

BTW, Jonny Flynn was a miserable pick, and I think it's been so discussed that we often forget just how terrible it was.I'd argue that its probably one of the worst five picks in the history of the draft.