Didn't realize how bad and worthless a Player Perk is until today

[BballTim]

Perkins didn't sign the fair contract offer.

I don't think even Danny Ainge thought it was a fair contract offer.  It's the offer mandated by the CBA, but $23.4 million over four years for a starting center in his prime is not even close to fair market value.

I disagree. For what a player like Perkins brings(defense, rebounding), it's more than fair. He doesn't deserve what he's wanting, especially coming off a major knee injury . You can't pay him what he's wanting when your winning games without him with Shaq, JO, and Semih at the position.

  Half the teams in the league would love to sign a player like Perk for more money than we offered him, starting with the Heat. OKC will offer him well more than Danny did. You might not value defense and rebounding from a center, but nba teams do.

Don't put words in my mouth.  I do value defense and rebounding.

  Well, you seem to "value" defense and rebounding to the point that you'd be unwilling to pay much more that half what the average nba team would pay for it, less money than many journeyman wings and guards that their previous teams don't bother to re-sign tend to get.

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Perkins didn't sign the fair contract offer.

I don't think even Danny Ainge thought it was a fair contract offer.  It's the offer mandated by the CBA, but $23.4 million over four years for a starting center in his prime is not even close to fair market value.

Disagree.  Average rebounder (for a C), zero offense, great defense makes him a specialist/role player.  $5+ million/year sounds about right, especially factoring in a significant and ongoing injury history.  He never averaged as much as 30 minutes/game, either.

Teams paying similar players more than that pretty much come to regret it quickly, or they're not able to get some other piece that they need to win.  Overpaying role players, even great ones, leads to early playoff exits.  Simply because bad contracts abound doesn't mean it is wise to follow suit.

Thank heaven Danny is a bit sharper than the rest of us on these things, eh?

  Just to give this a little perspective, I went to hoopdata to get per40 minute scoring for centers (09-10 season, when Perk played). Looked at centers that played more than 40 games and more than 20 minutes a game. The average center in that list scores about 16 points in 40 minutes and shoots about 52% from the floor. Perk gets 14.7 on just over 60% shooting. Players that scored less than Perk included Okafor, Dalembert, Noah, Haywood, Chandler and Dampier. How much do some of those guys get paid? $5M might sound  about right to you but it's clearly well below market value. I'm reminded of the people who felt that $5M-$7M a year was more than fair for a player with shooting woes like Rondo.

Those guys play a different role on their respective teams, of course.  Dampier was injured, I think, and none of the teams those players played on had any chance whatsoever of winning a ring that year, which is a large part of my point:  

Let some other team overpay.  It's pretty rare that a team can put together a contending roster with big money tied up in role players.

[droponov]

I'll say it again as I said before on here and/or on realgm..that Kwame Brown could have done what Perkins did for the Cs.  Perkins is nothing special, but he DID do his job.  Others can do the type of job Perk did, though not sure he is on the roster at the moment.  I wanted us to sign Kwame this past offseason for peanuts instead of JO... but now he'll probably cost 4-5 million per.

  Kwame is one of the best low post defenders in the game? Really?

No, not at Perkins' level, but he's still pretty good. He'd have been a great option.

Just wondering, but what are you suggesting here?

Nothing really, just commenting on Kwame. It'd have been a great move to buy him low last Summer, I agree with that poster in that respect. He would make a very good backup center for a contender.

[droponov]

Defensive specialists are Joel Anthony and Eric Dampier.

Perkins is a fairly better player than those guys - defensively but also offensively. He's good enough of a pick setter/roller, finisher and passer to not be the offensive liability some of those guys are.

[bbd24]

Bballtim, You don't even know what half the league would pay Perk. On this team, he isn't worth 10M per. I'm unwilling to pay role players that when players like Shaq come in and beat guys like Perkins out for their position.

Perkins and his Bernard King knees are worth 5M per. Perkins can always be upgraded. Especially when the upgrade has KG alongside him.

[drza44]

This has been an interesting discussion.  I'd chime in on a couple of on-going topics:

1) Kwame Brown.  A couple pages back, someone suggested that Kwame Brown could have filled Perk's role here.  Someone else responded, incredulously, that "Kwame is one of the best low post defenders in the game? Really?".  And then there have been a couple more follow-ups, kind of backing off the original statement and saying that Kwame is an ok defender, though not Perk, and then it's faded out.

My take: Kwame Brown COULD have played Perk's role here.  I like Perk's attitude and edge more, so I'd have preferred him.  But Kwame could absolutely have given the solid positional D, adequate rebounding and defensive role player mindset that Perk gave us.  

The problem, IMO, is the statement of Perk being one of the "best low-post defenders" in the game.  It may be true, but it's misleading in that it makes that role sound more important than it is.  An impact defensive big man isn't an impact defensive big man because of his 1-on-1 low-post defense, especially in this league.  There are too few volume low-post scorers for this to be a huge difference maker.  Instead, the value in big man defense is in their ability to anchor the defense, providing elite help-defense in the paint.  That is NOT the same thing as low-post defense.

Perk is a good low-post defender because he is able to use his low center of gravity, strength and long arms to make post-up scoring difficult.  But the difference between he and someone like Kwame Brown in that particular skill-set is negligible in terms of overall impact, because that particular skill set isn't nearly as important in the scheme of things as help defense and rebounding.  And in those areas, yes, Kwame is just as good as Perk.

2) Perk's "fair value". Again, interesting conversation, and depends a lot on what you mean by "fair".  I agree with those that say that Perk could and likely will get more on the open market than what the Celtics offered him.  By the same token, I also agree with those that point out that this doesn't mean that his play actually warranted that type of deal.  As I mention in point 1, I think that much of what Perk provided was replaceable with players that would cost much less than what Perk will get.  Thus, "fair" market value almost has to be divided into 2 separate categories.  Perk's "fair" market value is more than what the team offered.  But the TEAM'S "fair market value" for the production that they got from Perk is likely LESS than what they offered him.  In essence, I think both sides are right.  And wrong.  And that at the end of the day, it's likely best for both sides that the trade was made and now each side is free to pursue a more equitable wage per contribution as dictated by the market.

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This has been an interesting discussion.  I'd chime in on a couple of on-going topics:

1) Kwame Brown.  A couple pages back, someone suggested that Kwame Brown could have filled Perk's role here.  Someone else responded, incredulously, that "Kwame is one of the best low post defenders in the game? Really?".  And then there have been a couple more follow-ups, kind of backing off the original statement and saying that Kwame is an ok defender, though not Perk, and then it's faded out.

My take: Kwame Brown COULD have played Perk's role here.  I like Perk's attitude and edge more, so I'd have preferred him.  But Kwame could absolutely have given the solid positional D, adequate rebounding and defensive role player mindset that Perk gave us.  

The problem, IMO, is the statement of Perk being one of the "best low-post defenders" in the game.  It may be true, but it's misleading in that it makes that role sound more important than it is.  An impact defensive big man isn't an impact defensive big man because of his 1-on-1 low-post defense, especially in this league.  There are too few volume low-post scorers for this to be a huge difference maker.  Instead, the value in big man defense is in their ability to anchor the defense, providing elite help-defense in the paint.  That is NOT the same thing as low-post defense.

Perk is a good low-post defender because he is able to use his low center of gravity, strength and long arms to make post-up scoring difficult.  But the difference between he and someone like Kwame Brown in that particular skill-set is negligible in terms of overall impact, because that particular skill set isn't nearly as important in the scheme of things as help defense and rebounding.  And in those areas, yes, Kwame is just as good as Perk.

2) Perk's "fair value". Again, interesting conversation, and depends a lot on what you mean by "fair".  I agree with those that say that Perk could and likely will get more on the open market than what the Celtics offered him.  By the same token, I also agree with those that point out that this doesn't mean that his play actually warranted that type of deal.  As I mention in point 1, I think that much of what Perk provided was replaceable with players that would cost much less than what Perk will get.  Thus, "fair" market value almost has to be divided into 2 separate categories.  Perk's "fair" market value is more than what the team offered.  But the TEAM'S "fair market value" for the production that they got from Perk is likely LESS than what they offered him.  In essence, I think both sides are right.  And wrong.  And that at the end of the day, it's likely best for both sides that the trade was made and now each side is free to pursue a more equitable wage per contribution as dictated by the market.

Thanks for this.  I think it's what I was trying to say.

EDIT:  I think Perk and his agent would like to compare him to Camby, Chandler, Okafor, and Noah, and the team would compare him to McDyess, Darko, and Birdman, each of whom make around or less than $5 million.

Another comparison might be Diop and Nazr M., both of whom got the MLE and aren't worth it.  That might support a value for Perk closer to $5 million as well.

But on THIS team, there are surely players getting even the minimum that could fill the role adequately (e.g. Kwame, Shaq).

[BballTim]

Bballtim, You don't even know what half the league would pay Perk. On this team, he isn't worth 10M per. I'm unwilling to pay role players that when players like Shaq come in and beat guys like Perkins out for their position.

Perkins and his Bernard King knees are worth 5M per. Perkins can always be upgraded. Especially when the upgrade has KG alongside him.

  Haha. Shaq "beat Perk out for his position" when Perk was out of the lineup with a knee injury, and Doc was saying (while Shaq was starting) that Perk would start for us when he was ready to play. And, no, I don't know specifically what half the league would pay Perk. What I do know is that a lot of teams were said to be targeting Perk this offseason, and it doesn't take a genius to figure out that  players (especially bigs) that have multiple suitors generally get at least the MLE. I also know that players like Brad Miller, Sheed, JO, Shaq, McDyess and the like all have no problem getting multiple offers for the MLE. Personally I feel that assuming he wouldn't get offers as good or better than these players is a little ridiculous.

[makaveli]

What if Perk would have an "Ben Wallace" type of carer...Ben was amazing for a few years(perk was never close to amazing but he had a similar role), signed a big money deal in CHI and ever since was nothing and nobody...He was overrated so it might be the case with Perk.

[BballTim]

The problem, IMO, is the statement of Perk being one of the "best low-post defenders" in the game.  It may be true, but it's misleading in that it makes that role sound more important than it is.  An impact defensive big man isn't an impact defensive big man because of his 1-on-1 low-post defense, especially in this league.  There are too few volume low-post scorers for this to be a huge difference maker.  Instead, the value in big man defense is in their ability to anchor the defense, providing elite help-defense in the paint.  That is NOT the same thing as low-post defense.

  There's also something to be said for a center that can handle players 1v1 in the post. Any time a team has to send in a second player to help out down low it frees up three point shooting. Orlando is an extreme example of this, but they aren't the only team that does this.

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Bballtim, You don't even know what half the league would pay Perk. On this team, he isn't worth 10M per. I'm unwilling to pay role players that when players like Shaq come in and beat guys like Perkins out for their position.

Perkins and his Bernard King knees are worth 5M per. Perkins can always be upgraded. Especially when the upgrade has KG alongside him.

  Haha. Shaq "beat Perk out for his position" when Perk was out of the lineup with a knee injury, and Doc was saying (while Shaq was starting) that Perk would start for us when he was ready to play. And, no, I don't know specifically what half the league would pay Perk. What I do know is that a lot of teams were said to be targeting Perk this offseason, and it doesn't take a genius to figure out that  players (especially bigs) that have multiple suitors generally get at least the MLE. I also know that players like Brad Miller, Sheed, JO, Shaq, McDyess and the like all have no problem getting multiple offers for the MLE. Personally I feel that assuming he wouldn't get offers as good or better than these players is a little ridiculous.

Perk was offered an amount in line with or above what Brad Miller and McDyess are making right now, more than Darko (a good comparison, skills wise, to Perk, IMO), and more than Birdman and slightly lesser players like Pachulia or rotation guys with different skillsets like Bonner.

And the Sheed and JO MLE signings are examples of a team looking for that missing piece, which inflates value by creating a seller's market.  Diop and Nazr also got the MLE, as did Blount (or MLE-level money), but in each case it wasn't a good idea.

While I agree that Danny would have gone higher if the rules allowed, it's not like he was presented with insulting numbers or anything.  He would've been able to feed his family, and if he wanted to remain a Celtic, he should have just signed.

[droponov]

The value of role-players is always dependent on the situation they're in.

Perkins is a fairly better player than Nazr Mohammed or a shot-blocking/rebounding specialist like Diop.

Obviously he isn't as good as Noah - who signed a $60 millions extension, not a $30 millions one - or Chandler, but for some teams his contributions, his skill-set, can be almost as valuable.

I also don't think Kwame could entirely replace Perkins contributions. I think Perkins is clearly a better defender than Brown, much better rim protector, less of an offensive liability.

Anyway, the value of the players depends on their skill-set and the needs of the team. An overpaid role-player for one team is another team's bargain.

[BballTim]

Bballtim, You don't even know what half the league would pay Perk. On this team, he isn't worth 10M per. I'm unwilling to pay role players that when players like Shaq come in and beat guys like Perkins out for their position.

Perkins and his Bernard King knees are worth 5M per. Perkins can always be upgraded. Especially when the upgrade has KG alongside him.

  Haha. Shaq "beat Perk out for his position" when Perk was out of the lineup with a knee injury, and Doc was saying (while Shaq was starting) that Perk would start for us when he was ready to play. And, no, I don't know specifically what half the league would pay Perk. What I do know is that a lot of teams were said to be targeting Perk this offseason, and it doesn't take a genius to figure out that  players (especially bigs) that have multiple suitors generally get at least the MLE. I also know that players like Brad Miller, Sheed, JO, Shaq, McDyess and the like all have no problem getting multiple offers for the MLE. Personally I feel that assuming he wouldn't get offers as good or better than these players is a little ridiculous.

Perk was offered an amount in line with or above what Brad Miller and McDyess are making right now, more than Darko (a good comparison, skills wise, to Perk, IMO), and more than Birdman and slightly lesser players like Pachulia or rotation guys with different skillsets like Bonner.

  Without checking I'll guess he was offered less than those players as his offer was well below what Posey got a few years ago. And Perk is substantially better than Miller or McDyess are, so one would assume his vaue would be substantially higher.

[nba is the worst]

Bballtim, You don't even know what half the league would pay Perk. On this team, he isn't worth 10M per. I'm unwilling to pay role players that when players like Shaq come in and beat guys like Perkins out for their position.

Perkins and his Bernard King knees are worth 5M per. Perkins can always be upgraded. Especially when the upgrade has KG alongside him.

  Haha. Shaq "beat Perk out for his position" when Perk was out of the lineup with a knee injury, and Doc was saying (while Shaq was starting) that Perk would start for us when he was ready to play. And, no, I don't know specifically what half the league would pay Perk. What I do know is that a lot of teams were said to be targeting Perk this offseason, and it doesn't take a genius to figure out that  players (especially bigs) that have multiple suitors generally get at least the MLE. I also know that players like Brad Miller, Sheed, JO, Shaq, McDyess and the like all have no problem getting multiple offers for the MLE. Personally I feel that assuming he wouldn't get offers as good or better than these players is a little ridiculous.

Perk was offered an amount in line with or above what Brad Miller and McDyess are making right now, more than Darko (a good comparison, skills wise, to Perk, IMO), and more than Birdman and slightly lesser players like Pachulia or rotation guys with different skillsets like Bonner.

And the Sheed and JO MLE signings are examples of a team looking for that missing piece, which inflates value by creating a seller's market.  Diop and Nazr also got the MLE, as did Blount (or MLE-level money), but in each case it wasn't a good idea.

While I agree that Danny would have gone higher if the rules allowed, it's not like he was presented with insulting numbers or anything.  He would've been able to feed his family, and if he wanted to remain a Celtic, he should have just signed.

How old are Miller, Mcdyess, Nazr, and Diop? 34, 36, 33, 29.

Moeover, how can you be sure DA would not have traded Perk even if he had signed the (below market) extension?

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Bballtim, You don't even know what half the league would pay Perk. On this team, he isn't worth 10M per. I'm unwilling to pay role players that when players like Shaq come in and beat guys like Perkins out for their position.

Perkins and his Bernard King knees are worth 5M per. Perkins can always be upgraded. Especially when the upgrade has KG alongside him.

  Haha. Shaq "beat Perk out for his position" when Perk was out of the lineup with a knee injury, and Doc was saying (while Shaq was starting) that Perk would start for us when he was ready to play. And, no, I don't know specifically what half the league would pay Perk. What I do know is that a lot of teams were said to be targeting Perk this offseason, and it doesn't take a genius to figure out that  players (especially bigs) that have multiple suitors generally get at least the MLE. I also know that players like Brad Miller, Sheed, JO, Shaq, McDyess and the like all have no problem getting multiple offers for the MLE. Personally I feel that assuming he wouldn't get offers as good or better than these players is a little ridiculous.

Perk was offered an amount in line with or above what Brad Miller and McDyess are making right now, more than Darko (a good comparison, skills wise, to Perk, IMO), and more than Birdman and slightly lesser players like Pachulia or rotation guys with different skillsets like Bonner.

And the Sheed and JO MLE signings are examples of a team looking for that missing piece, which inflates value by creating a seller's market.  Diop and Nazr also got the MLE, as did Blount (or MLE-level money), but in each case it wasn't a good idea.

While I agree that Danny would have gone higher if the rules allowed, it's not like he was presented with insulting numbers or anything.  He would've been able to feed his family, and if he wanted to remain a Celtic, he should have just signed.

How old are Miller, Mcdyess, Nazr, and Diop? 34, 36, 33, 29.

Moeover, how can you be sure DA would not have traded Perk even if he had signed the (below market) extension?

True.  For Green and a Clips pick, I'd have probably traded him anyway.  Too good of an offer...

But, hypothetically, Darko has a similar skill set, is healthy, is signed for less than Perk was offered, and yet it was considered a bad signing by quite a few people at the time. 

Perk's signifiant injury concerns themselves (past and ongoing) are cause to warrant such comparisons to older players, and should significantly limit his price.