Jeff Green

[Who]

Let me ask a hypothetical question.

What if the Cavs had landed the #1 pick and took LeBron.. but then also managed to bring in the 3rd pick and took Melo (too talented not to)...

Then lets say they realized "crap... we can't play Bron at SG and we can't play Melo at SG... they are both SFs... lets just stick Melo at PF"

Does Melo succeed?

Yes

[jambr380]

Let me ask a hypothetical question.

What if the Cavs had landed the #1 pick and took LeBron.. but then also managed to bring in the 3rd pick and took Melo (too talented not to)...

Then lets say they realized "crap... we can't play Bron at SG and we can't play Melo at SG... they are both SFs... lets just stick Melo at PF"

Does Melo succeed?

Yes

Of course he would succeed, but to what extent? Would he be as good as he has become? I tend to agree with Larbrd33 here in a lot of ways. Will Jeff Green become Melo? Probably not, but that wasn't his point. He is a very good player who has been asked to play a position out of his comfort zone for years now, without complaining. His role in the next year and half is very clear, but who knows what he will become after that (and if we will even keep him). I will miss Perk, but certainly don't see this as a horrible trade for the Celtics, like many here. It's pretty even from both sides and we even got a [decent] first round pick.

[LarBrd33]

Let me ask a hypothetical question.

What if the Cavs had landed the #1 pick and took LeBron.. but then also managed to bring in the 3rd pick and took Melo (too talented not to)...

Then lets say they realized "crap... we can't play Bron at SG and we can't play Melo at SG... they are both SFs... lets just stick Melo at PF"

Does Melo succeed?

Yes

Of course he would succeed, but to what extent? Would he be as good as he has become? I tend to agree with Larbrd33 here in a lot of ways. Will Jeff Green become Melo? Probably not, but that wasn't his point. He is a very good player who has been asked to play a position out of his comfort zone for years now, without complaining. His role in the next year and half is very clear, but who knows what he will become after that (and if we will even keep him). I will miss Perk, but certainly don't see this as a horrible trade for the Celtics, like many here. It's pretty even from both sides and we even got a [decent] first round pick.

It's a bad example, because Bron is god-like and Melo is too talented a scorer... a better example would be something like... what if Danny Granger had been drafted by the Mavericks and they decided they had to play him at PF since Dirk played his natural position.  Can't see Granger being the fringe all-star he is if he were struggling along pretending to be a big man.   That's Jeff Green in OKC.

[Who]

Jeff Green had a major advantage on the offensive end of the floor at the power forward position on a nightly basis in Oklahoma. A guy with his skill-set is a nightmare to guard at the four. Too quick, too athletic, too talented.

Yet, he consistently failed to take advantage of that.

Now, in terms of defense and rebounding, he clearly was out of position and unable to compete at the PF position on a full time basis. I have no issues with his weak play here and have been impressed with his contributions while at SF. No concerns here.

It's the offensive end of the court, the failure to take advantage of the opportunities he had, which doesn't fill me with confidence ... especially since I think he has less of an advantage at the three offensively (although I still consider it his best position).

[jr_3421]

Assuming we sign troy murphy, does that change anyone's opinion on the trade?

[Celtics4ever]

15 pts a game when you have two players like Westbrook and Durant isn't bad, Who.  He was the third option and those aren't bad numbers at all for such a young team.

Green was clearly the best player in the trade.  That means we've come out ahead in the deal.

[BballTim]

Jeff Green had a major advantage on the offensive end of the floor at the power forward position on a nightly basis in Oklahoma. A guy with his skill-set is a nightmare to guard at the four. Too quick, too athletic, too talented.

Yet, he consistently failed to take advantage of that.

Now, in terms of defense and rebounding, he clearly was out of position and unable to compete at the PF position on a full time basis. I have no issues with his weak play here and have been impressed with his contributions while at SF. No concerns here.

It's the offensive end of the court, the failure to take advantage of the opportunities he had, which doesn't fill me with confidence ... especially since I think he has less of an advantage at the three offensively (although I still consider it his best position).

  He was on the court with Westbrook (#3) and Durant (#9) who are both neat the top of the league in usage. Those two combine to use almost as high a percentage of their team's possessions and LeBron and Wade.

[LilRip]

Seriously the majority of this forum is gonzo right now.

Last year we finished with the same record as OKC... this year we have only won 6 games more.  And yet... the thunder trade their 3rd best player for our 5th-7th best player and everyone has a collective spasm.

Kinda like when Posey left and everyone was convinced he was the 4th most important player on our 08 title team.  Or when we let an injured Powe walk and everyone said Danny Ainge was heartless.  We'll survive.  Perk's a limited skill big man who has had 7+ years to learn the Celtics system and fit into a very specific role.   Everyone needs to be reminded that the reason this team wins is because of Kevin Garnett... then Pierce, Rondo and Ray.  Perk was a role player.  He's not that skilled, not that athletic.  He's never averaged double digit rebounds... and because he had some success limiting Dwight a few times and fit in well in KG's defense, people consider him a superstar defender now. 

Danny Ainge was smart enough to realize how inflated Perk's stock was.  If you're a recognizable cog on a championship team, your stock will rise above value.  It's just the way it works.  Luk Longley made 30 million by some sucker team who fooled themselves into thinking he was an important part of the Bulls title teams.   Ainge is aware of this.  He tried to shop Perk for a top pick a couple years ago, but nobody would bite. 

I tried to find the thread (might not have been on this forum), but I think it was when the Celtics were looking to move Ray Allen's expiring contract.  One of the many ideas I thought of was moving Ray's expiring contract to the Clippers for Baron Davis and Chris Kaman... rationalizing that the Clippers were desperate to dump Baron's horrible contract and theoretically would part with Kaman to do it.  I suggested that maybe the Clippers would would buy out Ray in that scenario and he could rejoin it, but I then came up with a "way out of left field" follow-up... in that the Celtics could then try to sucker the Thunder in trading Jeff Green for Perk... rationalizing that Jeff Green was a super talented SF who needed out of Durant's shadow... and perhaps the Thunder would downgrade talent in order to fill their DESPERATE need for a legit big man (Perk).  Nutty trade scenario would have left us with PG - ROndo, SG - Pierce, SF - JEff Green, - PF - Garnett and C - Kaman with Baron Davis as a super over-paid 6th man.

Sure that was a nutty trade idea, but my reaction to the trade last week was "Wow... my logic was sound on the Green for Perk thing"...  OKC gave up their 3rd most talented player to fill a desperate need.    I don't believe Boston has that desperate need (survived fine without him this year because of our big man additions).  We can plug the Perk hole in a number of ways... taking advantage of OKC's desperate situation was a brilliant move by Ainge and eventually people will realize this.   It's just a shame that Ainge has been unsuccessful in suckering a team into taking Glen Davis and his similarly overly-inflated stock.
 
Big note:  I do agree that we would have won the title last year had Perk played game 7.  However... that's mainly because we had no legit big man other than Perk.  We got killed on the boards.  This year, Ainge over-compensated by signing both O'Neals... and it appears he's going to bring in Powe and maybe Murphy as well.   Put Shaq in game 7 and we would have won it too.  Put healthy Jermaine in game 7 and we would have won it too.  Put Murphy in game 7 (the guy can board) and we would have won it too.   We had a desperate need for a big man in game 7 that we don't have today.  I see that need filled now... so I am fully on board of robbing the Thunder of a talented player who didn't fit in with their roster. 

TP

and yes, melo will succeed in your hypothetical, but not on the defensive end. but then again, even if Melo played the 3, he still doesn't succeed on the defensive end. lol. i see what you're saying though and the team who comes away with the best player in the trade is often the one who comes out on top. i think this trade may defy that logic because of how specialized Perk is (kinda like how the Spurs would've had a tough time replacing Bowen back in the day for someone who's more offensively polished) but hopefully i am wrong.

[droponov]

The fact that he was a 3rd option doesn't excuse his pedestrian efficiency (or his lack of playmaking contributions). Au contraire. He should have been a more efficient and prolific player because of Westbrook and Durant. His usage rate has been stable above 19% since he entered the league. He can't expect to get more touches and shots in Boston, quite the contrary: Daniels and Wafer have usage rates much lower, in the 15-16% territory.

I think there are some reasons to be optimistic about Green becoming a better offensive player but none related to the number of possessions he can use.

[Fafnir]

Let me ask a hypothetical question.

What if the Cavs had landed the #1 pick and took LeBron.. but then also managed to bring in the 3rd pick and took Melo (too talented not to)...

Then lets say they realized "crap... we can't play Bron at SG and we can't play Melo at SG... they are both SFs... lets just stick Melo at PF"

Does Melo succeed?

Yes

Plus they'd have LeBron defend PFs, not Melo.

[LooseCannon]

The fact that he was a 3rd option doesn't excuse his pedestrian efficiency (or his lack of playmaking contributions). Au contraire. He should have been a more efficient and prolific player because of Westbrook and Durant. His usage rate has been stable above 19% since he entered the league. He can't expect to get more touches and shots in Boston, quite the contrary: Daniels and Wafer have usage rates much lower, in the 15-16% territory.

I expect him to take away touches and shots from Glen Davis, whose usage is up to 20.6% this season.  For the rest of the season, if used properly, Green should have a higher usage rate than BBD.

[droponov]

The fact that he was a 3rd option doesn't excuse his pedestrian efficiency (or his lack of playmaking contributions). Au contraire. He should have been a more efficient and prolific player because of Westbrook and Durant. His usage rate has been stable above 19% since he entered the league. He can't expect to get more touches and shots in Boston, quite the contrary: Daniels and Wafer have usage rates much lower, in the 15-16% territory.

I expect him to take away touches and shots from Glen Davis, whose usage is up to 20.6% this season.  For the rest of the season, if used properly, Green should have a higher usage rate than BBD.

Maybe, but that wouldn't still be enough to put his usage significantly above 19%, especially with Shaq/Krstic seeing minutes at the 5. And I don't see Davis becoming a low usage player. You'd probably need to seat him

Anyway, I don't think that a higher usage rate, or a different one, would improve his efficiency. If anything, he needs to be used less, but differently. Used to do things he's good at.

[LooseCannon]

Maybe, but that wouldn't still be enough to put his usage significantly above 19%, especially with Shaq/Krstic seeing minutes at the 5. And I don't see Davis becoming a low usage player. You'd probably need to seat him

That's actually what I think should happen.  Jeff Green should take minutes away from BBD.

[Celtics4ever]

Jeff Green is a better player than Perk right now.   We came out ahead in that trade.  

Perk's defense was in decline the last few games he played.  Opposing Centers scored 18, 9, 4, 28, 14 and 16.  That 28 is by Howard the 18 is by Robin Lopez.  7-5 with Perk for .58% winning percentage .  34-10 without him for close to .77%.  The dude gave his all but he is injured again.  Maybe he rushed back I don't know but he wasn't the same Perk.  SO far, and its only been one game , Krstic looks ok.   Definitely better for offensive flow.

Think Durant doesn't affect his game you should read this excellent post.

think Jeff Green is a stud.  I think he's a stud getting overshadowed by a couple phenoms in OKC.  Green is a SF who has been forced to play PF in OKC.  I was curious how he's produced in games when Durant was out with injuries.  My hunch was that he would have produced some big numbers.  Unfortunately, Durant doesn't miss a ton of games.  In the last 3 years since Durant has been a "star", there has only been 7 games in which Jeff Green got to play without him.    

Jeff Green's stats:


08-09 season:

L 11/12/08 - 25 points, 10 rebounds, (7-18 shooting)
L 2/27/09 - 28 points, 12 rebounds, (9-20 shooting)
W 2/28/09 - 27 points, 10 rebounds, 2 assists (8-20 shooting)
W 3/10/09 - 22 points, 6 rebounds, 2 assists (6-13 shooting)
L 3/11/09 - 19 points, 7 rebounds (5-12 shooting)
 

10-11 season:
W 12/1/10 -  37 points, 5 rebounds, 4 assists (12-21 shooting)
L 12/3/10 - 17 points, 4 rebounds, 7 assists (6-14 shooting)


So in 7 games he's managed to average 25 points, 7.7 rebounds 45% shooting ... Worth noting?  

I think the guy ends up being a fringe all-star in the post-"Big 3" lotto Celtics era.
quote]

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=44866.0#msg929215

Now I don't know if he was is going to be a fringe allstar.   But I trust Danny's judgement and talent evaulation over the likes of you.  I know he won't get touches here as much but he stands to add some scoring punch to our bench at this rate.  I think we will allow us to rest PP and a lot of worst opponents are SF.  Green has the length to affect LeBron's shot and some athletic ability to boot.

Besides I call BS on your whole premise he had an advantage.  He was playing out of position.  I brought some proof too from an OKC paper.

The Thunder doesn't have as much talent as it did before the trade deadline.

That's because it didn't bring in anyone as good as Jeff Green.
 
In one of the biggest surprises of the trading deadline, the Thunder sent the versatile swingman to the Celtics and dealt away a significant piece of its young, talented core. Green is a starter, a contributor, not to mention a big-time ballplayer.

No player that the Thunder acquired Thursday is as good as he is. Not Nazr Mohammed. Not Nate Robinson. Not even Kendrick Perkins.

So, why trade Green?

He'd become the odd man out.

Even though he has been a cornerstone player since the franchise moved to town three years ago, you could see a shift during the past year or so. It wasn't an overnight move but rather a slow, steady change.

First, Russell Westbrook emerged as a point-guard powerhouse. Thunder brass always contended they saw the potential for greatness in him, but I'm not sure anyone ever projected this from Westbrook. He strikes fear into opponents with his ability to shoot, drive, score, pass and defend.

He is a game-changer.

More than that, Westbrook is the perfect complement to Durant. He is the fire to Durant's ice, the grit to his smooth, the Robin to his Batman.

Not so long ago, Green was Durant's sidekick. They were the yin and the yang. They were the one-two punch.

Westbrook's emergence changed Green's place on the team.

Serge Ibaka's cemented it.

Green has been playing out of position for as long as the Thunder has been in Oklahoma City. Occasionally, he'd have a chance to play small forward, but if the Thunder wanted its best players on the floor at once, Green had to play power forward. That wasn't a spot Durant could play. Ditto for Thabo Sefolosha.

Green was forced to play out of position because he could. He was undersized but versatile enough to manage.

Then along came Ibaka.

Last year, we saw glimpses of what he could do. This season, his scoring and rebounding, his defending and shotblocking are becoming more predictable and more dynamic.

Now, the Thunder is ready to take off the training wheels and see what Ibaka can do full-time.

That much is clear with the team's decision to trade Green. If Ibaka wasn't ready to take over that No. 4 spot and give the Thunder a true power forward, the Thunder wouldn't have made the trade sending Green to the Celtics.

This franchise didn't make the deal because it dislikes Green. It did it because he became an expendable piece of the core.

Perhaps the players even recognized the change on a subconscious level. When the team first arrived here, Green was one of the guys who hung with Durant and Westbrook off the court. They would go to dinner. They would play video games. They would chill.

In the past year or so, Green didn't run with those guys as much. James Harden, Eric Maynor and Ibaka did. That bunch even went together to All-Star Weekend.

They went sans Green.

Now, they'll be going without him permanently.

There's a chance, of course, that the Thunder could tender Green an offer during the offseason and bring him back to Oklahoma City. He'll be a restricted free agent, after all, and if the Thunder really wants him, it could make an offer just like any other team.

But where would Green fit in?

That's the problem now, and it will remain the problem four months from now.

The Thunder made moves Thursday that will make it bigger in the post. That will make it more defensive minded. That will make it better equipped for a long playoff run.

That's the theory anyway.

http://newsok.com/jeff-green-became-odd-man-out-with-rise-of-russell-westbrook-serge-ibaka/article/3543706

Bottom line is Perk is gone, deal with it.  Don't hate Jeff Green as he didn't make this happen Ainge did.