Would you have traded Rondo for Deron Williams?

[BballTim]

  Rondo can dominate games without taking a shot, something Deron can't do. If you have some good scorers on your team Rondo will contribute in a lot of other ways. Rajon can be the best player in a game where the big three do the bulk of the scoring. If you don't have good scorers aside from the pg Williams might have more of an effect than Rondo but the team won't be a contender.

Rondo can only "dominate" games because he is on the floor with 3 or 4 HOF players.  If Rondo played for a bad team he would not have made any all-star games.  He's very talented and skilled in certain areas, but as an individual player he does not stack up to CP3, Deron, or D-Rose.

I'll give Rondo some credit, but Ray Ray, Diesel, The Truth, and The Big Ticket are all very accomplished players who got  it with and without Rondo.  So you can argue they don't need Rondo.  But we have yet to see how Rondo fares when his team is not stacked.

  You can at least argue that they didn't need Rondo when they were a few years younger. We haven't seen how Rondo fares when his team isn't stacked, but you seem to have an easy time making proclamations on the subject.

[BballTim]

I find it extremely hard to believe you've never heard a player say he chose a team because it was their best chance of winning especially when we've had several of them in recent years.

  You've claimed that teams have a better chance of winning with Deron, but you haven't really done anything to prove it.

Oh so you're arguing that Rondo is a better player than Williams?  Didn't think anybody thought that.

  Rondo does a lot of things to help a team win that seem to fall outside of your idea of things a "better player" does.

[More Banners]

Even if I would, and I might, I wouldn't do it midseason if we had a chance to win it.  In the offseason, I'd think pretty hard on it, but not at this point.

[Army_of_One_Nation]

Off season, yes. During the season, no.

[soap07]

I'm sure Rondo could score all day if he wanted to, but that usually doesn't lead our team to victories. Celtic wins usually equate to sharing the ball and racking up a lot of assists while locking down the opponents.

  If Rondo scoring doesn't lead to victories, then what's the value in bringing in a scoring point guard?

I love Rondo to death, but the best move for a team, for a franchise is to go with the more complete player.

  Yeah, as long as you consider the pg that's worse at passing, rebounding, defense and probably dictating the pace of the game the "more complete player".

Opponents want Rondo to score so that other Celtics are kept shut down.

If you bring in D-Will, he's going to score against defenses trying to stop him, thus opening things up for every other Celtic.

Just by adding D-Will it will generate even more ball movement from all 5 players....not just from one main cog in Rondo.

Rondo is a pretty complete player, but Deron is more so of the total package.

  Rondo can dominate games without taking a shot, something Deron can't do. If you have some good scorers on your team Rondo will contribute in a lot of other ways. Rajon can be the best player in a game where the big three do the bulk of the scoring. If you don't have good scorers aside from the pg Williams might have more of an effect than Rondo but the team won't be a contender.

Wait, why can't Deron dominate games without taking a shot again? And why would he want to?

 Yeah, as long as you consider the pg that's worse at passing, rebounding, defense and probably dictating the pace of the game the "more complete player".

Again, I keep seeing this - when did Rondo become a better defensive player than Deron?

  Start with this:

Rondo was 1st team all defense last year, 2nd team the year before. Last year he finished 4th in DPOY voting, higher than any other guard in the league. Pretty sure coaches vote on some of those. nba.com does GM surveys at the beginning of the year. Rondo finished 1st in best on the ball defender and best passing lane defender, basically getting twice the votes as anyone else in either category. He also finished 3rd in best perimeter defender. The year before he finished tied for 1st in on the ball defender and 4th in perimeter defender. If you compare them defensively on basketballreference Rondo kills Deron. His career defensive rating is much lower and he's got close to twice the total defensive win shares from playing a little over 2/3 the minutes Deron has.

  When did Rondo become a better defender than Deron? When he entered the league. You might think they're equal defenders, nba coaches and executives seem to take a very different view of the subject.

Uh huh.

By defensive win shares, Jason Kidd is a better defender than Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant, while Kurt Thomas is a better defender than Isiah Thomas.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/dws_career.html

I get that this is a cumulative stat - but it's utterly useless.

That's great that Rondo won first team All-Defense last year. He's a good defender. You know who won it the year before him? Chris Paul. Guess what folks? Chris Paul is not the best defending point guard in the league. In 2007, it was Raja freakin' Bell.

Which leads to the final point - the GM surveys. I mean, really? It's not as clear cut as you make it out to be. You throw out defensive win shares, I'll throw out that their opponents PER is around the same this season.

Finally, if you took a survey of every general manager of the league, who would seriously take Rondo over Deron? Maybe one. Danny. That's it. I'm not talking about who's a better fit for the C's - who is a better player? Universally, the answer would be Deron.


--------

EDIT: On this, I will renege - that Deron is inferior defensively to Rondo. The stats  seem to point to it - Win Shares (which I still don't trust, but the large disparity is telling) and defensive rating.


However, I think the defensive rating metric is flawed as well. I don't believe Deron is a worse defender than Al Jefferson. He plays the most minutes at a stacked position with poor defensive big men behind him. Boozer/Okur/Big Al aren't exactly terrifying defensively - but on this, I will renege. It is a bit surprising that his Drtg has not been very good his whole career.


Additionally, I still maintain that Deron is a superior point guard to Rondo.

[BballTim]

I'm sure Rondo could score all day if he wanted to, but that usually doesn't lead our team to victories. Celtic wins usually equate to sharing the ball and racking up a lot of assists while locking down the opponents.

  If Rondo scoring doesn't lead to victories, then what's the value in bringing in a scoring point guard?

I love Rondo to death, but the best move for a team, for a franchise is to go with the more complete player.

  Yeah, as long as you consider the pg that's worse at passing, rebounding, defense and probably dictating the pace of the game the "more complete player".

Opponents want Rondo to score so that other Celtics are kept shut down.

If you bring in D-Will, he's going to score against defenses trying to stop him, thus opening things up for every other Celtic.

Just by adding D-Will it will generate even more ball movement from all 5 players....not just from one main cog in Rondo.

Rondo is a pretty complete player, but Deron is more so of the total package.

  Rondo can dominate games without taking a shot, something Deron can't do. If you have some good scorers on your team Rondo will contribute in a lot of other ways. Rajon can be the best player in a game where the big three do the bulk of the scoring. If you don't have good scorers aside from the pg Williams might have more of an effect than Rondo but the team won't be a contender.

Wait, why can't Deron dominate games without taking a shot again? And why would he want to?

 Yeah, as long as you consider the pg that's worse at passing, rebounding, defense and probably dictating the pace of the game the "more complete player".

Again, I keep seeing this - when did Rondo become a better defensive player than Deron?

  Start with this:

Rondo was 1st team all defense last year, 2nd team the year before. Last year he finished 4th in DPOY voting, higher than any other guard in the league. Pretty sure coaches vote on some of those. nba.com does GM surveys at the beginning of the year. Rondo finished 1st in best on the ball defender and best passing lane defender, basically getting twice the votes as anyone else in either category. He also finished 3rd in best perimeter defender. The year before he finished tied for 1st in on the ball defender and 4th in perimeter defender. If you compare them defensively on basketballreference Rondo kills Deron. His career defensive rating is much lower and he's got close to twice the total defensive win shares from playing a little over 2/3 the minutes Deron has.

  When did Rondo become a better defender than Deron? When he entered the league. You might think they're equal defenders, nba coaches and executives seem to take a very different view of the subject.

Uh huh.

By defensive win shares, Jason Kidd is a better defender than Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant, while Kurt Thomas is a better defender than Isiah Thomas.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/dws_career.html

I get that this is a cumulative stat - but it's utterly useless.

That's great that Rondo won first team All-Defense last year. He's a good defender. You know who won it the year before him? Chris Paul. Guess what folks? Chris Paul is not the best defending point guard in the league. In 2007, it was Raja freakin' Bell.

Which leads to the final point - the GM surveys. I mean, really? It's not as clear cut as you make it out to be. You throw out defensive win shares, I'll throw out that their opponents PER is around the same this season.

Finally, if you took a survey of every general manager of the league, who would seriously take Rondo over Deron? Maybe one. Danny. That's it. I'm not talking about who's a better fit for the C's - who is a better player? Universally, the answer would be Deron.

  Haha. Where to begin? MJ had better stats per minute than Kidd. Kidd, and this may surprise you, was known as a great defensive point guard. It's not surprising that he'd have better numbers than Kobe. As for Kurt Thomas, defensive bigs generally get more DWS than guards. The main reason those numbers are completely useless is because you don't like what they're saying.

  I also liked "Which leads to the final point - the GM surveys. I mean, really?". That's quite a rebuttal. Again, what do nba GMs and coaches know compared to you?

  And maybe the reason that Raja freakin' Bell wasn't seen as the best defensive pg that year was because he spent most of his time playing freakin' shooting guard next to players like Nash and Felton.

  By the way, you might scoff at all the evidence that I had that Rondo's seen as a better defender than Deron, but at least I could make a decent case. Can you provide any evidence that Williams is also widely seen as a great defensive pg? I mean other than your own opinion?

[mgent]

I find it extremely hard to believe you've never heard a player say he chose a team because it was their best chance of winning especially when we've had several of them in recent years.

  You've claimed that teams have a better chance of winning with Deron, but you haven't really done anything to prove it.

Oh so you're arguing that Rondo is a better player than Williams?  Didn't think anybody thought that.

  Rondo does a lot of things to help a team win that seem to fall outside of your idea of things a "better player" does.

I never said he didn't but how would Rondo help our team more than the best PG in the game?

[soap07]

I'm sure Rondo could score all day if he wanted to, but that usually doesn't lead our team to victories. Celtic wins usually equate to sharing the ball and racking up a lot of assists while locking down the opponents.

  If Rondo scoring doesn't lead to victories, then what's the value in bringing in a scoring point guard?

I love Rondo to death, but the best move for a team, for a franchise is to go with the more complete player.

  Yeah, as long as you consider the pg that's worse at passing, rebounding, defense and probably dictating the pace of the game the "more complete player".

Opponents want Rondo to score so that other Celtics are kept shut down.

If you bring in D-Will, he's going to score against defenses trying to stop him, thus opening things up for every other Celtic.

Just by adding D-Will it will generate even more ball movement from all 5 players....not just from one main cog in Rondo.

Rondo is a pretty complete player, but Deron is more so of the total package.

  Rondo can dominate games without taking a shot, something Deron can't do. If you have some good scorers on your team Rondo will contribute in a lot of other ways. Rajon can be the best player in a game where the big three do the bulk of the scoring. If you don't have good scorers aside from the pg Williams might have more of an effect than Rondo but the team won't be a contender.

Wait, why can't Deron dominate games without taking a shot again? And why would he want to?

 Yeah, as long as you consider the pg that's worse at passing, rebounding, defense and probably dictating the pace of the game the "more complete player".

Again, I keep seeing this - when did Rondo become a better defensive player than Deron?

  Start with this:

Rondo was 1st team all defense last year, 2nd team the year before. Last year he finished 4th in DPOY voting, higher than any other guard in the league. Pretty sure coaches vote on some of those. nba.com does GM surveys at the beginning of the year. Rondo finished 1st in best on the ball defender and best passing lane defender, basically getting twice the votes as anyone else in either category. He also finished 3rd in best perimeter defender. The year before he finished tied for 1st in on the ball defender and 4th in perimeter defender. If you compare them defensively on basketballreference Rondo kills Deron. His career defensive rating is much lower and he's got close to twice the total defensive win shares from playing a little over 2/3 the minutes Deron has.

  When did Rondo become a better defender than Deron? When he entered the league. You might think they're equal defenders, nba coaches and executives seem to take a very different view of the subject.

Uh huh.

By defensive win shares, Jason Kidd is a better defender than Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant, while Kurt Thomas is a better defender than Isiah Thomas.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/dws_career.html

I get that this is a cumulative stat - but it's utterly useless.

That's great that Rondo won first team All-Defense last year. He's a good defender. You know who won it the year before him? Chris Paul. Guess what folks? Chris Paul is not the best defending point guard in the league. In 2007, it was Raja freakin' Bell.

Which leads to the final point - the GM surveys. I mean, really? It's not as clear cut as you make it out to be. You throw out defensive win shares, I'll throw out that their opponents PER is around the same this season.

Finally, if you took a survey of every general manager of the league, who would seriously take Rondo over Deron? Maybe one. Danny. That's it. I'm not talking about who's a better fit for the C's - who is a better player? Universally, the answer would be Deron.

  Haha. Where to begin? MJ had better stats per minute than Kidd. Kidd, and this may surprise you, was known as a great defensive point guard. It's not surprising that he'd have better numbers than Kobe. As for Kurt Thomas, defensive bigs generally get more DWS than guards. The main reason those numbers are completely useless is because you don't like what they're saying.

  I also liked "Which leads to the final point - the GM surveys. I mean, really?". That's quite a rebuttal. Again, what do nba GMs and coaches know compared to you?

  And maybe the reason that Raja freakin' Bell wasn't seen as the best defensive pg that year was because he spent most of his time playing freakin' shooting guard next to players like Nash and Felton.

  By the way, you might scoff at all the evidence that I had that Rondo's seen as a better defender than Deron, but at least I could make a decent case. Can you provide any evidence that Williams is also widely seen as a great defensive pg? I mean other than your own opinion?

Touche Bball Tim, as I said in my edited post, you have me convinced conclusively that Rondo is a better defensive player than Deron.

EDIT: On this, I will renege - that Deron is inferior defensively to Rondo. The stats  seem to point to it - Win Shares (which I still don't trust, but the large disparity is telling) and defensive rating.


However, I think the defensive rating metric is flawed as well. I don't believe Deron is a worse defender than Al Jefferson. He plays the most minutes at a stacked position with poor defensive big men behind him. Boozer/Okur/Big Al aren't exactly terrifying defensively - but on this, I will renege. It is a bit surprising that his Drtg has not been very good his whole career.


Additionally, I still maintain that Deron is a superior point guard to Rondo.

[snively]

Props to BballTim for leading the pro-Rondo defense. 

Deron Williams would make the Celtics offense more dangerous as he's a much better and more versatile scorer than Rondo and an equally skilled passer, but he's nowhere near the all-around menace Rondo is.

With Rondo you get elite PG defense, excellent team defense, and a bunch of extra possessions (steals, rebounds) in addition to superb floor generalship. 

Both very good players, but I have to give Rondo the slight edge just for his overall impact.

[winsomme]

Yes.  It's unknown if Rondo can carry a team not loaded with HOF'ers and my gut feeling is that he cannot.  Deron has proven that he can single-handedly carry a team into the playoffs.

The ONLY reason to think about it would be considering the contracts.  But to win in the NBA, you need to shell out $$ and be over the cap, so it doesn't really matter too much.

he also can single-handedly turn a solid playoff team with a HOF coach into a captain-less, rudder-less wayward ship...

I think this move supports what Sloan was saying...

[Who]

Probably yeah ... I am a bit uncomfortable with it though. I would have loved to have seen them go head-to-head one more time before making a decision like this.

Rajon Rondo has improved so much and taken his game to a new level. I think they could be on a similar tier at this point but unfortunately Utah was awful in their game against Boston this season and we didn't get a real good look at that matchup as a consequence. I'd love to see it one more time before making the decision.

So yeah, probably, I'd do it ... but I am not sure it is the right decision.

[Atzar]

I think Deron Williams is a better player than Rondo, even though Rondo is probably a better fit for this team. 

That aside, I wouldn't do this deal in the middle of a season in which we're contenders.  Williams would have to get settled in, develop chemistry with the team, learn the plays, etc. all in about two months before the real basketball starts.  That's an incredibly difficult task.  It might be a different matter during the off-season, but as a deadline deal, no.

[rtifishul]

I would not trade Rondo for Williams because Rondo is a player of the old school. I haven't seen a player so "on the ball" in quite some time. "He'll do whatever takes to win" is an annoying cliche, but in this rare instance it is applicable. He is the real deal.

[PosImpos]

Not this year, but for the future I would, yes.

Rondo makes more sense for our team now, but he's not the type of player who can carry a team of weaker players.  Deron is.  We're going to need that sort of superstar in a couple years when the Big 3 are gone.

[BballTim]

I find it extremely hard to believe you've never heard a player say he chose a team because it was their best chance of winning especially when we've had several of them in recent years.

  You've claimed that teams have a better chance of winning with Deron, but you haven't really done anything to prove it.

Oh so you're arguing that Rondo is a better player than Williams?  Didn't think anybody thought that.

  Rondo does a lot of things to help a team win that seem to fall outside of your idea of things a "better player" does.

I never said he didn't but how would Rondo help our team more than the best PG in the game?

  First of all it's your opinion that he's the bet pg. Secondly that designation is obviously based on individual production. Look at Battier, for instance. A lot of players that would be considered better than him do less to help their teams win than he does.