Contract year for Baby makes for a tough decision for the Celtics.

[Roy H.]

By the way, BBD was fantastic last night.  When he subbed in for Perk in the second half, he played very good defense on Brook Lopez, which helped key our turnaround.  Under normal circumstances Perk is the better player, but BBD outplayed him last night.

[ssspence]

No no, I think your post is right in line with the kind of conduct we expect around here.

Rebounding is not Glen Davis's only weakness as a player. He's got others. When he relies too heavily on his jumpshot for instance, he's a net negative for our team. He relies too much on his jumpshot when we ask him to assume too much of a burden offensively. We ask him to assume to much of a burden offensively when he's the starter at the 4, and Rondo is out of the game.

Defensively, Glen Davis will attempt to guard any player without fear. In application though, he will get abused by starting caliber players on a regular basis if a team can game-plan around him. Avery Johnson didn't tell Brook Lopez how to deal best with Baby, because between Shaq, KP, Jermaine O'Neal, and Semih..Glen Davis shouldn't face Brook Lopez.

But, if a team games plans around that matchup, Glen Davis gets exposed sometimes. Teams game plan around him when he'll play significant predictable minutes. He plays steady significant predictable minutes when he's a starter...Glen Davis is not a good option as a starter.

One of Glen Davis's greatest assets is that he brings hard energy, a solid jumper, and tough defense in the place of the first unit with one of them rests. If he plays too much though, he can't sustain that energy. Without that energy, he's less effective. He loses that energy when he plays too many minutes..he plays too many minutes when he starts..he's not a good fit as a starter.

Glen "Big Baby" Davis is big enough for any moment...in the role of 6th man.

This, from after the Rockets game:

As for Davis, Rivers believes Davis' problems is quite simple: He's playing too many minutes.

On Monday, Davis played just more than any other Celtics player (including Rajon Rondo) with just under 38 minutes of action.

"He's getting too many minutes, honestly," said Rivers, who was quick to blame himself. "Thirty-eight minutes is too many for Baby. That's too many minutes and that's on me. Baby shouldn't play more than in the thirty-range, because I think the fatigue is bothering him."

EDIT: It should also bear mentioning that at this stage in his career, Davis is a reluctant leader, and he is more comfortable when there are lower expectations for him.

Davis acknowledged Thursday after the team’s practice that the shift in roles affected him mentally.

“It’s all mental,” he said. “I was kind too hard on myself when I was starting. I wanted to prove to Doc [Rivers] and prove to my teammates … The difference between that and the playoffs is I just went and played. That’s what I do when I come off the bench, I just go out and play. I put a lot of pressure on myself.  I got out of myself and tried to be something [else]. That’s now how it works. You have to be yourself. I had a couple of good games, but as far as all-around games, the way I know I can play, I didn’t bring it. Now being on the bench you get back to the same mentality.”

As a wise man once said: "It doesn´t matter who starts the game, what matter is who ends the game" (more or less). And Baby does matter. The success of our team this season is also because of Baby´s improved play. His contribution is not as big as that of the starting five, but it does play a role. This is something that gets swept under the rug far too often for my taste (as a Baby fan), while we´re always quick to point out his flaws.

I think the whole "BBD as a starter" discussion suffers from different definitions of the term "starter". Bill Wennington was a starter. Eric Montross was a starter. I think what most people mean when they say starter is actually "key player". Big Baby will never be a key player on a championship team, anything else is just delusional. But he can definitely be a starter, given the right circumstances. I´m pretty sure a lot of teams would love to have a 5th option with Baby´s talent.

In the hypothetical scenario that we trade KG for Dwight Howard tomorrow, I don´t see a problem with Baby at the 4, if we only look at his skill-set. Energy is a different story. Baby was abused by Lopez because he´s simply a very skilled post player and a bad matchup for Davis.
However, to use his dip in performance when he filled in for KG as evidence to say he can´t be a starter is not logical, imo. Baby played great early this season and was averaging over 30 minutes a game. Those are "starter" minutes.

I think Baby´s performance during that KG-less stretch was to be expected. Many former "stars" had problems adjusting to a bench role, because you need a different mentality. He never was in that position in the NBA before. I don´t think it´s easy to find your game mid-season on a star-studded team like the Celtics when you have to fill KG´s shoes.

That Davis quote shows me one thing: he´s self-critical, reflecting, learning (ok, that´s three things).
When he first showed his jump-shot two seasons ago, he was pretty bad at it. However, over time, he became a lot better, to the point that it is now a legit option in his arsenal. Who knows, maybe he will play a lot better the next time he has to take over for KG (heaven forbid)?!

To simply say he can never be a "starter" in this league means to ignore what Baby does best: to surprise us all.

Don't you think you're getting a little carried away here? What Baby does best is to surprise us all? I was certainly surprised when Baby punched out his best friend before opening night last year.

Last I checked what he does best is come off the bench, defend, hit 2-3 post buckets a game, then step out and hit 2-3 jumpers a game.

The subject is Baby's contract. Danny AInge will never pay Baby starter dollars. If he's willing to stay as a role player at a role players price -- so they can keep him for what he's worth, or use him as a tradable commodity -- the Cs sign him. If he wont, they'll pass. It's really pretty simple.

[Megatron]

By the way, BBD was fantastic last night.  When he subbed in for Perk in the second half, he played very good defense on Brook Lopez, which helped key our turnaround.  Under normal circumstances Perk is the better player, but BBD outplayed him last night.

I think BBD is better offensively then Perk, but Perk obviously has a height/defense advantage.

They arent by any stretch complete players, they each have huge flaws that probably will never be fixed due to them just being physical limitations.

[Meadowlark_Scal]

You'd think he would play like he did back when Sheldon, and Leon were threatening him for playing time, that is when he would go all out.  He is now only a very "sometime" player. Out of shape, lack of rebounds, no jump, decent shot..but too "sometimes"  He lacks focus and is too confident in his game. Compare him too....who....Ray, KG..PP...all in dynamic shape, with a lot of heart. Don't go lowering the bar for him either.....He is an NBA player, on a GREAT TEAM.....He hasn't EVER tried to get in better shape, he is ONLY, what 28..if you can't get in shape at 28...you'll never do it, especially when you are getting PAID to do it, with the best help ever...!

[Casperian]

Don't you think you're getting a little carried away here? What Baby does best is to surprise us all? I was certainly surprised when Baby punched out his best friend before opening night last year.

Last I checked what he does best is come off the bench, defend, hit 2-3 post buckets a game, then step out and hit 2-3 jumpers a game.

The subject is Baby's contract. Danny AInge will never pay Baby starter dollars. If he's willing to stay as a role player at a role players price -- so they can keep him for what he's worth, or use him as a tradable commodity -- the Cs sign him. If he wont, they'll pass. It's really pretty simple.

I knew someone would pick on that line, I will include some smileys like       the next time I make such a statement. It took me an hour to write that post, I almsot instantly fell asleep afterward, I just wanted to get done with it. Cut me some slack. I don´t think anyone expected him to become this good, that his jumpshot could develop like it did. That is quite surprising, imo.

While we´re at it, Baby does this whole "come off the bench, hit three buckets" thingy well enough to be considered for 6th man of the year.

And what do you mean with starter dollars? As I said, starter could mean a lot of things. If it´s somewhere around 8 millions, nobody else will pay him that much, either, which makes your point moot.

[Bahku]

Just something quick to add in reference to Glen's rebounding ... he's usually playing one of two positions: Power Forward or Center, and I personally wouldn't expect him to rebound as well as most of the other players at that position, as they are usually four to six inches taller than he is. He's the height of a Small Forward and being asked to defend and rebound with a significant height disadvantage to those he's playing with and against. Stats are great to use as a guide for certain things, but are also pretty fluid when assessing a player's worth.

[BballTim]

Just something quick to add in reference to Glen's rebounding ... he's usually playing one of two positions: Power Forward or Center, and I personally wouldn't expect him to rebound as well as most of the other players at that position, as they are usually four to six inches taller than he is. He's the height of a Small Forward and being asked to defend and rebound with a significant height disadvantage to those he's playing with and against. Stats are great to use as a guide for certain things, but are also pretty fluid when assessing a player's worth.

  You're kind of letting him off the hook for being a tweener. He doesn't have the speed or the game to play sf so he has to play pf or c, but shouldn't be expected to give you the production that you'd hope for from those spots because of his height.

[ssspence]

Don't you think you're getting a little carried away here? What Baby does best is to surprise us all? I was certainly surprised when Baby punched out his best friend before opening night last year.

Last I checked what he does best is come off the bench, defend, hit 2-3 post buckets a game, then step out and hit 2-3 jumpers a game.

The subject is Baby's contract. Danny AInge will never pay Baby starter dollars. If he's willing to stay as a role player at a role players price -- so they can keep him for what he's worth, or use him as a tradable commodity -- the Cs sign him. If he wont, they'll pass. It's really pretty simple.

I knew someone would pick on that line, I will include some smileys like       the next time I make such a statement. It took me an hour to write that post, I almsot instantly fell asleep afterward, I just wanted to get done with it. Cut me some slack. I don´t think anyone expected him to become this good, that his jumpshot could develop like it did. That is quite surprising, imo.

While we´re at it, Baby does this whole "come off the bench, hit three buckets" thingy well enough to be considered for 6th man of the year.

And what do you mean with starter dollars? As I said, starter could mean a lot of things. If it´s somewhere around 8 millions, nobody else will pay him that much, either, which makes your point moot.

We've all been there! TP.

Ever since Blount, Ainge has simply refused to overpay for role players, as evidenced by Posey, TA, and others. He's also been tough and smart in negotiations for Perk and Rondo.

My point is: If Baby wants to pull a TA,  Ainge is not going to over pay to keep him. I frankly think Ainge would rather keep Perk and NOT pay / overpay for Davis in an effort to keep his options open for Dwight Howard (and perhaps Deron Williams) to become a reality in green on 2012.


Meanwhile, the reality is this is all just pontification until the CBA goes down -- who really knows what FAs are going to face this summer?

[mmbaby]

Thanks Casperian...TP

Agree with everything you said and Bahku, that is a great observation about the rebounding problem, though I don't see it as a problem really, at least not to the extent some do, and when you look at the reasons, which Bahku pointed out, it makes sense.

I try to look at a player as a whole package and very much like what I see in BBD. I'm glad he's a Celtic.

[Chris]

Just something quick to add in reference to Glen's rebounding ... he's usually playing one of two positions: Power Forward or Center, and I personally wouldn't expect him to rebound as well as most of the other players at that position, as they are usually four to six inches taller than he is. He's the height of a Small Forward and being asked to defend and rebound with a significant height disadvantage to those he's playing with and against. Stats are great to use as a guide for certain things, but are also pretty fluid when assessing a player's worth.

This is absolutely correct.  But I am not sure what your overall point is.  The bottom line is that he is not a good rebounder.  Whether it is because of his lack of length, or some other reason is not really relevant when it comes to discussing contracts.  He is always going to be short for his position, so the only thing that matters is that he is most likely always going to not be a great rebounder, and that needs to be taken into account during negotiations.  

[mmbaby]

I don't know if this matters but someone here said Baby is 28. I'll just correct that and say that he turned 24 or 25 on Jan. 1st.

Chris, you say Baby is a bad rebounder but I remember him being pretty good with the rebounding at various points in his career. I don't know why it's different now, but from watching the games, I'd say they are just not available to him in his constantly varying positions.

Though he definately has been holding onto the guy he's guarding in order that KG or one of the Celtics can get the rebound.

Maybe we could start a new stat entitled 'Enabling Rebounds' and it would look pretty good, I think.

[thirstyboots18]

Just something quick to add in reference to Glen's rebounding ... he's usually playing one of two positions: Power Forward or Center, and I personally wouldn't expect him to rebound as well as most of the other players at that position, as they are usually four to six inches taller than he is. He's the height of a Small Forward and being asked to defend and rebound with a significant height disadvantage to those he's playing with and against. Stats are great to use as a guide for certain things, but are also pretty fluid when assessing a player's worth.

I just don't understand your argument, Bahku.  Do you think we should lower our expectations because Davis is covering two positions, or do you think we should get someone of greater height to cover those positions?  Sorry for being obtuse....

[Chris]

Chris, you say Baby is a bad rebounder but I remember him being pretty good with the rebounding at various points in his career. I don't know why it's different now, but from watching the games, I'd say they are just not available to him in his constantly varying positions.

Well, the numbers really do bear it out.  He is a pretty consistently mediocre rebounder.  Nothing wrong with that, its just part of his game.  Not sure what you mean by constantly varying positions though.  He really always plays the same position for the C's.  They will switch who he is covering based on matchups, but that is done with every player in the league. 

[Fan from VT]

I don't know if this matters but someone here said Baby is 28. I'll just correct that and say that he turned 24 or 25 on Jan. 1st.

Chris, you say Baby is a bad rebounder but I remember him being pretty good with the rebounding at various points in his career. I don't know why it's different now, but from watching the games, I'd say they are just not available to him in his constantly varying positions.

Though he definately has been holding onto the guy he's guarding in order that KG or one of the Celtics can get the rebound.

Maybe we could start a new stat entitled 'Enabling Rebounds' and it would look pretty good, I think.

I see this argument a lot, and honestly, I don't buy it. I think this is one of those "see it because you are looking for it" kind of things. Lots of bigs box out. all the bigs on the C's box out. But the C's team rebounding numbers, nor the rebounding numbers of the bigs themselves, suddenly sky rocket because davis has boxed out the opposing bigs. KG's always rebounded this way, as have perk and shaq, regardless of who else plays with them up front. I think you could pick ANY poor rebounding big and focus on when he boxes out but teammates get the rebound and conclude that he's an invaluable boxer outer if you really wanted to.

For example, this season the C's as a team rebound better when davis is off the court. not by a lot, but it's true.



As another aside, I don't think the "pf/c" split really exists that much in today's nba. I buy more into the "point, 2 wings, 2 bigs." Regardless, I don't see how switching between the two positions of PF and Center would really affect rebounding; both are "big" positions around the basket. If it was a 3/4 tweener, I'd see that.

[indeedproceed]

No no, I think your post is right in line with the kind of conduct we expect around here.

Rebounding is not Glen Davis's only weakness as a player. He's got others. When he relies too heavily on his jumpshot for instance, he's a net negative for our team. He relies too much on his jumpshot when we ask him to assume too much of a burden offensively. We ask him to assume to much of a burden offensively when he's the starter at the 4, and Rondo is out of the game.

Defensively, Glen Davis will attempt to guard any player without fear. In application though, he will get abused by starting caliber players on a regular basis if a team can game-plan around him. Avery Johnson didn't tell Brook Lopez how to deal best with Baby, because between Shaq, KP, Jermaine O'Neal, and Semih..Glen Davis shouldn't face Brook Lopez.

But, if a team games plans around that matchup, Glen Davis gets exposed sometimes. Teams game plan around him when he'll play significant predictable minutes. He plays steady significant predictable minutes when he's a starter...Glen Davis is not a good option as a starter.

One of Glen Davis's greatest assets is that he brings hard energy, a solid jumper, and tough defense in the place of the first unit with one of them rests. If he plays too much though, he can't sustain that energy. Without that energy, he's less effective. He loses that energy when he plays too many minutes..he plays too many minutes when he starts..he's not a good fit as a starter.

Glen "Big Baby" Davis is big enough for any moment...in the role of 6th man.

This, from after the Rockets game:

As for Davis, Rivers believes Davis' problems is quite simple: He's playing too many minutes.

On Monday, Davis played just more than any other Celtics player (including Rajon Rondo) with just under 38 minutes of action.

"He's getting too many minutes, honestly," said Rivers, who was quick to blame himself. "Thirty-eight minutes is too many for Baby. That's too many minutes and that's on me. Baby shouldn't play more than in the thirty-range, because I think the fatigue is bothering him."

EDIT: It should also bear mentioning that at this stage in his career, Davis is a reluctant leader, and he is more comfortable when there are lower expectations for him.

Davis acknowledged Thursday after the team’s practice that the shift in roles affected him mentally.

“It’s all mental,” he said. “I was kind too hard on myself when I was starting. I wanted to prove to Doc [Rivers] and prove to my teammates … The difference between that and the playoffs is I just went and played. That’s what I do when I come off the bench, I just go out and play. I put a lot of pressure on myself.  I got out of myself and tried to be something [else]. That’s now how it works. You have to be yourself. I had a couple of good games, but as far as all-around games, the way I know I can play, I didn’t bring it. Now being on the bench you get back to the same mentality.”

As a wise man once said: "It doesn´t matter who starts the game, what matter is who ends the game" (more or less). And Baby does matter. The success of our team this season is also because of Baby´s improved play. His contribution is not as big as that of the starting five, but it does play a role. This is something that gets swept under the rug far too often for my taste (as a Baby fan), while we´re always quick to point out his flaws.

Well, if read above, you see I say lots of good things about Baby. I also say some of his flaws. I'm not denying his importance, or his abilities, but I do think it is important to keep in mind his limitations..so that we don't expect too much of him, or put him in places where he cannot succeed.

I think the whole "BBD as a starter" discussion suffers from different definitions of the term "starter". Bill Wennington was a starter. Eric Montross was a starter. I think what most people mean when they say starter is actually "key player". Big Baby will never be a key player on a championship team, anything else is just delusional. But he can definitely be a starter, given the right circumstances. I´m pretty sure a lot of teams would love to have a 5th option with Baby´s talent.

Maybe I should've said 'successful starter'. Glen Davis will never be a top 2 guy on a good team. How's that?

In the hypothetical scenario that we trade KG for Dwight Howard tomorrow, I don´t see a problem with Baby at the 4, if we only look at his skill-set. Energy is a different story. Baby was abused by Lopez because he´s simply a very skilled post player and a bad matchup for Davis.

Actually I didn't have a problem with Baby's defense on Lopez when he started playing him correctly. Baby was overly physical, and denied Lopez good starting position, using his leverage as a wedge to force Lopez out of his favorite spots to initiate his post game. Glen Davis has done similar things with Tim Duncan, Nene, Bynum, even Howard. The real problem is that Davis cannot do much of anything once they get within 5 feet or so from the hoop.

However, to use his dip in performance when he filled in for KG as evidence to say he can´t be a starter is not logical, imo. Baby played great early this season and was averaging over 30 minutes a game. Those are "starter" minutes.

Glen Davis as a starter means that he must perform, because there isn't another option behind him that is viable. He must shoulder the burden. I think coming off the bench, and being allowed to 'just play' as he puts it is much better for Glen Davis..because he can let his game come to him.

I think Baby´s performance during that KG-less stretch was to be expected. Many former "stars" had problems adjusting to a bench role, because you need a different mentality. He never was in that position in the NBA before. I don´t think it´s easy to find your game mid-season on a star-studded team like the Celtics when you have to fill KG´s shoes.

Sure, I can agree with some of that. I mean, his tiny T-Rex arms and paper-thin vertical also had something to do with it, but yeah..mentally adjusting to the role of starter is hard. Lots of stress and expectations you put on yourself, and that can get to someone. That does however seem to contradict notions that "no moment is too big for Glen Davis".

That Davis quote shows me one thing: he´s self-critical, reflecting, learning (ok, that´s three things).
When he first showed his jump-shot two seasons ago, he was pretty bad at it. However, over time, he became a lot better, to the point that it is now a legit option in his arsenal. Who knows, maybe he will play a lot better the next time he has to take over for KG (heaven forbid)?!

Well, I'd love it if Glen Davis could become a real force at the 4 and a legitimate starter for a championship caliber team. The thing is, I don't think his mental attitude has much to do with holding him back..I think its mostly his short arms, short (comparatively) height, and short vertical.

To simply say he can never be a "starter" in this league means to ignore what Baby does best: to surprise us all.

Alright. I'm not even gonna disagree with that one or criticize it. You felt you were on a roll. Everyone gets a break sometimes.