Worst Game I ever saw Baby Play

[indeedproceed]

Baby played terrible, you can´t argue with that, and the mods are certainly not "hating" on Baby. But I´m convinced that a lot of the criticism of the last days has to do with personal dislike. To use old stories about BBD to underline his "immaturity" is a pretty good sign for that, in my opinion.

- Does anyone remember how immature Pierce was just a few years ago? There was a game in Doc´s first year where he even benched Paul because he didn´t play the way he should. Nobody calls Pierce immature when he calls an iso at the end of a quarter to play some hero ball, we all begrudgingly accept it.
- There are a lot of stories about Rondo´s stubborness, but when he makes the same mistake over and over again in a game, nobody´s calling him out.
- Delonte West and Von Wafer go at it in training and everybody and their mother is making fun of the "eye-brow raisers".
- Bring back Toine and Gerald Green threads. Do I have to explain that one?

So, Baby didn´t have a lot of rebounds in the last games. When I hear this argument, I really have to wonder if these people are even watching the games? Is it so hard to understand that everybody on this team has a role to play and everyone´s just a gear in the big machine? How is Shaq rebounding this year? You know, the HOFer whose job is to protect the basket and grab the boards, the same Shaq half of this board wants to start even when Perk comes back and who is about 5 inches taller than BBD?

This wouldn´t be so ridiculous if Baby had a history of not stepping up, or if he had played bad for the whole season, but he was playing terrific ball just two weeks ago, and even during this little slump, had a great game against the Spurs and the Raptors. What does being a starter have to do with his recent play? He was playing 30+ minutes and closing out games even when both O´Neals were healthy at the start of the season.

As I said in the first sentence, he played bad. He´s going away from what made him strong: keeping it simple, doing the necessary little things to help the team win. However, to assume this would have anything to do with some kind of imminent immaturity on Davis´ part is just moronic. In fact, it´s so stupid, I can´t even assume these people simply lack in deductive sills. He played great ball, had nice statlines and was praised around the league as a candidate for 6th man of the year, why would he go away from that just to have a few more shots? You´d have to be a (pretty bad) armchair GM to think in these categories. Does anyone really think Davis could get away with that on a team with KG, Pierce, Ray and Shaq?

Maybe he´s feeling the pressure, maybe someone told him that real shooters are not afraid to shoot it even more after they miss a shot, or maybe everyone is simply guarded and they leave Baby open, and our four all-stars fail to create some offense that doesn´t end up in the hands of our fifth option.
Whatever it is, as far as I´m concerned, Davis has earned the right to play through a slump, just like everyone else on this team.

I think a lot of what you said was solid, aside from the 'how is Shaq rebounding this year' part.

Shaq's rebound rate is good for 28th best among centers in the league, but that's coupled with a horrible offensive rebound rate (8.9%, same as Al Horford), which is mostly by design.

His defensive rebound rate is the same Nene's (21%, 24th among centers) and better than guys like Andrew Bynum or David Lee.

Glen Davis on the other hand has the 54th best rebound rate among power forwards, and his offensive rebound rate has dropped dramatically. The offensive rebound rate dropping is a good thing, because it means he's getting his shot blocked less (and so he has to recover it less).

But Glen Davis is a poor rebounder. That is part of what makes him a flawed starter, and part of the reason why when his shooting is off, his value on the court decreases dramatically.

If people want to say Glen Davis is one of the best bigs off the bench in the league, I'll cosign that in a heartbeat. But if people want to say Glen Davis is a viable solution at starter just going through a rough patch, that's very wrong. Some nights, his shot will fall, and his confidence will be up, and he'll play well. Some nights he won't and he'll be a net negative. That's not a viable solution.

He can start in a pinch, but you're going to get a good number of horrible games, with an okay number of decent games, and one or two awesome games. That's got little to nothing to do with maturity, its about the fact that he has t-rex arms and is actually only 6'7 inches tall with little vertical explosion. 

[LilRip]

bahku is sadly mistaken if he thinks that BBD is our second best rebounder. even without checking the stats (that guys like Clover and Roy did), i can see by watching that he's not been rebounding well.

mmbaby, understand that we're not saying that BBD sucks. i think the common notion around here, or at least in this thread, is that BBD has not been a very good starter and has made some pretty bad decisions. Lots of players make bad decisions, but BBD's bad decisions stick out a lot more, at least for me, because well... they're really bad! poor shot selection is annoying, especially when "scoring" isn't even BBD's main calling card, and BBD has been taking a lot of shots.

Again, i haven't had the time to check the stats but thankfully Roy has, and with a line of 40.7% (!) on 14.3 (!!) attempts while only averaging 3.8 (!!!) rebounds in 35.5 minutes as a big man starter... well, that's pretty bad if you ask me. Celtics have played 36 games so far, and so a 10-game trend is pretty sizeable.

i'm looking forward to him going back to the bench.

I didn't check the stats?!? His average for rebounding total is 5.40, which is second on the team, and his total number is 194, which is also second. You may disagree about Big Baby's worth, but please do not insinuate that I haven't checked the stats like "Clover and Roy did" ... I absolutely did, and I don't throw them out in conversation or discourse without checking them, (which is something you might want to do before assuming I didn't).

Clover and Roy are talking about "Per Minute" stats, which unfortunately, is a very poor stat to go on. If a player played a minute or two for the whole season and got a couple of rebounds during that time, he'd have the highest rebounding/minute stat in the NBA! But would that make him the best? Of course not!

Sorry, but his "RB Per Minute" stats mean very little when compared to guys who are playing many less minutes than he is. Listen, I'm not saying I like him as a starter, I'm saying he's done well, (overall, not the recent three or four games), in a role that is hard to fill, and he's getting way too much blame for the C's losses.

I would never want Glen starting in place of KG, (for obvious reasons), unless it's necessary due to injury, (like now), and I think he's at his best when coming off the bench. He's given us a huge contribution in that role, and would easily get my "Sixth Man" vote so far this year.  

i never said you didn't check stats nor did i insinuate that. i just said you were mistaken. it's because per-minute stats are often more relevant than total stats; and you were basing your case on BBD being the 2nd best rebounder in the team on absolute stats.  if someone else had checked the stats for me, why would i go and check his stats are correct if they're often a credible source (like Roy and now IP)? i mean, i could, but i'm trusting that no one here on this board is lying and overinflating stats. Hearing both sides of the argument, i'm siding with Roy and Clover (and IP) because the stats they used (per-minute) or rebounding rate are more relevant than total number of rebounds hauled in.

your argument pointing out the flaw in the per minute stat is based on an extreme, with the whole "if a player played a couple of minutes, he'd lead the league". That would be me saying "if a player played 48 mpg and pulled in 6 rebounds a night and has played all 36 celtics games, and a player who played 20 minutes per game and pulled in 6 rebounds a night and played only 26 games because he missed some due to injury, then by your logic, player A is a better rebounder than player B because he has pulled in more rebounds overall".

Again, as a starter, as Roy had pointed out, BBD is averaging 3.8 rpg in 35.5 mpg as a starter. As IP pointed out, he has a rebounding rate of 11%. It's not even worth calling it "not good enough". It simply is "not good". And we're not even considering the percentages nor the FGA's yet.

And that all ties back to the point i wanted to make in the first place. BBD isn't a great starter and I look forward to BBD relegated back to the bench. And if he's starting, which he is right now because of KG's injury, i don't see how any of us calling him out on his poor performance are making any less of a valid point when we talk about the flaws of his game. add to that, i don't see how we're wrong either when we disprove a statement like "he's the 2nd best rebounding player we have".

In the bigger picture, which goes beyond this thread, there have been plenty threads put up about "how much is BBD worth" and again, there are those backers that say that we need to keep BBD at all costs and they're willing to shell out $9m/yr. i would think that 9mil in the first year is a lot of money to be tied up in a good role player.

and another thing, though i know i must sound like i'm rambling now, all Celtics players catch plenty of heat from us fans. This includes Rondo's poor shooting, KG not demanding the ball enough or not being in the post, Shaq being slow and injured, JO being a bad signing and being injured, Ray Allen going cold, Bradley being a bust, Sheed not being motivated, Perk being TO-prone and mechanical, Nate being small and inconsistent, Wafer sucking, Delonte not passing enough, Semih being a bust, etc. etc.

you'd think i'd be mad at Nate but he's playing D and he's taking smart shots for the most part. Sure, a few bad 3's have been jacked up in the season, but that was part of his game in NY and he's made teams pay before. Rondo has rubbed some of us the wrong way with his stubbornness but if he's putting up crazy efficient numbers more often than not, we'll live with the stubbornness. Pierce has bailed out the team countless of times with that iso so we'll live with it.  I know if in the last possession of a quarter, i'd much rather have Pierce iso-ing than Marquis Daniels because Pierce has built a credible reputation on being a primetime scorer while Quis has not.

But now, imagine if Semih puts up 14 FGA while shooting only 40% from the floor when Shaq got injured and he was starting. Add to that, he's rebounding poorly. See how p---ed we'll be. Even JO taking 14 jumpers per game is too much! but they don't do that. that's why they don't get called out on it. BBD has and he's being called out on it. Add to that the fact that he's an impending FA and he talks a lot and historically, he wanted more money, and you have a lot of people interested in what the team should do with him.

[LooseCannon]

Baby played terrible, you can´t argue with that, and the mods are certainly not "hating" on Baby. But I´m convinced that a lot of the criticism of the last days has to do with personal dislike. To use old stories about BBD to underline his "immaturity" is a pretty good sign for that, in my opinion.

I think that a lot of criticism of BBD has more to do with personal dislike of people who make stupid arguments about Glen Davis being a good option for future starting power forward and less to do with personal dislike of Big Baby himself.

[GreenFaith1819]

Wow - man had one bad game....couldn't hit the broad side of a barn....and this thread is up to 5 pages, lol?

Amazing.

Didn't Glen Davis just go for 23 pts and 8 rebs VS a Still VERY GOOD Tim Duncan? His BAD games (like this one) have been few and far between this year.

He has been mentioned in 6th man of the year voting.

He can have a few more 4-17 games, as far as I'm concerned. If it wasn't for his production this year and improved play, we'd have more games lost this year.

[Bahku]

bahku is sadly mistaken if he thinks that BBD is our second best rebounder. even without checking the stats (that guys like Clover and Roy did), i can see by watching that he's not been rebounding well.

mmbaby, understand that we're not saying that BBD sucks. i think the common notion around here, or at least in this thread, is that BBD has not been a very good starter and has made some pretty bad decisions. Lots of players make bad decisions, but BBD's bad decisions stick out a lot more, at least for me, because well... they're really bad! poor shot selection is annoying, especially when "scoring" isn't even BBD's main calling card, and BBD has been taking a lot of shots.

Again, i haven't had the time to check the stats but thankfully Roy has, and with a line of 40.7% (!) on 14.3 (!!) attempts while only averaging 3.8 (!!!) rebounds in 35.5 minutes as a big man starter... well, that's pretty bad if you ask me. Celtics have played 36 games so far, and so a 10-game trend is pretty sizeable.

i'm looking forward to him going back to the bench.

I didn't check the stats?!? His average for rebounding total is 5.40, which is second on the team, and his total number is 194, which is also second. You may disagree about Big Baby's worth, but please do not insinuate that I haven't checked the stats like "Clover and Roy did" ... I absolutely did, and I don't throw them out in conversation or discourse without checking them, (which is something you might want to do before assuming I didn't).

Clover and Roy are talking about "Per Minute" stats, which unfortunately, is a very poor stat to go on. If a player played a minute or two for the whole season and got a couple of rebounds during that time, he'd have the highest rebounding/minute stat in the NBA! But would that make him the best? Of course not!

Sorry, but his "RB Per Minute" stats mean very little when compared to guys who are playing many less minutes than he is. Listen, I'm not saying I like him as a starter, I'm saying he's done well, (overall, not the recent three or four games), in a role that is hard to fill, and he's getting way too much blame for the C's losses.

I would never want Glen starting in place of KG, (for obvious reasons), unless it's necessary due to injury, (like now), and I think he's at his best when coming off the bench. He's given us a huge contribution in that role, and would easily get my "Sixth Man" vote so far this year.   

i never said you didn't check stats nor did i insinuate that. i just said you were mistaken. it's because per-minute stats are often more relevant than total stats; and you were basing your case on BBD being the 2nd best rebounder in the team on absolute stats.  if someone else had checked the stats for me, why would i go and check his stats are correct if they're often a credible source (like Roy and now IP)? i mean, i could, but i'm trusting that no one here on this board is lying and overinflating stats. Hearing both sides of the argument, i'm siding with Roy and Clover (and IP) because the stats they used (per-minute) or rebounding rate are more relevant than total number of rebounds hauled in.

your argument pointing out the flaw in the per minute stat is based on an extreme, with the whole "if a player played a couple of minutes, he'd lead the league". That would be me saying "if a player played 48 mpg and pulled in 6 rebounds a night and has played all 36 celtics games, and a player who played 20 minutes per game and pulled in 6 rebounds a night and played only 26 games because he missed some due to injury, then by your logic, player A is a better rebounder than player B because he has pulled in more rebounds overall".

Again, as a starter, as Roy had pointed out, BBD is averaging 3.8 rpg in 35.5 mpg as a starter. As IP pointed out, he has a rebounding rate of 11%. It's not even worth calling it "not good enough". It simply is "not good". And we're not even considering the percentages nor the FGA's yet.

And that all ties back to the point i wanted to make in the first place. BBD isn't a great starter and I look forward to BBD relegated back to the bench. And if he's starting, which he is right now because of KG's injury, i don't see how any of us calling him out on his poor performance are making any less of a valid point when we talk about the flaws of his game. add to that, i don't see how we're wrong either when we disprove a statement like "he's the 2nd best rebounding player we have".

In the bigger picture, which goes beyond this thread, there have been plenty threads put up about "how much is BBD worth" and again, there are those backers that say that we need to keep BBD at all costs and they're willing to shell out $9m/yr. i would think that 9mil in the first year is a lot of money to be tied up in a good role player.

and another thing, though i know i must sound like i'm rambling now, all Celtics players catch plenty of heat from us fans. This includes Rondo's poor shooting, KG not demanding the ball enough or not being in the post, Shaq being slow and injured, JO being a bad signing and being injured, Ray Allen going cold, Bradley being a bust, Sheed not being motivated, Perk being TO-prone and mechanical, Nate being small and inconsistent, Wafer sucking, Delonte not passing enough, Semih being a bust, etc. etc.

you'd think i'd be mad at Nate but he's playing D and he's taking smart shots for the most part. Sure, a few bad 3's have been jacked up in the season, but that was part of his game in NY and he's made teams pay before. Rondo has rubbed some of us the wrong way with his stubbornness but if he's putting up crazy efficient numbers more often than not, we'll live with the stubbornness. Pierce has bailed out the team countless of times with that iso so we'll live with it.  I know if in the last possession of a quarter, i'd much rather have Pierce iso-ing than Marquis Daniels because Pierce has built a credible reputation on being a primetime scorer while Quis has not.

But now, imagine if Semih puts up 14 FGA while shooting only 40% from the floor when Shaq got injured and he was starting. Add to that, he's rebounding poorly. See how [peeved] we'll be. Even JO taking 14 jumpers per game is too much! but they don't do that. that's why they don't get called out on it. BBD has and he's being called out on it. Add to that the fact that he's an impending FA and he talks a lot and historically, he wanted more money, and you have a lot of people interested in what the team should do with him.

I apologize for misinterpreting your insinuation of my not checking the stats ... I should probably read such posts more than once before replying. I was a bit upset, I guess, that I was being misinterpreted myself, and wanted to respond to that. I don't believe I ever said that Glen was the second-best rebounder on the team, merely that he is second in total rebounds and rebounds-per-game. I also was not trying to say that he didn't play poorly in this game, or a few others, for that matter.

If you read my entire posts, you'll see that I state very clearly that I would never want Big Baby starting in KG's place, except when KG and others are injured and there are few other choices, (like now). I used an extreme example of per-minute stats merely to show how stats, all stats, can be misleading when trying to determine a player's worth, especially, (in the case of per-minute stats), when comparing to other players who have spent much less time on the court.

I think Glen is much better than a lot of people here are giving him credit for, but I also think his best role is not as a starter, but coming off the bench. IMHO, he has been over-achieving in many aspects this year, and I would easily give him my vote for the Sixth Star Award. He's giving us an average of 12.6 points/game, (which is almost double of last year), 1.3 assists, and 5.4 rebounds, not to mention he leads the league by far in taking charges, and that's great stuff to have from any bench player.

I have no problem with being critical of a player when they've had a horrible game or are in a slump, and I'm not blindly defending Big Baby just cuz I like the guy. But I do feel that he has taken more than his share of blame for our losses/problems this year, and has not received enough credit for the good things he's produced for us. Despite his immature decisions at times, I love a player that is always hustling, willing to give up his body to take a charge or go after a loose ball, and injects energy when the rest of the team is lagging. Glen has done these things and more.

Criticizing a player or a team is just part of how we discuss and analyze their performance, and I will be one of the first to admit that he played poorly the other night ... but so did the rest of the team, and there are some people here who are giving the entire blame to him, which I feel is incorrect, (and I'm not saying you're one of them). I just get a bit tired of the "Trade Him" threads that show up every time a guy has a bad game, and overall, I think Big Baby has been a very positive influence to this team, whether or not his rebounding numbers are the best.

TP for the great discussion, LilRip ... I enjoy your contributions, and it's great to have you here at CB!

[KungPoweChicken]

This is why I love the CelticsBlog forum. Great posts by everyone in this discussion!

[Spilling Green Dye]

Wow - man had one bad game....couldn't hit the broad side of a barn....and this thread is up to 5 pages, lol?

Amazing.

Didn't Glen Davis just go for 23 pts and 8 rebs VS a Still VERY GOOD Tim Duncan? His BAD games (like this one) have been few and far between this year.

He has been mentioned in 6th man of the year voting.

He can have a few more 4-17 games, as far as I'm concerned. If it wasn't for his production this year and improved play, we'd have more games lost this year.

He did not have 8 rebounds, he had 2.  But sadly those 2 rebounds in a game were about as much as he's had in any game recently.  This wasn't his first bad game, and what's more alarming is that he doesn't recognize how poorly he's playing.  He's a subpar jump shooter, yet he's routinely settling for jumpers and shooting more shots than anyone on the team.  And he thinks this is ok.  He's all about "getting his".

A lot of us would just like to see him return to a bench role where he focuses on setting picks, rolling towards the hoop for scores, and defensively taking charges wihle trying to get a maximum number of defensive rebounds. 

This team has two starting all-star/hall of fame shooters who are getting shots taken away by Davis.  Conversely this team is in desperate need of rebounding help, yet Davis is failing to contribute here.  What is most frustrating to fans like me is that he doesn't recognize this.