Give it up for Marquis Daniels

[mgent]

One huge reason I give it up for Marquis, in addition to his solid play, is that we don't have to have TA threads on here anymore! Marquis has proved every bit the defender that TA was but can also score, pass the ball, and play some point if needed. Keep it up Marquis. This is exactly why some of us were defending you last year!

I don't think he is defending as well as Tony Allen. He doesn't have the same sort of aggressive ball denial or the quick hands creating turnovers that Tony did last year.

I agree with this, Tony Allen would play super aggressive D and could really get into people's grill. Tony could really disrupt Kobe at times, but Tony also gambled too much and bit on waaaaay too many pump fakes. Marquis can't play that kind of stifling D, but Keys never bites on fakes and seems to always be in the right defensive position. To score on Keys you almost always have to hit a difficult shot, whereas Tony may not even let you get a difficult shot off, but also may give you two freebies at the stripe.

I think overall its easier to score on Marquis, though he puts people on the line less often. Mostly because he denied easy catches much more often. But also because he's less able to aggressively take players out of their spots.

Marquis is also an above average defender on guys his size but a below average defender on anyone stronger than him.  He's only 200lb and a lot of forwards are able to muscle him around easily.

This plus the reason Roy pointed out above (Marquis playing point leaves no one to backup Pierce) is why some people, AKA me, were unsatisfied with not having an actual forward behind Paul.

[Snakehead]

One huge reason I give it up for Marquis, in addition to his solid play, is that we don't have to have TA threads on here anymore! Marquis has proved every bit the defender that TA was but can also score, pass the ball, and play some point if needed. Keep it up Marquis. This is exactly why some of us were defending you last year!

I don't think he is defending as well as Tony Allen. He doesn't have the same sort of aggressive ball denial or the quick hands creating turnovers that Tony did last year.

I agree with this, Tony Allen would play super aggressive D and could really get into people's grill. Tony could really disrupt Kobe at times, but Tony also gambled too much and bit on waaaaay too many pump fakes. Marquis can't play that kind of stifling D, but Keys never bites on fakes and seems to always be in the right defensive position. To score on Keys you almost always have to hit a difficult shot, whereas Tony may not even let you get a difficult shot off, but also may give you two freebies at the stripe.

I think overall its easier to score on Marquis, though he puts people on the line less often. Mostly because he denied easy catches much more often. But also because he's less able to aggressively take players out of their spots.

Marquis is also an above average defender on guys his size but a below average defender on anyone stronger than him.  He's only 200lb and a lot of forwards are able to muscle him around easily.

This plus the reason Roy pointed out above (Marquis playing point leaves no one to backup Pierce) is why some people, AKA me, were unsatisfied with not having an actual forward behind Paul.

I think he can be muscled but he does a better job than you'd think playing physically.  For example he handles LeBron pretty well, about as well as anyone can in a one on one.  And like others said he does a good job making guys shoot over top of his length.  I would not say he is a below average defender on size.  At least you have to give him average, I think he would be above average.

And you're right about Quis and the problems that causes at SF, but that's why we really need Delonte to be back in the rotation so that issue can be solved.  Until then it's a patchwork rotation at the PG and SF spot, we have to play SGs and SFs at PG and whoever is big enough at SF.

[Fafnir]

One huge reason I give it up for Marquis, in addition to his solid play, is that we don't have to have TA threads on here anymore! Marquis has proved every bit the defender that TA was but can also score, pass the ball, and play some point if needed. Keep it up Marquis. This is exactly why some of us were defending you last year!

I don't think he is defending as well as Tony Allen. He doesn't have the same sort of aggressive ball denial or the quick hands creating turnovers that Tony did last year.

I agree with this, Tony Allen would play super aggressive D and could really get into people's grill. Tony could really disrupt Kobe at times, but Tony also gambled too much and bit on waaaaay too many pump fakes. Marquis can't play that kind of stifling D, but Keys never bites on fakes and seems to always be in the right defensive position. To score on Keys you almost always have to hit a difficult shot, whereas Tony may not even let you get a difficult shot off, but also may give you two freebies at the stripe.

I think overall its easier to score on Marquis, though he puts people on the line less often. Mostly because he denied easy catches much more often. But also because he's less able to aggressively take players out of their spots.

Marquis is also an above average defender on guys his size but a below average defender on anyone stronger than him.  He's only 200lb and a lot of forwards are able to muscle him around easily.

This plus the reason Roy pointed out above (Marquis playing point leaves no one to backup Pierce) is why some people, AKA me, were unsatisfied with not having an actual forward behind Paul.

I think he can be muscled but he does a better job than you'd think playing physically.  For example he handles LeBron pretty well, about as well as anyone can in a one on one.  And you're right about Quis and the problems that causes at SF, but that's why we really need Delonte to be back in the rotation so that issue can be solved.  Until then it's a patchwork rotation at the PG and SF spot.

When we've played the Heat this year LeBron has abused Marquis. Whenever Pierce has been off the court LeBron has gotten whatever he wants.

[Snakehead]

One huge reason I give it up for Marquis, in addition to his solid play, is that we don't have to have TA threads on here anymore! Marquis has proved every bit the defender that TA was but can also score, pass the ball, and play some point if needed. Keep it up Marquis. This is exactly why some of us were defending you last year!

I don't think he is defending as well as Tony Allen. He doesn't have the same sort of aggressive ball denial or the quick hands creating turnovers that Tony did last year.

I agree with this, Tony Allen would play super aggressive D and could really get into people's grill. Tony could really disrupt Kobe at times, but Tony also gambled too much and bit on waaaaay too many pump fakes. Marquis can't play that kind of stifling D, but Keys never bites on fakes and seems to always be in the right defensive position. To score on Keys you almost always have to hit a difficult shot, whereas Tony may not even let you get a difficult shot off, but also may give you two freebies at the stripe.

I think overall its easier to score on Marquis, though he puts people on the line less often. Mostly because he denied easy catches much more often. But also because he's less able to aggressively take players out of their spots.

Marquis is also an above average defender on guys his size but a below average defender on anyone stronger than him.  He's only 200lb and a lot of forwards are able to muscle him around easily.

This plus the reason Roy pointed out above (Marquis playing point leaves no one to backup Pierce) is why some people, AKA me, were unsatisfied with not having an actual forward behind Paul.

I think he can be muscled but he does a better job than you'd think playing physically.  For example he handles LeBron pretty well, about as well as anyone can in a one on one.  And you're right about Quis and the problems that causes at SF, but that's why we really need Delonte to be back in the rotation so that issue can be solved.  Until then it's a patchwork rotation at the PG and SF spot.

When we've played the Heat this year LeBron has abused Marquis. Whenever Pierce has been off the court LeBron has gotten whatever he wants.

Who shuts LeBron down?  Pierce does an alright job but LeBron gets whatever he wants against everyone basically. I think you give Pierce too much credit, especially recently. Like I said, I think he does about as good of a job as anyone.  The only time LeBron has been stopped in the last couple seasons it has been with a total, team defensive scheme like we have used against him in the Playoffs not one on one defense.

[Fafnir]

Who shuts LeBron down?  Pierce does an alright job but LeBron gets whatever he wants against everyone basically. I think you give Pierce too much credit, especially recently. Like I said, I think he does about as good of a job as anyone.  The only time LeBron has been stopped in the last couple seasons it has been with a total, team defensive scheme like we have used against him in the Playoffs not one on one defense.

You're moving the goal posts, I never said anything about "shutting LeBron down".

I'm just making the point that this year in our two games against the Heat, LeBron has aggressively taken advantage of Daniels when Pierce is off the court.

[Rondo2287]

Who shuts LeBron down?  Pierce does an alright job but LeBron gets whatever he wants against everyone basically. I think you give Pierce too much credit, especially recently. Like I said, I think he does about as good of a job as anyone.  The only time LeBron has been stopped in the last couple seasons it has been with a total, team defensive scheme like we have used against him in the Playoffs not one on one defense.

You're moving the goal posts, I never said anything about "shutting LeBron down".

I'm just making the point that this year in our two games against the Heat, LeBron has aggressively taken advantage of Daniels when Pierce is off the court.

He isn't talking about shutting down Lebron either, his original point is that Quis handles lebron as well as anybody else.  He is just using the shutting down lebron argument as a benchmark for other players defensive effectiveness against lebron.

[Snakehead]

Who shuts LeBron down?  Pierce does an alright job but LeBron gets whatever he wants against everyone basically. I think you give Pierce too much credit, especially recently. Like I said, I think he does about as good of a job as anyone.  The only time LeBron has been stopped in the last couple seasons it has been with a total, team defensive scheme like we have used against him in the Playoffs not one on one defense.

You're moving the goal posts, I never said anything about "shutting LeBron down".

I'm just making the point that this year in our two games against the Heat, LeBron has aggressively taken advantage of Daniels when Pierce is off the court. He doesn't do "as good of job as anyone", he gets overpowered and blown by.

Alright man I'm not talking either of them shut LeBron down, my point was no one can stop LeBron one on one.  I don't think when Pierce comes out LeBron changes his mindset much at all.  Daniels is simply smaller so he probably does get overpowered more than Pierce does by LeBron but he's not slower than Pierce so he doesn't get blown by more, that's for sure.  They both get blown by because LeBron is much faster and quicker than both of them.

Like others have said, it's a moot point anyway because you are talking about the injured Daniels, since that is what we got almost all of last year.  I don't think there is much difference between Daniels now and Pierce covering LeBron and again, it's about team defense vs LeBron anyway, no one can stop him.  It's about rotation, challenging him to shoot over top, getting in his kickout lanes, and making him take jumpshots (which this year seems even like it wont work because he is making a lot of his jumpers).

Again, you give Pierce too much credit as a defender.  He can withstand more of LeBron's power because he is a bigger guy but he isn't staying in front of LeBron while Quis can't.

[Fafnir]

Who shuts LeBron down?  Pierce does an alright job but LeBron gets whatever he wants against everyone basically. I think you give Pierce too much credit, especially recently. Like I said, I think he does about as good of a job as anyone.  The only time LeBron has been stopped in the last couple seasons it has been with a total, team defensive scheme like we have used against him in the Playoffs not one on one defense.

You're moving the goal posts, I never said anything about "shutting LeBron down".

I'm just making the point that this year in our two games against the Heat, LeBron has aggressively taken advantage of Daniels when Pierce is off the court.

He isn't talking about shutting down Lebron either, his original point is that Quis handles lebron as well as anybody else.  He is just using the shutting down lebron argument as a benchmark for other players defensive effectiveness against lebron.

But that's my point, he's basically making the excuse that because LeBron is awesome we shouldn't expect Marquis to do a better job on him. In my mind that's shifting the goal posts.

This is after saying he loves the defense Marquis has played on LeBron, which has been poor this year. Pierce does much better on LeBron than Marquis. Though strangely the last two years Ray has had the most success for the C's on him. (small sample size of minutes probably explains that)

[Fafnir]

Like others have said, it's a moot point anyway because you are talking about the injured Daniels, since that is what we got almost all of last year. 

I'm speaking of specifically the two games this year.

I think there is a noticable difference between the defense of Paul Pierce and Marquis Daniels on LeBron. Specifically in the third quarter of the first game once Daniels entered for Pierce LeBron scored 11 points and assisted an Eddie House three.

In the second game LeBron got Pierce in foul trouble and immediately got another series of buckets in the first half.

I don't think Daniels does a good job against James at all, he is unable to slow LeBron enough for effective help from the rest of the Celtics team.

[KCattheStripe]

Like others have said, it's a moot point anyway because you are talking about the injured Daniels, since that is what we got almost all of last year. 

I'm speaking of specifically the two games this year.

I think there is a noticable difference between the defense of Paul Pierce and Marquis Daniels on LeBron. Specifically in the third quarter of the first game once Daniels entered for Pierce LeBron scored 11 points and assisted an Eddie House three.

In the second game LeBron got Pierce in foul trouble and immediately got another series of buckets in the first half.

I don't think Daniels does a good job against James at all, he is unable to slow LeBron enough for effective help from the rest of the Celtics team.

In Daniel's defense, LeBron's an impossible cover for almost any small forward not named Pierce or 08 Posey, it's almost impossible for other SF's to bully him the way those two do. What we get from Daniel's is about the league average defense on Lebron, which coming from your bench isn't a horrendous option.

[Snakehead]

Who shuts LeBron down?  Pierce does an alright job but LeBron gets whatever he wants against everyone basically. I think you give Pierce too much credit, especially recently. Like I said, I think he does about as good of a job as anyone.  The only time LeBron has been stopped in the last couple seasons it has been with a total, team defensive scheme like we have used against him in the Playoffs not one on one defense.

You're moving the goal posts, I never said anything about "shutting LeBron down".

I'm just making the point that this year in our two games against the Heat, LeBron has aggressively taken advantage of Daniels when Pierce is off the court.

He isn't talking about shutting down Lebron either, his original point is that Quis handles lebron as well as anybody else.  He is just using the shutting down lebron argument as a benchmark for other players defensive effectiveness against lebron.

But that's my point, he's basically making the excuse that because LeBron is awesome we shouldn't expect Marquis to do a better job on him. In my mind that's shifting the goal posts.

This is after saying he loves the defense Marquis has played on LeBron, which has been poor this year. Pierce does much better on LeBron than Marquis. Though strangely the last two years Ray has had the most success for the C's on him. (small sample size of minutes probably explains that)

Twist my words?  I didn't say Marquis shouldn't be expected to do a better job, again he geets muscled more because he is smaller but he is not much different than Pierce, I guess we will just have to disagree there.

And I said I "love" the defense Quis plays on LeBron?  LOL, didn't remember writing that.  I don't "love" the defense any individual defender plays on LeBron because according to the way games are officiated and how you can't handcheck on the perimeter LeBron is not really possible to stop in a one on one situation.  You must respond to him with a total team defensive scheme, we have proved that time and time again.  I don't know how you say Pierce does a much better job when he still gives up plenty of points and plays like everyone else does and the fact that LeBron is stopped is most often due to help from other defenders, like KG.

I think Pierce is a solid defender but to say he is so much better than Quis on LeBron really I do not understand.  There have been some games where I remember him affecting LeBron in the past, but in most of those games you saw him unable to contribute offensively and in recent times Pierce hasn't been able to stop him at all.  Not a fault of his, again due to LeBron's skills and physical qualities and the rules you really can't stop him in a one on one.

So maybe you'll read what I'm writing this time: Quis is not great on LeBron, just he is about the same as Pierce.

You can pick some game out where LeBron scored points where Quis was in but I could easily point to a time where LeBron scored a series of points on Pierce too.



So we disagree, that's fine, just acknowledge what I said and don't say I "love" Quis' D on LeBron.

[Roy H.]

Who shuts LeBron down?  Pierce does an alright job but LeBron gets whatever he wants against everyone basically. I think you give Pierce too much credit, especially recently. Like I said, I think he does about as good of a job as anyone.  The only time LeBron has been stopped in the last couple seasons it has been with a total, team defensive scheme like we have used against him in the Playoffs not one on one defense.

You're moving the goal posts, I never said anything about "shutting LeBron down".

I'm just making the point that this year in our two games against the Heat, LeBron has aggressively taken advantage of Daniels when Pierce is off the court.

I'm not sure if this is true.  I went through the game flows for the two Heat games this year, and when Marquis was substituting for Pierce, here's how he did on Lebron:

Game 1 First quarter:  0-2 jumpers, 0 points, 0 assists, 1 turnover

Game 1 Third quarter:  2-3 jumpers, 1-1 drive, 2-2 FTs, 9 points, 1 assists, 1 turnover

Game 2 First quarter:  1-3 jumpers, 2 points, 1 assist, 1 turnover

Game 2 Second quarter: 1-1 drive, 4-6 FTs (including 1 tech), 0 assists, 6 points

Game 2 Third quarter / Fourth quarter:  0 points, 0 assists

Marquis played 13 minutes in Game 1 (although some of those were beside Pierce), and 17 minutes in Game 2.  

Combined, Lebron scored 17 points on 4-9 shooting from the field, with 2 assists and 3 turnovers.  He scored on two drives, and got to the line four more times (plus a 5th trip for a technical), although not all of those FTs can be attributed to Marquis.  

That doesn't paint the picture of Marquis locking down Pierce, but it also doesn't show a guy being repeatedly burned, in my opinion.  

====================================

EDIT:  To recap:

Games 1 & 2, Lebron's stats with Marquis playing SF:  17 points on 4-9 shooting from the field, with 2 assists and 3 turnovers

Games 1 & 2, Lebron's stats with anybody put Marquis playing SF: 49 points, 10 assists, 15-33 FG, 19-26 FTs, 9 turnovers

[Snakehead]

That is why you are a better man than I Roy, I would not go do that quality research, TP. 

Not that surprised that the numbers don't show Quis getting lit up or LeBron suddenly taking a ton of FGs like when Quis is out there it is some moment of opportunity where Pierce's D has stifled out his ability to score.  Looks like he plays pretty much like he always does.  Defending LeBron is a team effort and Quis is probably just about the same as Pierce in one-on-one defense.

[j804]

Who shuts LeBron down?  Pierce does an alright job but LeBron gets whatever he wants against everyone basically. I think you give Pierce too much credit, especially recently. Like I said, I think he does about as good of a job as anyone.  The only time LeBron has been stopped in the last couple seasons it has been with a total, team defensive scheme like we have used against him in the Playoffs not one on one defense.

You're moving the goal posts, I never said anything about "shutting LeBron down".

I'm just making the point that this year in our two games against the Heat, LeBron has aggressively taken advantage of Daniels when Pierce is off the court.

I'm not sure if this is true.  I went through the game flows for the two Heat games this year, and when Marquis was substituting for Pierce, here's how he did on Lebron:

Game 1 First quarter:  0-2 jumpers, 0 points, 0 assists, 1 turnover

Game 1 Third quarter:  2-3 jumpers, 1-1 drive, 2-2 FTs, 9 points, 1 assists, 1 turnover

Game 2 First quarter:  1-3 jumpers, 2 points, 1 assist, 1 turnover

Game 2 Second quarter: 1-1 drive, 4-6 FTs (including 1 tech), 0 assists, 6 points

Game 2 Third quarter / Fourth quarter:  0 points, 0 assists

Marquis played 13 minutes in Game 1 (although some of those were beside Pierce), and 17 minutes in Game 2.  

Combined, Lebron scored 17 points on 4-9 shooting from the field, with 2 assists and 3 turnovers.  He scored on two drives, and got to the line four more times (plus a 5th trip for a technical), although not all of those FTs can be attributed to Marquis.  

That doesn't paint the picture of Marquis locking down Pierce, but it also doesn't show a guy being repeatedly burned, in my opinion.  

====================================

EDIT:  To recap:

Games 1 & 2, Lebron's stats with Marquis playing SF:  17 points on 4-9 shooting from the field, with 2 assists and 3 turnovers

Games 1 & 2, Lebron's stats with anybody put Marquis playing SF: 49 points, 10 assists, 15-33 FG, 19-26 FTs, 9 turnovers

Beleedat

[Fafnir]

Who shuts LeBron down?  Pierce does an alright job but LeBron gets whatever he wants against everyone basically. I think you give Pierce too much credit, especially recently. Like I said, I think he does about as good of a job as anyone.  The only time LeBron has been stopped in the last couple seasons it has been with a total, team defensive scheme like we have used against him in the Playoffs not one on one defense.

You're moving the goal posts, I never said anything about "shutting LeBron down".

I'm just making the point that this year in our two games against the Heat, LeBron has aggressively taken advantage of Daniels when Pierce is off the court.

I'm not sure if this is true.  I went through the game flows for the two Heat games this year, and when Marquis was substituting for Pierce, here's how he did on Lebron:

Game 1 First quarter:  0-2 jumpers, 0 points, 0 assists, 1 turnover

Game 1 Third quarter:  2-3 jumpers, 1-1 drive, 2-2 FTs, 9 points, 1 assists, 1 turnover

Game 2 First quarter:  1-3 jumpers, 2 points, 1 assist, 1 turnover

Game 2 Second quarter: 1-1 drive, 4-6 FTs (including 1 tech), 0 assists, 6 points

Game 2 Third quarter / Fourth quarter:  0 points, 0 assists

Marquis played 13 minutes in Game 1 (although some of those were beside Pierce), and 17 minutes in Game 2.  

Combined, Lebron scored 17 points on 4-9 shooting from the field, with 2 assists and 3 turnovers.  He scored on two drives, and got to the line four more times (plus a 5th trip for a technical), although not all of those FTs can be attributed to Marquis.  

That doesn't paint the picture of Marquis locking down Pierce, but it also doesn't show a guy being repeatedly burned, in my opinion.  

====================================

EDIT:  To recap:

Games 1 & 2, Lebron's stats with Marquis playing SF:  17 points on 4-9 shooting from the field, with 2 assists and 3 turnovers

Games 1 & 2, Lebron's stats with anybody put Marquis playing SF: 49 points, 10 assists, 15-33 FG, 19-26 FTs, 9 turnovers

Thanks for the gameflow write up I glanced at them but didn't put the time in like you did TP.

I'll have to go watch the games, but LeBron keyed a run in the first game that made up 6 or 7 points (most of the C's lead) with Marquis in the game.

Marquis only played 6 minutes of SF in the first game, and 10 minutes at SF in the second game.