Ongoing NFL draft chat

[Eja117]

I expect Bill to trade the 33rd pick, hopefully for a first rounder next year giving us 3 first rounders. 

I don't really mind him not using both firsts.  I didnt think that he would first of all, and its what the pats do in the draft.  In his 11 years drafting he has taken 6 olb/de's why are people continually surprised when he doesnt take them?  I don't know why he doesnt take them but its clear that he does not like doing it.

I do kinda mind that they keep trading back and I'm starting to not buy the "value" pitch.

So what if they get a 1rst rounder this year.

If you trade a first rounder for a first rounder next year and every single year you take that extra 1rst and rade down to a second and a first the next year, then all you're really doing is trading 1rsts for 2nds next year.

It makes me think he's planning on cashing in all the chips when Brady retires, but in the mean time he's missing on chances to win with Brady right now.

I am so tired of getting to the 2nd rnd and thinking "well all the talent is pretty much gone"

I do find it notable that 0 safeties or ILBs and only 1 OLB were taken, but I guess there are reasons for that

[Chris]

I am so tired of getting to the 2nd rnd and thinking "well all the talent is pretty much gone"

While I agree to a point, I would argue that the same statement could be made at 28, other than Ingram.  So, I think it came down to what they thought of Ingram, because there were no other top talents left (well, that didn't have very alarming knee injuries).

I would have had much more of a problem if they had traded down from 17 (and I still would have been happier if they traded up a couple spots for Quinn or perhaps Fairley), but once you get to the spots where you are not getting a close to guaranteed impact player, trading down is not terrible, because it gets you an extra roll of the dice. 

The problem of course is that I think its hard to argue that Ingram was not an elite talent...but I guess that just goes back to how much they value RB's in general.

[Donoghus]

I expect Bill to trade the 33rd pick, hopefully for a first rounder next year giving us 3 first rounders. 

I don't really mind him not using both firsts.  I didnt think that he would first of all, and its what the pats do in the draft.  In his 11 years drafting he has taken 6 olb/de's why are people continually surprised when he doesnt take them?  I don't know why he doesnt take them but its clear that he does not like doing it.

I do kinda mind that they keep trading back and I'm starting to not buy the "value" pitch.

So what if they get a 1rst rounder this year.

If you trade a first rounder for a first rounder next year and every single year you take that extra 1rst and rade down to a second and a first the next year, then all you're really doing is trading 1rsts for 2nds next year.

It makes me think he's planning on cashing in all the chips when Brady retires, but in the mean time he's missing on chances to win with Brady right now.

I am so tired of getting to the 2nd rnd and thinking "well all the talent is pretty much gone"

I do find it notable that 0 safeties or ILBs and only 1 OLB were taken, but I guess there are reasons for that

I don't think they'll ever be a draft where they "cash all their chips in".  I honestly believe they do this year after year to maintain flexibility and allow them the assets to freely move up or down or trade for established players. 

[Rondo2287]

I also wanna throw it out there that they kinda had a cash it all in mentality the last few years which is why they didnt have their usual number of picks stocked up for next year already.


For Instance in the last two years we have taken one first 6 2nd rounders and 3 3rds(like them or not)

Mccourty

Chung
Brace
Butler
Spikes
Gronk
Cunningham

Tate
Price
Mckenzie

[Cman]

I'm fine with BB's strategy.

People who don't like BB's strategy of trading for future firsts seem to forget that the reason the Pats even have a shot at picking high in the first is because he's traded for a future first.

Case in point: selecting Mayo (that wasn't the Pats own pick, it was one they acquired from San Francisco IIRC).

Case in point: selecting Solder (that wasn't the Pats own pick, it was the one they acquired from Oakland). 

BB has basically created a situation where the Pats are able to pick higher than they would if they only had their own pick in the first round each year, and pick an extra 2nd round pick each year.

[Rondo2287]

I'm fine with BB's strategy.

People who don't like BB's strategy of trading for future firsts seem to forget that the reason the Pats even have a shot at picking high in the first is because he's traded for a future first.

Case in point: selecting Mayo (that wasn't the Pats own pick, it was one they acquired from San Francisco IIRC).

Case in point: selecting Solder (that wasn't the Pats own pick, it was the one they acquired from Oakland). 

BB has basically created a situation where the Pats are able to pick higher than they would if they only had their own pick in the first round each year, and pick an extra 2nd round pick each year.

All while putting 14-2 teams on the field mind you

[KG Living Legend]

 Here's the deal. Bill is an outstanding coach, one of the best of all time.

 He is also an average talent evaluator at best.

 The 2009 Draft class is a perfect example.

 Go back and look at Crownsy's post on page 16 of this post.

 Here is my take on things, there is usually only one or two Blue chip studs at every position in the NFL draft.
 Similar to the NBA when there is one or two great big men, one or two great PG's and one or two great swing men.

 Now go back and look at the 2009 NFL draft on Wiki, it like most drafts,  very thin and if you were to find a Blue chip guy you better draft him as soon as you can.

 The top talent left on most Draft boards with the 23rd pick was in order Vontae Davis CB, Clay Mathews OLB, Hakeem Knicks WR, and Lesean McCoy RB.

 Given the board and are needs the easy pick is Mathews, I also would have loved Hakeem with that pick, and Vontae is a very strong and fast cover corner.

 Clay had limited production in college, but was, and is the #1 rated prospect at his positon.

 Hakeem was the # three reciever  behind, Harvin and Maclin, and he's a really good pro.

 What did we do with that pick? we traded it twice and ended up with Darius Butler, the forth corner off the board that year.

 Now you can see why it's so important to get the best talent you can, instead of waiting for value later.

 Vontae the number two corner selected is a starter in this league. And Darius has been back and forth and has not been impressive at all.

 We also selected Ron Brace at 40 that year and he has been average at best to this point.

 In summary we had a first and three two's that year.

 That we turned into Ron Brace, Darius Butler, Chung, and Vollmer. 50% hit with the other two not looking good IMO.

 We could have had Vontae Davis or Clay Mathews with the first pick, easy selections for most GM's.

 Still take Chung with the 34th pick, the Matt Cassel pick.

 And instead of Brace at 40 take any of the Guards that were really good, or a back like McCoy or Shonne Greene.

 Quality over quanity please.

 

[elcotte]

 Here's the deal. Bill is an outstanding coach, one of the best of all time.

 He is also an average talent evaluator at best.

 The 2009 Draft class is a perfect example.

 Go back and look at Crownsy's post on page 16 of this post.

 Here is my take on things, there is usually only one or two Blue chip studs at every position in the NFL draft.
 Similar to the NBA when there is one or two great big men, one or two great PG's and one or two great swing men.

 Now go back and look at the 2009 NFL draft on Wiki, it like most drafts,  very thin and if you were to find a Blue chip guy you better draft him as soon as you can.

 The top talent left on most Draft boards with the 23rd pick was in order Vontae Davis CB, Clay Mathews OLB, Hakeem Knicks WR, and Lesean McCoy RB.

 Given the board and are needs the easy pick is Mathews, I also would have loved Hakeem with that pick, and Vontae is a very strong and fast cover corner.

 Clay had limited production in college, but was, and is the #1 rated prospect at his positon.

 Hakeem was the # three reciever  behind, Harvin and Maclin, and he's a really good pro.

 What did we do with that pick? we traded it twice and ended up with Darius Butler, the forth corner off the board that year.

 Now you can see why it's so important to get the best talent you can, instead of waiting for value later.

 Vontae the number two corner selected is a starter in this league. And Darius has been back and forth and has not been impressive at all.

 We also selected Ron Brace at 40 that year and he has been average at best to this point.

 In summary we had a first and three two's that year.

 That we turned into Ron Brace, Darius Butler, Chung, and Vollmer. 50% hit with the other two not looking good IMO.

 We could have had Vontae Davis or Clay Mathews with the first pick, easy selections for most GM's.

 Still take Chung with the 34th pick, the Matt Cassel pick.

 And instead of Brace at 40 take any of the Guards that were really good, or a back like McCoy or Shonne Greene.

 Quality over quanity please.

 
They are also managing a budget. They see more value for money in rounds 2 and 3 than in one. The multiple round 1 picks gives them leverage in every draft.
I like the strategy.

[Rondo2287]

This is the Mathews trade, its not like your describing at all


26. Patriots (Trade down to Packers)
Packers receive:

•2009 first round pick, 26, pick LB Clay Matthews III
•2009 fifth round pick, 162, pick tackle Jamon Meredith (later released by Packers)
Patriots get:
•2009 second round pick, 41, pick DB Darius Butler
•2009 third round pick, 73, pick DB Derek Cox
•2009 third round pick, 83, pick WR Brandon Tate
Patriots trade Cox to Jaguars.

Patriots get:

•2009 seventh round pick, 232, pick WR Julian Edelman
•2010 second round, 44, traded that pick to the Raiders for 42 to pick TE Rob Gronkowski
(Raiders get second-round pick, 44, DT Lamarr Houston; sixth-round pick, 190 pick LB Travis Goethel)

So, basically, you could have either Clay Matthews, or Darius Butler, Brandon Tate, Julian Edelman and Rob Gronkowski. (Though the Patriots probably still could have made the Gronkowski trade among other moves).

[Roy H.]

This is the Mathews trade, its not like your describing at all


26. Patriots (Trade down to Packers)
Packers receive:

•2009 first round pick, 26, pick LB Clay Matthews III
•2009 fifth round pick, 162, pick tackle Jamon Meredith (later released by Packers)
Patriots get:
•2009 second round pick, 41, pick DB Darius Butler
•2009 third round pick, 73, pick DB Derek Cox
•2009 third round pick, 83, pick WR Brandon Tate
Patriots trade Cox to Jaguars.

Patriots get:

•2009 seventh round pick, 232, pick WR Julian Edelman
•2010 second round, 44, traded that pick to the Raiders for 42 to pick TE Rob Gronkowski
(Raiders get second-round pick, 44, DT Lamarr Houston; sixth-round pick, 190 pick LB Travis Goethel)

So, basically, you could have either Clay Matthews, or Darius Butler, Brandon Tate, Julian Edelman and Rob Gronkowski. (Though the Patriots probably still could have made the Gronkowski trade among other moves).

Give me Matthews, especially since they could have picked up some of those other guys with picks they already had.

[Rondo2287]

This is the Mathews trade, its not like your describing at all


26. Patriots (Trade down to Packers)
Packers receive:

•2009 first round pick, 26, pick LB Clay Matthews III
•2009 fifth round pick, 162, pick tackle Jamon Meredith (later released by Packers)
Patriots get:
•2009 second round pick, 41, pick DB Darius Butler
•2009 third round pick, 73, pick DB Derek Cox
•2009 third round pick, 83, pick WR Brandon Tate
Patriots trade Cox to Jaguars.

Patriots get:

•2009 seventh round pick, 232, pick WR Julian Edelman
•2010 second round, 44, traded that pick to the Raiders for 42 to pick TE Rob Gronkowski
(Raiders get second-round pick, 44, DT Lamarr Houston; sixth-round pick, 190 pick LB Travis Goethel)

So, basically, you could have either Clay Matthews, or Darius Butler, Brandon Tate, Julian Edelman and Rob Gronkowski. (Though the Patriots probably still could have made the Gronkowski trade among other moves).

Give me Matthews, especially since they could have picked up some of those other guys with picks they already had.

Don't get me wrong, I like Mathews but to say, would you rather have mathews or butler isnt telling the whole story.  However I do think Gronkowski may have been one of the most impressive first year players I have seen in a long time.  Dude has the potential to be a perenial probowler. Just an absolute freak

[Chris]

This is the Mathews trade, its not like your describing at all


26. Patriots (Trade down to Packers)
Packers receive:

•2009 first round pick, 26, pick LB Clay Matthews III
•2009 fifth round pick, 162, pick tackle Jamon Meredith (later released by Packers)
Patriots get:
•2009 second round pick, 41, pick DB Darius Butler
•2009 third round pick, 73, pick DB Derek Cox
•2009 third round pick, 83, pick WR Brandon Tate
Patriots trade Cox to Jaguars.

Patriots get:

•2009 seventh round pick, 232, pick WR Julian Edelman
•2010 second round, 44, traded that pick to the Raiders for 42 to pick TE Rob Gronkowski
(Raiders get second-round pick, 44, DT Lamarr Houston; sixth-round pick, 190 pick LB Travis Goethel)

So, basically, you could have either Clay Matthews, or Darius Butler, Brandon Tate, Julian Edelman and Rob Gronkowski. (Though the Patriots probably still could have made the Gronkowski trade among other moves).

Give me Matthews, especially since they could have picked up some of those other guys with picks they already had.

Yeah, I think this is an extreme example.  When you miss on a superstar, its tough to rationalize.  If you take Matthews out of the equation though, it is a good example of the thinking.

If Matthews ended up being a normal late first round pick, that scenario would have been huge in the Pats favor.  They just missed out because he turned out being one of the top 3 or 4 players in the entire draft (which means a whole lot of other teams messed that up just as much).  

[Cman]

Quality over quanity please.

But BB does get the quality as well.

In other words, people who don't like BB point out either or both of (1) missed Clay Matthews pick, (2) Laurence Maroney (focusing on first round, here).

But never on the positive trades, like the one from the first round last year, which was basically:
Dez Bryant and AJ Edds for Devin McCourty, Taylor Price, Aaron Hernandez.

It's not that I want to argue that BB is a genius draft master, but instead to suggest that you look at the body of work, not just pick out one or two examples as "proof" of genius or not.

[Roy H.]

So, who are the Pats trading with?  Bengals?  Raiders?

[Big_Matt34]

LOL@Gruden saying the Pats should take a QB with this pick, yeah okay, maybe tomorrow.

With the 33rd pick, the Patriots have selected Rasi Dowling, if he wasn't hurt last year, he would have been a top 25 pick.

I like it, dude has great cover skills, is 6'1, and will be a great fit with McCourtey/Bodden. With his size, wouldn't be suprised to see him play some safety too.