Author Topic: **** at Tony Allen  (Read 22231 times)

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Re: **** at Tony Allen
« Reply #60 on: December 02, 2010, 04:12:31 PM »

Offline CDawg834

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Tony seems to have made a bad decision for himself if he was hoping for more playing time (though I doubt he'd be getting much more than that in Boston), but that doesn't make him a moron.  I'm guessing that smart people make mistakes too.

And I'd be cautious about assuming someone's level of intelligence from a conversation and a person's use of cultural dialect.  America is flooded with folks who don't speak 'the Queen's English' but who are nonetheless quite bright. 

Larry Bird (especially early in his career) and Mayor Menino come to mind.

True, although Tony's trip to junior college suggest that he wasn't exactly an Academic All-American in high school.  His criminal record also backs up his poor decision making.


I wonder what you would have said about Einstein?

Apples and oranges.  If you have D1 talent (which Tony obviously did), then there's usually only one way you don't get a scholarship out of high school: Academic Ineligiblity.

Re: **** at Tony Allen
« Reply #61 on: December 02, 2010, 04:15:02 PM »

Offline SalmonAndMashedPotatoes

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Sorry. When you have NBA level talent and size like TA does, going to junior college has nothing to do with his family's financial sutation. It has everything to do with him being dumb as a post or too undisciplined to study just a little bit to be able to get into a D-1 school. Watching him over the years he was here I'd have to say a lot of both.

Of course, you can look at it this way.  And guys like Derrick Rose prove you right--his SAT score was so low that they wouldn't admit him to college.  That only changed when Memphis had somebody take the SAT for him.  So, yes, there are ways around the system, provided your talent is THAT GOOD.

That exceptional situation aside (how many players are worth potential NCAA violations to bring in?), socioeconomic situation is the #1 indicator of whether someone goes to college.  

It all starts when you're very young and it starts in the home.  For those low on the socioeconomic latter, there's probably not one college graduate in the household.  That's strike #1--no positive role models, nobody to tell you that you need to go to college.

Strike #2, if you're low on the socioeconomic latter, you probably live in a poor neighborhood, and schools in poor neighborhoods are probably underfunded and therefore provide less academic structure and guidance, meaning they turn out less college graduates per student.  Not only do you not have anyone telling you to go to college, you go to a high school that's unable to prepare you for college.

Strike #3 is that you don't have any money, and that affects every thing you do (or don't do).  Money buys time, so instead of studying at night, or reading books over the summer, you're sleeping in a cold house without electricity enough to turn a light on to read with, or you're on the streets getting into trouble, or maybe playing basketball every waking moment because that's the one good thing you have in your life.  And even if you did like books, did have money to put the lights on, you're probably living in a single-parent family who is unable to provide guidance or structure to your life.  

So, you've got no role models, you live in the projects, school sucks, you don't have any structure that makes you want to better yourself, and you think you can just go from that to college with a little elbow grease and hard work?  Some are lucky enough to do that, but for the majority their socioeconomic status dooms them to a life of little education and low earning potential.    
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Re: **** at Tony Allen
« Reply #62 on: December 02, 2010, 04:34:01 PM »

Offline vinnie

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I've been shaking my head all day about the statement that Celtics fans don't like Tony Allen because he is "too black." Just might be one of the dumbest things I have ever read. I for one did not Liike Tony Allen's game because he was a major liability on offense and turned the ball over too much.

Re: **** at Tony Allen
« Reply #63 on: December 02, 2010, 04:36:16 PM »

Offline CDawg834

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Sorry. When you have NBA level talent and size like TA does, going to junior college has nothing to do with his family's financial sutation. It has everything to do with him being dumb as a post or too undisciplined to study just a little bit to be able to get into a D-1 school. Watching him over the years he was here I'd have to say a lot of both.

Of course, you can look at it this way.  And guys like Derrick Rose prove you right--his SAT score was so low that they wouldn't admit him to college.  That only changed when Memphis had somebody take the SAT for him.  So, yes, there are ways around the system, provided your talent is THAT GOOD.

That exceptional situation aside (how many players are worth potential NCAA violations to bring in?), socioeconomic situation is the #1 indicator of whether someone goes to college.  

It all starts when you're very young and it starts in the home.  For those low on the socioeconomic latter, there's probably not one college graduate in the household.  That's strike #1--no positive role models, nobody to tell you that you need to go to college.

Strike #2, if you're low on the socioeconomic latter, you probably live in a poor neighborhood, and schools in poor neighborhoods are probably underfunded and therefore provide less academic structure and guidance, meaning they turn out less college graduates per student.  Not only do you not have anyone telling you to go to college, you go to a high school that's unable to prepare you for college.

Strike #3 is that you don't have any money, and that affects every thing you do (or don't do).  Money buys time, so instead of studying at night, or reading books over the summer, you're sleeping in a cold house without electricity enough to turn a light on to read with, or you're on the streets getting into trouble, or maybe playing basketball every waking moment because that's the one good thing you have in your life.  And even if you did like books, did have money to put the lights on, you're probably living in a single-parent family who is unable to provide guidance or structure to your life.  

So, you've got no role models, you live in the projects, school sucks, you don't have any structure that makes you want to better yourself, and you think you can just go from that to college with a little elbow grease and hard work?  Some are lucky enough to do that, but for the majority their socioeconomic status dooms them to a life of little education and low earning potential.    

You're 100% right when it comes to the average kid growing up in that kind of environment.  But I think kids with D1 and NBA talent are the exception to the rule (including TA).  Even with at least below average grades and SAT scores, you're gonna get a D1 scholarship.

Re: **** at Tony Allen
« Reply #64 on: December 02, 2010, 05:46:36 PM »

Offline Brendan

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First of all - you describe the worst possible low economic situation. Is Tony Allen really from that bad of an environment? Second of all, while inner city schools under perform, they are not generally under funded on a per student basis compared to well performing schools, instead it seems the culture of the community and the parents have a lot more influence then the cash pumped in.

Here's the eligibility for playing ball: (these might have changed since TA played, but close enough.)
Quote
4 years of English
3 years of mathematics (Algebra I or higher)
2 years of natural/physical science (one must be a lab science)
1 year of additional science, math or English
2 years of social studies
4 years of additional core courses (they can be from any listed above or from nondoctrinal religion or philosophy or foreign language)

The "sliding scale" used by the NCAA now allows a higher core GPA to reduce the SAT component. A 2.5 core GPA will still need a 820 SAT score, a higher core GPA of 2.75  will need a 720 SAT score, a 3.0 core GPA will only require a 620 SAT score and a 3.55 core GPA will just need a 400 SAT score. The NCAA has stated that their research now indicates that core class grades were the best indicators of academic success during a student-athlete’s freshman year.

Now you get a lot of chances in life - and I wouldn't hold the JuCo thing against anybody - in fact with the cost of college these days, it's probably a good route for everyone to consider unless money is not an issue, i.e. the wealthy and those getting scholarships.

But TA was knucklehead in college (suspended for a fight amongst other issues), he's been a knucklehead in the pros (legal trouble, bone head plays, the dunk injury) - this is a pattern and their is no evidence of change.

Finally I think what was meant by two black is "culturally too inner city." This raises two questions:

1. Since its been stipulated that this culture is at least somewhat responsible for negative things (like the bad schools), isn't it right to criticize someone for being too tied to it?

2. Does this apply to white players that might "act black"? For example if someone with Eminem's background was a great PG with attitude issues - would be right as saying "he's not embraced because he's too black?"

Re: **** at Tony Allen
« Reply #65 on: December 02, 2010, 05:56:27 PM »

Offline birdwatcher

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it's too bad we don't have a single player on this roster I would want to trade for him--we'd actually save money by trading for him than by signing him over last summer since he took less money, an obviously less minutes.

Re: **** at Tony Allen
« Reply #66 on: December 02, 2010, 06:47:23 PM »

Offline SalmonAndMashedPotatoes

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I'm not attacking the messanger I'm saying your message is a bad one. You're shifting the goalpost on us here. Race has a huge effect on perception in all human beings. I'm not disputing that, nor do I disupte that racial coding happens a lot in society (look at southern politics). But that's not what you said.

Instead you're saying that the explanation for the majority of Celtics fan's views of Tony as a player is racial. Furthermore I think you're ignoring the important point that every player on the Celtics recieves a ton of scrutiny, Tony isn't unique in that regard.

The goalposts remain stationary.  It's not my fault you didn't understand what I said originally, or that you actually agree with me now that you know what I'm getting at--those are your problems. 
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Re: **** at Tony Allen
« Reply #67 on: December 02, 2010, 06:49:47 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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I'm not attacking the messanger I'm saying your message is a bad one. You're shifting the goalpost on us here. Race has a huge effect on perception in all human beings. I'm not disputing that, nor do I disupte that racial coding happens a lot in society (look at southern politics). But that's not what you said.

Instead you're saying that the explanation for the majority of Celtics fan's views of Tony as a player is racial. Furthermore I think you're ignoring the important point that every player on the Celtics recieves a ton of scrutiny, Tony isn't unique in that regard.

The goalposts remain stationary.  It's not my fault you didn't understand what I said originally, or that you actually agree with me now that you know what I'm getting at--those are your problems.  
Really?

So you still believe the reason that the majority of Celtic fans didn't embrace Tony Allen is that he was "too Black"? Because I don't agree with you on that. I also don't agree with you that Tony Allen received irrational criticism because of it.

Re: **** at Tony Allen
« Reply #68 on: December 02, 2010, 06:51:12 PM »

Offline Kane3387

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True, although Tony's trip to junior college suggest that he wasn't exactly an Academic All-American in high school.  His criminal record also backs up his poor decision making.

Going to junior college (or community college) has a lot more to do with one's socioeconomic condition than it does with one's intellectual abilities.  


Sorry. When you have NBA level talent and size like TA does, going to junior college has nothing to do with his family's financial sutation. It has everything to do with him being dumb as a post or too undisciplined to study just a little bit to be able to get into a D-1 school. Watching him over the years he was here I'd have to say a lot of both.

This is exactly right. I am not running from what I said. You can tell when you talk to people if they have a below average IQ. There is a reason the man went to Oklahoma State just like Dez Bryant and Prentice Elliot did. OSU's academic standards for athletes are some of the lowest in the nation. As are there requirements for character. See JamesOn Curry. I live in Oklahoma. I see it. Dez is registered as Learning Disabled so he had to go to a school like OSU. I am not bashing them for being born with disabilities or anything like that. But the fact is, he is stupid and made a stupid decision in leaving Boston. I am laughing at him purely for leaving the BOSTON CELTICS for the memphis grizzlies when the money was basically the same. He didn;t get more money. That's why DA was so confused about his decision.

If he really wanted to show off his talents then he does like he did last year and like Posey did by performing well on the big stage in the playoffs and the finals. His defense on Kobe is why he got that contract. For the next two years he could have increased his value dramatically by having similar performances in the playoffs. Instead he will likely be a throw in in a trade at the deadline this year or next because Memphis doesn't need him. They need to grow the games of Conley Mayo Gay and Henry and that is what they will do.


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Re: **** at Tony Allen
« Reply #69 on: December 02, 2010, 07:06:33 PM »

Offline SalmonAndMashedPotatoes

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First of all - you describe the worst possible low economic situation. Is Tony Allen really from that bad of an environment? Second of all, while inner city schools under perform, they are not generally under funded on a per student basis compared to well performing schools, instead it seems the culture of the community and the parents have a lot more influence then the cash pumped in.

Tony Allen comes from the south side of Chicago, one of the worst places on earth.  Yes, it was that bad for him.  One of the reasons TA wants to get into education once he retires is to give back to children and provide them with the education and support he found lacking as a child in a poor neighborhood.

But you're partly right, the culture of the community and the parents are huge factors--that is why socioeconomic condition is so important, because the cycle of poverty and a lack of education and opportunity goes from generation to generation.  If your parents are poor, and they raise you in a poor environment, it's very hard to escape the cycle--only the exceptional ones and those who matriculate through the right outreach programs can escape (and those who find other means of escape, like athletes, musicians, etc.).  At the same time, if your parents are rich and you're raised in that environment, you tend to stay at that level even if you neglect your studies or are otherwise unworthy of that station in life.

But not all schools are created equal.  Going to an affluent school on the East cost is not the same as going to one in the mid-west, nor is there much equality between high schools in affluent neighborhoods out east and poorer neighborhoods in the same cities.  Culture goes hand in hand with socioeconomic opportunity.

Here's the eligibility for playing ball: (these might have changed since TA played, but close enough.)
Quote
4 years of English
3 years of mathematics (Algebra I or higher)
2 years of natural/physical science (one must be a lab science)
1 year of additional science, math or English
2 years of social studies
4 years of additional core courses (they can be from any listed above or from nondoctrinal religion or philosophy or foreign language)

The "sliding scale" used by the NCAA now allows a higher core GPA to reduce the SAT component. A 2.5 core GPA will still need a 820 SAT score, a higher core GPA of 2.75  will need a 720 SAT score, a 3.0 core GPA will only require a 620 SAT score and a 3.55 core GPA will just need a 400 SAT score. The NCAA has stated that their research now indicates that core class grades were the best indicators of academic success during a student-athlete’s freshman year.

Now you get a lot of chances in life - and I wouldn't hold the JuCo thing against anybody - in fact with the cost of college these days, it's probably a good route for everyone to consider unless money is not an issue, i.e. the wealthy and those getting scholarships.

Given that the first 2 years of college is usually a bunch of general requirements anyway, I'd tell everyone to go to community college unless they're on scholarship or have rich parents--the money you save from 2 years at community college as opposed to going to some of the more prestigious institutions is outrageous, probably between 25,000-60,000 dollars and let me tell you there is little difference between Calc 1 at your local community college and Calc 1 at Harvard.

But TA was knucklehead in college (suspended for a fight amongst other issues), he's been a knucklehead in the pros (legal trouble, bone head plays, the dunk injury) - this is a pattern and their is no evidence of change.

First, he was never convicted of anything, and given where he came from the transition to college life was probably difficult.  Second, he has shown a pattern of change, his last season in Boston was perhaps his best as a pro, he finally embraced the finer points of the game, mainly the importance of film study and preparation.

Finally I think what was meant by two black is "culturally too inner city." This raises two questions:

1. Since its been stipulated that this culture is at least somewhat responsible for negative things (like the bad schools), isn't it right to criticize someone for being too tied to it?

I don't think so, but this is another issue altogether.  I'm a part of American culture and all the good and bad things that come from it, but I don't think it's fair to criticize me for something that started before I was born and will continue long after I'm dead.  It's not like many have a choice to divorce themselves from the culture they find themselves in.

2. Does this apply to white players that might "act black"? For example if someone with Eminem's background was a great PG with attitude issues - would be right as saying "he's not embraced because he's too black?"

Yeah, there was somebody like that, his name was Jason Williams.  And you can bet he lost millions of endorsement and contract dollars because of the way he acted.
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Re: **** at Tony Allen
« Reply #70 on: December 02, 2010, 07:15:38 PM »

Offline Kane3387

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Sorry. When you have NBA level talent and size like TA does, going to junior college has nothing to do with his family's financial sutation. It has everything to do with him being dumb as a post or too undisciplined to study just a little bit to be able to get into a D-1 school. Watching him over the years he was here I'd have to say a lot of both.

Of course, you can look at it this way.  And guys like Derrick Rose prove you right--his SAT score was so low that they wouldn't admit him to college.  That only changed when Memphis had somebody take the SAT for him.  So, yes, there are ways around the system, provided your talent is THAT GOOD.

That exceptional situation aside (how many players are worth potential NCAA violations to bring in?), socioeconomic situation is the #1 indicator of whether someone goes to college.  

It all starts when you're very young and it starts in the home.  For those low on the socioeconomic latter, there's probably not one college graduate in the household.  That's strike #1--no positive role models, nobody to tell you that you need to go to college.

Strike #2, if you're low on the socioeconomic latter, you probably live in a poor neighborhood, and schools in poor neighborhoods are probably underfunded and therefore provide less academic structure and guidance, meaning they turn out less college graduates per student.  Not only do you not have anyone telling you to go to college, you go to a high school that's unable to prepare you for college.

Strike #3 is that you don't have any money, and that affects every thing you do (or don't do).  Money buys time, so instead of studying at night, or reading books over the summer, you're sleeping in a cold house without electricity enough to turn a light on to read with, or you're on the streets getting into trouble, or maybe playing basketball every waking moment because that's the one good thing you have in your life.  And even if you did like books, did have money to put the lights on, you're probably living in a single-parent family who is unable to provide guidance or structure to your life.  

So, you've got no role models, you live in the projects, school sucks, you don't have any structure that makes you want to better yourself, and you think you can just go from that to college with a little elbow grease and hard work?  Some are lucky enough to do that, but for the majority their socioeconomic status dooms them to a life of little education and low earning potential.    

You're 100% right when it comes to the average kid growing up in that kind of environment.  But I think kids with D1 and NBA talent are the exception to the rule (including TA).  Even with at least below average grades and SAT scores, you're gonna get a D1 scholarship.

Very True. Very True. I doubt any of you are familiar with Oklahoma High school Football but two of the best High School Programs in the Nation move kids and their families into their districts, give their parents similar jobs, and thus have eligible talented athletes. The schools I am referring to are Tulsa Union and Tulsa Jenks. High Schools do it all the time. Look at Lebron. He went to a prep school and was very poor. He could play basketball so he had help through AAU and other avenues to go to ST Vincent St Mary. T-Mac, Amare, etc. All these great high school players go to Private Prep Schools. There really just basketball factories. So the exceptional high school athlete is different.


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Re: **** at Tony Allen
« Reply #71 on: December 02, 2010, 07:17:59 PM »

Offline Kane3387

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Sorry. When you have NBA level talent and size like TA does, going to junior college has nothing to do with his family's financial sutation. It has everything to do with him being dumb as a post or too undisciplined to study just a little bit to be able to get into a D-1 school. Watching him over the years he was here I'd have to say a lot of both.

Of course, you can look at it this way.  And guys like Derrick Rose prove you right--his SAT score was so low that they wouldn't admit him to college.  That only changed when Memphis had somebody take the SAT for him.  So, yes, there are ways around the system, provided your talent is THAT GOOD.

That exceptional situation aside (how many players are worth potential NCAA violations to bring in?), socioeconomic situation is the #1 indicator of whether someone goes to college.  

It all starts when you're very young and it starts in the home.  For those low on the socioeconomic latter, there's probably not one college graduate in the household.  That's strike #1--no positive role models, nobody to tell you that you need to go to college.

Strike #2, if you're low on the socioeconomic latter, you probably live in a poor neighborhood, and schools in poor neighborhoods are probably underfunded and therefore provide less academic structure and guidance, meaning they turn out less college graduates per student.  Not only do you not have anyone telling you to go to college, you go to a high school that's unable to prepare you for college.

Strike #3 is that you don't have any money, and that affects every thing you do (or don't do).  Money buys time, so instead of studying at night, or reading books over the summer, you're sleeping in a cold house without electricity enough to turn a light on to read with, or you're on the streets getting into trouble, or maybe playing basketball every waking moment because that's the one good thing you have in your life.  And even if you did like books, did have money to put the lights on, you're probably living in a single-parent family who is unable to provide guidance or structure to your life.  

So, you've got no role models, you live in the projects, school sucks, you don't have any structure that makes you want to better yourself, and you think you can just go from that to college with a little elbow grease and hard work?  Some are lucky enough to do that, but for the majority their socioeconomic status dooms them to a life of little education and low earning potential.    

You're 100% right when it comes to the average kid growing up in that kind of environment.  But I think kids with D1 and NBA talent are the exception to the rule (including TA).  Even with at least below average grades and SAT scores, you're gonna get a D1 scholarship.

Very True. Very True. I doubt any of you are familiar with Oklahoma High school Football but two of the best High School Programs in the Nation move kids and their families into their districts, give their parents similar jobs, and thus have eligible talented athletes. The schools I am referring to are Tulsa Union and Tulsa Jenks. High Schools do it all the time. Look at Lebron. He went to a prep school and was very poor. He could play basketball so he had help through AAU and other avenues to go to ST Vincent St Mary. T-Mac, Amare, etc. All these great high school players go to Private Prep Schools. There really just basketball factories. So the exceptional high school athlete is different.


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Re: **** at Tony Allen
« Reply #72 on: December 02, 2010, 07:33:14 PM »

Offline ImShakHeIsShaq

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Tony seems to have made a bad decision for himself if he was hoping for more playing time (though I doubt he'd be getting much more than that in Boston), but that doesn't make him a moron.  I'm guessing that smart people make mistakes too.

And I'd be cautious about assuming someone's level of intelligence from a conversation and a person's use of cultural dialect.  America is flooded with folks who don't speak 'the Queen's English' but who are nonetheless quite bright. 

Larry Bird (especially early in his career) and Mayor Menino come to mind.

True, although Tony's trip to junior college suggest that he wasn't exactly an Academic All-American in high school.  His criminal record also backs up his poor decision making.


I wonder what you would have said about Einstein?

Apples and oranges.  If you have D1 talent (which Tony obviously did), then there's usually only one way you don't get a scholarship out of high school: Academic Ineligiblity.



My point was, Einstein obviously had the mental capacity, yet he had to go to an under school to get him onto the path of the school he really wanted. Just b/c Tony underperformed does not mean he didn't have the capacity... it could have been MANY other reasons besides intellect!
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Re: **** at Tony Allen
« Reply #73 on: December 02, 2010, 08:44:33 PM »

Offline EJPLAYA

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Sorry. When you have NBA level talent and size like TA does, going to junior college has nothing to do with his family's financial sutation. It has everything to do with him being dumb as a post or too undisciplined to study just a little bit to be able to get into a D-1 school. Watching him over the years he was here I'd have to say a lot of both.

Of course, you can look at it this way.  And guys like Derrick Rose prove you right--his SAT score was so low that they wouldn't admit him to college.  That only changed when Memphis had somebody take the SAT for him.  So, yes, there are ways around the system, provided your talent is THAT GOOD.

That exceptional situation aside (how many players are worth potential NCAA violations to bring in?), socioeconomic situation is the #1 indicator of whether someone goes to college.  

It all starts when you're very young and it starts in the home.  For those low on the socioeconomic latter, there's probably not one college graduate in the household.  That's strike #1--no positive role models, nobody to tell you that you need to go to college.

Strike #2, if you're low on the socioeconomic latter, you probably live in a poor neighborhood, and schools in poor neighborhoods are probably underfunded and therefore provide less academic structure and guidance, meaning they turn out less college graduates per student.  Not only do you not have anyone telling you to go to college, you go to a high school that's unable to prepare you for college.

Strike #3 is that you don't have any money, and that affects every thing you do (or don't do).  Money buys time, so instead of studying at night, or reading books over the summer, you're sleeping in a cold house without electricity enough to turn a light on to read with, or you're on the streets getting into trouble, or maybe playing basketball every waking moment because that's the one good thing you have in your life.  And even if you did like books, did have money to put the lights on, you're probably living in a single-parent family who is unable to provide guidance or structure to your life.  

So, you've got no role models, you live in the projects, school sucks, you don't have any structure that makes you want to better yourself, and you think you can just go from that to college with a little elbow grease and hard work?  Some are lucky enough to do that, but for the majority their socioeconomic status dooms them to a life of little education and low earning potential.    

Poor picked on Tony…

347 Division 1 basketball teams. Thats 5200 D1 players. Less than 500 of them are in the NBA at one time and probably half of them come from the same higher end programs. The majority of the D1 schools never EVER see an NBA level talent and would have jumped at the ability to get a player like Tony on their squad. When you STILL don't get put on a D1 school then you are VERY stupid. That or too lazy to care. It doesn't take very good grades or very high SAT's to get into low end D1 schools. Those who do not are the dumbest of the dumb. Blame their upbringing all you want, but there are a few thousand D1 players that aren't in any different situation than he was. I feel bad for the guys in that situation who DON'T have NBA level talent to get themselves out, not the ones who do.

Re: **** at Tony Allen
« Reply #74 on: December 02, 2010, 10:38:56 PM »

Offline CoachBo

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Here's the silly little reality of this blog:

Some of you would be making excuses for Tony Allen regardless of the situation he found himself in - all over a role player with no jumpshot whatsoever who could, occasionally, play a little defense.

Tony Allen doesn't matter. To the Boston Celtics or to any other NBA team. He's not talented enough to matter.

The rhapsodizing and exaggeration of this guy's limited skill set has been one of the true sources of entertainment on this blog over the years, much like the silly defenses of the waste of space that was Patrick O'Bryant, etc.
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