**** at Tony Allen

[youcanthandlethetruth113]

Sorry people, but Tony went to Memphis for more MONEY and assumed mo money meant mo playing time.

[CDawg834]

True, although Tony's trip to junior college suggest that he wasn't exactly an Academic All-American in high school.  His criminal record also backs up his poor decision making.

Getting arrested and eventually being found NOT GUILTY does not equate to having a criminal record; that is, unless you don't believe in the presumption of innocence.

Going to junior college (or community college) has a lot more to do with one's socioeconomic condition than it does with one's intellectual abilities.  

***

But let's be honest here, and let's quit talking in code. The fact is that Tony Allen was too black to be embraced by the majority of Celtic fans, and this predisposition has led to a career-long mischaracterization of Tony's strengths and weaknesses as a basketball player. The amount of irrational hate thrown Tony's way is and always was inversely proportional to Tony's impact on the game, and it continues even after he's gone to another team. 

I am one of the TA haters who was ecstatic when he signed with another team.  I never liked him as a player, and looking back through some of my old posts over the past few years, looking at stats and watching the game, I think I a lot of people here had some very valid arguments as to why we didn't like TA as a player and wanted him gone.  Frankly, on the court, the dude drove me nuts.

Oh wait...apparently this is all just codespeak, I don't like TA because he's too black.

[SalmonAndMashedPotatoes]

But let's be honest here, and let's quit talking in code. The fact is that Tony Allen was too black to be embraced by the majority of Celtic fans, and this predisposition has led to a career-long mischaracterization of Tony's strengths and weaknesses as a basketball player. The amount of irrational hate thrown Tony's way is and always was inversely proportional to Tony's impact on the game, and it continues even after he's gone to another team. 

I think this is a baseless assertion. Citing his criminal record and poor play doesn't have anything to do with his race.

Nor did I say it did.  What I did say is that he doesn't have a criminal record, his time in junior college is a statement about his socioeconomical status, not his intelligence, and that TA was too black for the majority of Celtic fans to embrace, something that has led to an amount of irrational hate that is not proportional to his actual impact on the game.

The entire core of the Celtics team the past four years has been entirely black, and Boston has embraced them just fine. From roleplayers to the stars. Every player has his critics but to say Tony is singled out on this board because of his race is ridiculous.

I guess it's too ambitious of me to assume that people on this site can appreciate subtlety.  I didn't say TA wasn't embraced because he was black, I said he wasn't embraced because he was too black.  In the same token, a majority of Celtic fans tolerate but don't embrace KG--one of the greatest power forwards to play the game--because his on-court persona of swearing, mouth-frothed intensity and chest-beating is too black.  

Furthermore pointing out his limited offensive game, his turnover issues, and his trouble settling into a bench role (with the exception of last year) isn't irrational. Those are legitimate criticisms, you might disagree but they're not made up issues.

Did I say they weren't?  It be appreciated if you responded to what I actually wrote instead of merely responding to what you think I meant.

The irrationality of the hate was the volume and frequency of the criticism, not the substance.  We're talking about a player who got crucified for biting on one headfake from Billups in a big game in 2007, and after that point had a huge reputation as somebody who went for EVERY HEADFAKE, when in actuality guys like Ray Allen were much much worse at going for headfakes (Ray got victimized by Rudy last night, btw).  How did that perception build up?  Well, TA was 'too black', something that led to the perception that he was dumb, something that fed into the perception that he could get fooled into going for headfake.  On the other hand, well-spoken Ray Allen, even though he's probably bitten on 10 times as many head fakes in last 4 years (even in big moments like against the Bulls in the 2009 playoffs), such a reputation hasn't stuck precisely because it doesn't fit the narrative of Ray Allen as intelligent.

 
He's your binkie, I get that, but you're stretching things a lot in your attempts to defend him.

No, I'm not.  The only stretching involved in on your end, as you attempt to stretch what I wrote into what you thought I said.

[Fafnir]

But let's be honest here, and let's quit talking in code. The fact is that Tony Allen was too black to be embraced by the majority of Celtic fans, and this predisposition has led to a career-long mischaracterization of Tony's strengths and weaknesses as a basketball player. The amount of irrational hate thrown Tony's way is and always was inversely proportional to Tony's impact on the game, and it continues even after he's gone to another team.  

I think this is a baseless assertion. Citing his criminal record and poor play doesn't have anything to do with his race.

Nor did I say it did.  What I did say is that he doesn't have a criminal record, his time in junior college is a statement about his socioeconomical status, not his intelligence, and that TA was too black for the majority of Celtic fans to embrace, something that has led to an amount of irrational hate that is not proportional to his actual impact on the game.

The entire core of the Celtics team the past four years has been entirely black, and Boston has embraced them just fine. From roleplayers to the stars. Every player has his critics but to say Tony is singled out on this board because of his race is ridiculous.

I guess it's too ambitious of me to assume that people on this site can appreciate subtlety.  I didn't say TA wasn't embraced because he was black, I said he wasn't embraced because he was too black.  In the same token, a majority of Celtic fans tolerate but don't embrace KG--one of the greatest power forwards to play the game--because his on-court persona of swearing, mouth-frothed intensity and chest-beating is too black.

No I actually caught that, I'm curious to how the heck you define "blackness". You're racially coding more than anyone else in this conversation. People point out negative traits in Tony and you're conflating them with being "too black" for his critics.

How the heck is KG's chest beating and trash talk "too black"? Trash talking and cursing aren't a trait restricted to black athletes. And again you're making a lot of assumptions about how Boston fans feel about KG.

The amount of criticims he gets here isn't extraordinary or unsual. Rondo gets critized, Ray gets critized, Pierce gets critized (iso hate anyone?), Davis gets critized, etc...

Meanwhile people talked about Bill Walker/JR Giddens a ton even though they hardly ever got on the court. This is a celtics blog every player gets a very harsh lens on them. Remember all the Leon/BBD threads? Heck a new one popped up, today.

 
He's your binkie, I get that, but you're stretching things a lot in your attempts to defend him.

No, I'm not.  The only stretching involved in on your end, as you attempt to stretch what I wrote into what you thought I said.

You said people were hypercritical because he's too black and that his critics were "irritationally hateful". You're painting people who don't like his game as a basketball player with an awfully broad brush in an attempt to defend your binkie.

[SalmonAndMashedPotatoes]

True, although Tony's trip to junior college suggest that he wasn't exactly an Academic All-American in high school.  His criminal record also backs up his poor decision making.

Getting arrested and eventually being found NOT GUILTY does not equate to having a criminal record; that is, unless you don't believe in the presumption of innocence.

Going to junior college (or community college) has a lot more to do with one's socioeconomic condition than it does with one's intellectual abilities.  

***

But let's be honest here, and let's quit talking in code. The fact is that Tony Allen was too black to be embraced by the majority of Celtic fans, and this predisposition has led to a career-long mischaracterization of Tony's strengths and weaknesses as a basketball player. The amount of irrational hate thrown Tony's way is and always was inversely proportional to Tony's impact on the game, and it continues even after he's gone to another team. 

I am one of the TA haters who was ecstatic when he signed with another team.  I never liked him as a player, and looking back through some of my old posts over the past few years, looking at stats and watching the game, I think I a lot of people here had some very valid arguments as to why we didn't like TA as a player and wanted him gone.  Frankly, on the court, the dude drove me nuts.

Oh wait...apparently this is all just codespeak, I don't like TA because he's too black.

Oh please.  There are valid arguments as to why some might not like Tony's game, and I never suggested otherwise. TA's game can be criticized fairly, just like there were valid arguments as to why people might not like Eddie House's game, or Leon Powe's. 

But those players--even with their flaws--were still embraced warmly by Celtic fans, those players still got their jersey sold in the pro shop in TD Garden (unlike TA, whose jersey went out of stock in 2007), and those players were appreciated for what they were, both the good and the bad.

That never happened for TA, his bad was magnified and distorted to the point that it overshadowed his good and that's why I call it irrational hate; it was not in proportion to the impact he made on the court.  My theory as to why that irrational hate was out of proportion to his impact is because he was 'too black.'  The same thing has occurred with KG since he became a Celtic--of course KG is a much much better player so he's been tolerated and embraced much more because of his status as a great player, but at the same time it's been my perception that he's been held at an arm's length because he too is just a little too black for most Celtics fan's liking. 

[EJPLAYA]

True, although Tony's trip to junior college suggest that he wasn't exactly an Academic All-American in high school.  His criminal record also backs up his poor decision making.

Going to junior college (or community college) has a lot more to do with one's socioeconomic condition than it does with one's intellectual abilities.  

Sorry. When you have NBA level talent and size like TA does, going to junior college has nothing to do with his family's financial sutation. It has everything to do with him being dumb as a post or too undisciplined to study just a little bit to be able to get into a D-1 school. Watching him over the years he was here I'd have to say a lot of both.

[Neurotic Guy]

The irrationality of the hate was the volume and frequency of the criticism, not the substance.  We're talking about a player who got crucified for biting on one headfake from Billups in a big game in 2007, and after that point had a huge reputation as somebody who went for EVERY HEADFAKE, when in actuality guys like Ray Allen were much much worse at going for headfakes (Ray got victimized by Rudy last night, btw).  How did that perception build up?  Well, TA was 'too black', something that led to the perception that he was dumb, something that fed into the perception that he could get fooled into going for headfake.  On the other hand, well-spoken Ray Allen, even though he's probably bitten on 10 times as many head fakes in last 4 years (even in big moments like against the Bulls in the 2009 playoffs), such a reputation hasn't stuck precisely because it doesn't fit the narrative of Ray Allen as intelligent.

I may be one of the few here who is open to the notion that race, among other physical attributes, does play a role (albeit often subconscious) in our assessment of traits like intelligence, character, morality....   But what you point out is that race is not the ONLY variable that influences our perceptions.  What I think some folks miss as result of a knee-jerk defensive response to the suggestion that race might play a role in how we perceive people, is that there is a different burden of proof at play with regard to race.  In other words, Ray Allen CAN prove himself to be articulate and hard-working just as Mayor Menino can prove himself to be inarticulate or JD Dew can prove himself to be soft.  Once the evidence is at hand, it's very difficult for folks to be able to acknowledge that back at baseline -- when all we had to go on is race -- we began immediately to draw conclusions or make presumptions (again, often subconsciously) that might reflect racial bias. 

TA didn't disprove stereotypes and therefore folks can feel he has proven himself (regardless of race) to be a lazy, dumb guy.  In reality, I am guessing you are correct that race influences how swiftly we make that judgment and how intensively we cling to it and focus on it once made.  But --- it's pretty hard to prove such bias.

[Fafnir]

Oh please.  There are valid arguments as to why some might not like Tony's game, and I never suggested otherwise.

Yes you did:

But let's be honest here, and let's quit talking in code. The fact is that Tony Allen was too black to be embraced by the majority of Celtic fans, and this predisposition has led to a career-long mischaracterization of Tony's strengths and weaknesses as a basketball player. The amount of irrational hate thrown Tony's way is and always was inversely proportional to Tony's impact on the game, and it continues even after he's gone to another team. 

The bold and the italics are mine. If there are "valid arguments" why is it racial that Tony isn't beloved? Why can't Celtics fans just disagree with your take based on those valid arguments?

[Brendan]

True, although Tony's trip to junior college suggest that he wasn't exactly an Academic All-American in high school.  His criminal record also backs up his poor decision making.

Getting arrested and eventually being found NOT GUILTY does not equate to having a criminal record; that is, unless you don't believe in the presumption of innocence.

Going to junior college (or community college) has a lot more to do with one's socioeconomic condition than it does with one's intellectual abilities.  

***

But let's be honest here, and let's quit talking in code. The fact is that Tony Allen was too black to be embraced by the majority of Celtic fans, and this predisposition has led to a career-long mischaracterization of Tony's strengths and weaknesses as a basketball player. The amount of irrational hate thrown Tony's way is and always was inversely proportional to Tony's impact on the game, and it continues even after he's gone to another team. 

Memphis is a team struggling to create an identity.  They don't have a rotation.  Players like TA are bound to get jerked around in a situation like that--on a young team searching for chemistry, it's going to be a process of mixing and matching and the players who are already established are going to be set aside to a degree until the more volatile and evolving parts of the team have had a chance to settle into stable roles on the team.  If and when Memphis settles on a style, identity, and a rotation, TA will be right there doing for them what he did for us--providing a defensive spark off the bench.  He's one of the top perimeter defenders in the entire league and that has not changed one bit.

Danny Ainge badly miscalculated this offseason, and only good luck in the form of Shaq and Delonte West prevented him from completely mismanaging the summer of 2010.  He figured TA wanted to come back, and so put him on the backburner as he attended to other matters.  Chris Wallace, in the meantime, swooped in and made Tony feel wanted, and then presented him with a reasonable contract offer that gave Tony the kind of financial security he was looking for going into a possible lockout season in 2011-2012.  And so while Danny was busy getting a complete loser like Jermaine ONeal to sign on the dotted line, he let Chris Wallace poach Tony Allen right from under his nose. 

If not for Shaq having no suitors willing to pay the full MLE, and if not for Delonte having a damaged reputation and buyout clause in this contract, this offseason would have been a disaster.  As it turned out, we got lucky--we signed two MLE-level players for minimum deals, and then resigned Daniels with early Bird rights because no one else was available.  Don't let that luck change the fact that letting TA go for nothing was a mistake.

In HS there was a rule - if you got caught drinking you missed two weeks or two games, whichever took longer. Here's the thing: my coach had a rule - if you are at a party where this is going on, then you got treated the same. He had a saying along the lines of "if you are not in those situations, you cannot get in trouble." TA put himself in a situation to get in trouble, that he got off doesn't prove he's not a fool. And yes - the reason incredibly talented ball players go to JuCo (usually) is they don't have the grades/SAT scores to get a college scholarship.

And no - this isn't code for racism (btw how can you be too Black? Is isn't it a binary thing? Unless you mean something like "culturally black", which I'll ask you to define before I comment further.)

As for the DA got lucky - I find that hard to agree with, he had Allen and Pierce to deal with first. Then he had to get some depth:

He got a stop gap in JO - expensive yes, but only a two year deal. He got Shaq for Peanuts. He retained Daniels and Nate, and brought in Von Wafer and AB which would have been a solid set of bench and reserves wings and guards. Then he capitalized when Shaq and West became available. West barely played at all - so its not like he's made a big difference.

[SalmonAndMashedPotatoes]

No I actually caught that, I'm curious to how the heck you define "blackness". You're racially coding more than anyone else in this conversation. People point out negative traits in Tony and you're conflating them with being "too black" for his critics.

I'm not using racial code language--I just pointed it out in this thread.  The act of point something out is not itself the act of doing what you're pointing out. 

Like I said before, it's fine to bring up legitimate criticism about TA's game, and I never said it wasn't.  But it went further than that with TA, people not only pointed out his flaws, but they divined the reason why too, leading to claims of 'dumbness', and I'd say 90% of that was because he was too black and people were conflating cultural differences for a lack of intelligence.  Like I showed with the Ray Allen analogy, it's about perception.  When TA bites on an upfake, it's because he's dumb.  Why is he dumb?  He talks funny.  But when Ray Allen does it, it's not because he's dumb it's because he simply made a mistake. Why?  Because Ray Allen isn't dumb, just listen to him talk!

To point out how race affects perception isn't racial coding, it's the unveiling of how language is used to tiptoe around sensitive subjects.  I also don't appreciate how you refuse to respond to the substance of my point of view, and instead attack the messenger as if what I'm saying hasn't been a part of American culture for nearly 200 years. 

How the heck is KG's chest beating and trash talk "too black"? Trash talking and cursing aren't a trait restricted to black athletes. And again you're making a lot of assumptions about how Boston fans feel about KG.

You're the one making assumptions.  Making assumptions instead of having the face the substance of my point of view. 

Again, we're talking about perception.  Any one of any race can beat their chest or trash talk, yet even if the same words are said they're are going to be perceived differently depending on race.  Larry Bird was a merciless trash talker, and he was revered by the masses of Celtic fans for his killer instinct and willingness to do whatever it takes.  KG is a merciless trash talker as well, and when he does it too loudly we have 10 page threads arguing whether he should apologize.  If you don't think the race of the two players involved has something to do with how their similar actions are perceived differently, then you are living in a world of make believe.

[CDawg834]

True, although Tony's trip to junior college suggest that he wasn't exactly an Academic All-American in high school.  His criminal record also backs up his poor decision making.

Getting arrested and eventually being found NOT GUILTY does not equate to having a criminal record; that is, unless you don't believe in the presumption of innocence.

Going to junior college (or community college) has a lot more to do with one's socioeconomic condition than it does with one's intellectual abilities.  

***

But let's be honest here, and let's quit talking in code. The fact is that Tony Allen was too black to be embraced by the majority of Celtic fans, and this predisposition has led to a career-long mischaracterization of Tony's strengths and weaknesses as a basketball player. The amount of irrational hate thrown Tony's way is and always was inversely proportional to Tony's impact on the game, and it continues even after he's gone to another team. 

I am one of the TA haters who was ecstatic when he signed with another team.  I never liked him as a player, and looking back through some of my old posts over the past few years, looking at stats and watching the game, I think I a lot of people here had some very valid arguments as to why we didn't like TA as a player and wanted him gone.  Frankly, on the court, the dude drove me nuts.

Oh wait...apparently this is all just codespeak, I don't like TA because he's too black.

Oh please.  There are valid arguments as to why some might not like Tony's game, and I never suggested otherwise. TA's game can be criticized fairly, just like there were valid arguments as to why people might not like Eddie House's game, or Leon Powe's. 

But those players--even with their flaws--were still embraced warmly by Celtic fans, those players still got their jersey sold in the pro shop in TD Garden (unlike TA, whose jersey went out of stock in 2007), and those players were appreciated for what they were, both the good and the bad.

That never happened for TA, his bad was magnified and distorted to the point that it overshadowed his good and that's why I call it irrational hate; it was not in proportion to the impact he made on the court.  My theory as to why that irrational hate was out of proportion to his impact is because he was 'too black.'  The same thing has occurred with KG since he became a Celtic--of course KG is a much much better player so he's been tolerated and embraced much more because of his status as a great player, but at the same time it's been my perception that he's been held at an arm's length because he too is just a little too black for most Celtics fan's liking. 

Sorry but I don't agree with you on this.  Maybe KGs personality may keep people at arm's length, but I think a lot of that is his intensity and agression that is over the top at times, as opposed to his skin color.  Sometimes his demeanor rubs people the wrong way, and he comes off as standoffish, and that's a personality thing, not a skin color thing.

As for the TA debate, the reason is was more magnified than House or Powe is because the pro-TA crowd and the anti-TA crowd were so far apart that the debate blew up.  With Eddie and Powe, everyone was pretty much in agreement on their ceilings and floors as players.  Some may have liked or disliked one more than the other, but nothing too extreme.  But with TA, there were people who felt that he was essential to the C's success, and others who thought he was the worst player on the team.  When you have thinking that far apart, there's gonna be a lot more debate.  Again, not a race thing, just waaaay different perceptions of a player's talent.

[BballTim]

If it was all about the money then i think he can live with it...something i have felt all alone.

True.  Putting an extra guaranteed FIVE MILLION DOLLARS or so in one's pocket cannot reasonably be called a mistake.

It's always interesting to me how casually fans can leave millions of dollars on the table when it's somebody else's money.  I think a lot of us would see things a little differently if it was our name on those checks. 

I don't blame TA for leaving for the extra money, but I wouldn't be surprised if he's regretting it by now.

I'm sure Memphis is regretting it, too.  Good to see Tony hasn't cut down on the turnovers AT ALL.  Boston could afford to play 4 on 5 on offense when he was in the game...Memphis can't.  As a result, DNP-CDs for TA.

  I'd like to point out that, while Tony's playing a little less than last year, out of Memphis's 19 games he has 13 games of 10+ minutes and 3 DNPs. Again, not the minutes he wants, but people are acting like he's buried on the end of the bench.

He's their 5th guard, he plays more than Acie Law which is something....

  I didn't say or imply that he's playing more than that, just that he's not racking up dnp after dnp which some people seem to be implying.

[ImShakHeIsShaq]

Tony seems to have made a bad decision for himself if he was hoping for more playing time (though I doubt he'd be getting much more than that in Boston), but that doesn't make him a moron.  I'm guessing that smart people make mistakes too.

And I'd be cautious about assuming someone's level of intelligence from a conversation and a person's use of cultural dialect.  America is flooded with folks who don't speak 'the Queen's English' but who are nonetheless quite bright. 

Larry Bird (especially early in his career) and Mayor Menino come to mind.

True, although Tony's trip to junior college suggest that he wasn't exactly an Academic All-American in high school.  His criminal record also backs up his poor decision making.

I wonder what you would have said about Einstein?

[Fafnir]

Salmon you declared that "The majority of Celtics fans don't embrace Tony Allen because he's too black".

That's not pointing out that race effects perception, you're stating causation. You've also attacked the rationality of his critics and the amount of scrutiny he's recieved.

What substance is there to your view? Basically the majority of Celtics fans (including me since I think he's a limited player) are too racially biased to appreciate Tony Allen's game like you have?

I'm not attacking the messanger I'm saying your message is a bad one. You're shifting the goalpost on us here. Race has a huge effect on perception in all human beings. I'm not disputing that, nor do I disupte that racial coding happens a lot in society (look at southern politics). But that's not what you said.

Instead you're saying that the explanation for the majority of Celtics fan's views of Tony as a player is racial. Furthermore I think you're ignoring the important point that every player on the Celtics recieves a ton of scrutiny, Tony isn't unique in that regard.

[Brendan]

That never happened for TA, his bad was magnified and distorted to the point that it overshadowed his good and that's why I call it irrational hate; it was not in proportion to the impact he made on the court.  My theory as to why that irrational hate was out of proportion to his impact is because he was 'too black.'  The same thing has occurred with KG since he became a Celtic--of course KG is a much much better player so he's been tolerated and embraced much more because of his status as a great player, but at the same time it's been my perception that he's been held at an arm's length because he too is just a little too black for most Celtics fan's liking. 

Please define the spectrum of "black" you are using, something like a scale of 1 - 10. Because I honestly don't know what you mean. (See the bolded part above.)

And your point about KG is idiotic - he's primarily defended by Celtics fans (here and in general.) It's people from other towns that hate him - and other (black) players that hate him.

Feel free to provide support for your assertions - but you might as well have said "everyone in Boston hates it when players are too white, that's why Brian Scalabrini is hated, just like Bill Walton was." Instead of Black / Tony Allen / KG - there is as much support both ways.