Baby is Getting Better and Better!

[Fafnir]

I hope you're right, but over the course of their careers Baby is not a better finisher than Perkins.

Whether the numbers bear it out or not, I dispute this.  While Perkins may not have as many shots blocked, and may shoot a higher percentage, but Davis converts plays Perkins could never even consider, and is much better at drawing contact and finishing.

You're right that Davis is more skillful in getting contested shots in by my eyes. But the numbers don't lie and the numbers from hoopdata are pretty clear.

Davis percentages at the rim:
09-10 51.8%
09-08 59%
08-07 54%

Perkins percentages at the rim:
09-10 74%
09-08 68%
08-07 68%
07-06 61%

[Evantime34]

Faf I know his shooting percentages are going to come down but I still think in the first half of the year Baby's % will be extremely high.

I would make the argument that in taking Perk's minutes with the starters he is going to get a lot of the shots that lead to Perk shooting 60%+ from the field. Especially because I consider Baby to be a better finisher than Perk.

I hope you're right, but over the course of their careers Baby is not a better finisher than Perkins.

Baby has finished his close in shots at about 10% less clip than Perkins and also doesn't get many dunks because he doesn't have the height/lift to do so.

I think you're right he'll shoot better from the field than before due to increased opportunity, but he won't be shooting like Perkins (even if you throw out his jumpers)

He'll end up more efficient than Perkins as long as he avoids turning it over so much in when he does have a scoring chance and improves like you and I hope.

To this point in the season to me Baby looks like he has more lift than last year, which I think will make him a better finisher than Perk this year. I think his reverse yesterday was a good example of that. I feel like his finishing started to improve in the playoffs and has continued to do so.

Faf, what are Davis' percentages at the rim for last years playoffs?

[Chris]

I hope you're right, but over the course of their careers Baby is not a better finisher than Perkins.

Whether the numbers bear it out or not, I dispute this.  While Perkins may not have as many shots blocked, and may shoot a higher percentage, but Davis converts plays Perkins could never even consider, and is much better at drawing contact and finishing.

You're right that Davis is more skillful in getting contested shots in by my eyes. But the numbers don't lie and the numbers from hoopdata are pretty clear.

Davis percentages at the rim:
09-10 51.8%
09-08 59%
08-07 54%

Perkins percentages at the rim:
09-10 74%
09-08 68%
08-07 68%
07-06 61%

I would argue that they do lie.  Because they don't take into account the shots that never went up, because Perk fumbled the ball away, or brought it down, and then never had the chance to bring it back up.

So yes, Perk is better at finishing the shots he gets up.  But it doesn't mean he is a better finisher at the rim in general.

[Fafnir]

I'm trying to figure out what it is you are saying BBD is doing wrong. Something about not passing the ball enough?

If you'd read my posts you'd see that my main concern is his lack of rebounding. In particular he hasn't gotten the same number of offensive rebounds. Since he is a poor defensive rebounding PF he nees to make up the difference on the offensive glass.

His defensive awareness is unmatched

He's got the rotations down, but "unmatched" is hyperbole. Several Celtics have the same or better defensive awareness as Glen.

He's played well this season, but that's largely because he's been extremely efficient offensively. If we're going to play him 30 minutes a game he has to get more than 5 rebounds.

[wdleehi]

He is playing a good game as a reserve big man.



You can make the case now if everyone is healthy (Perk), he is the 4th most important big on this team.  (unless JO finds his offensive and defensive game, then this debate will reopen)

[mmbaby]

Watch the games carefully and see if he could have gotten more rebounds. Last night KG was the rebound man.

[Fafnir]

I hope you're right, but over the course of their careers Baby is not a better finisher than Perkins.

Whether the numbers bear it out or not, I dispute this.  While Perkins may not have as many shots blocked, and may shoot a higher percentage, but Davis converts plays Perkins could never even consider, and is much better at drawing contact and finishing.

You're right that Davis is more skillful in getting contested shots in by my eyes. But the numbers don't lie and the numbers from hoopdata are pretty clear.

Davis percentages at the rim:
09-10 51.8%
09-08 59%
08-07 54%

Perkins percentages at the rim:
09-10 74%
09-08 68%
08-07 68%
07-06 61%

I would argue that they do lie.  Because they don't take into account the shots that never went up, because Perk fumbled the ball away, or brought it down, and then never had the chance to bring it back up.

So yes, Perk is better at finishing the shots he gets up.  But it doesn't mean he is a better finisher at the rim in general.

They both are assisted around the same amount of the time, Perkins is assisted more. Perkins does turn the ball over more, but Glen also gets blocked more frequently.

I'm not sure how to quantify fumbling the ball and not getting shots up, but when you subtract jump shots Perkins attempts more shots at the rim per minute than Davis does.

[Evantime34]

I'm trying to figure out what it is you are saying BBD is doing wrong. Something about not passing the ball enough?

If you'd read my posts you'd see that my main concern is his lack of rebounding. In particular he hasn't gotten the same number of offensive rebounds. Since he is a poor defensive rebounding PF he nees to make up the difference on the offensive glass.

His defensive awareness is unmatched

He's got the rotations down, but "unmatched" is hyperbole. Several Celtics have the same or better defensive awareness as Glen.

He's played well this season, but that's largely because he's been extremely efficient offensively. If we're going to play him 30 minutes a game he has to get more than 5 rebounds.

From watching the games without looking at the numbers do you feel that Baby isn't attacking the offensive glass as hard? I feel like he is but hasn't had as much success (do in part to him playing with Garnett and thus being the only person in the paint when a shot goes up).

I think you are right that his shooting % will go down from 72% but I think he has a career year in that department. I believe that he will show the same offensive rebounding promise that he did last year.

As far as not being a good defensive rebounder he clearly isn't. However, I believe that the way in which he boxes out is conducive to other people on his team grabbing boards. Not sure if there is a stat out there that could confirm or deny this.

[Fafnir]

Watch the games carefully and see if he could have gotten more rebounds. Last night KG was the rebound man.

KG gobbled up all the defensive rebounds, Davis is getting around the same amount of those as last year.

The problem is he's no longer getting the same amount of offensive boards.

This is all a very small sample size, but the last time Davis was playing 30 minutes a game he put up similar poor rebounding numbers. So I worry if by extending his minutes and role he stops attacking the ball as hard.

[Chris]

I hope you're right, but over the course of their careers Baby is not a better finisher than Perkins.

Whether the numbers bear it out or not, I dispute this.  While Perkins may not have as many shots blocked, and may shoot a higher percentage, but Davis converts plays Perkins could never even consider, and is much better at drawing contact and finishing.

You're right that Davis is more skillful in getting contested shots in by my eyes. But the numbers don't lie and the numbers from hoopdata are pretty clear.

Davis percentages at the rim:
09-10 51.8%
09-08 59%
08-07 54%

Perkins percentages at the rim:
09-10 74%
09-08 68%
08-07 68%
07-06 61%

I would argue that they do lie.  Because they don't take into account the shots that never went up, because Perk fumbled the ball away, or brought it down, and then never had the chance to bring it back up.

So yes, Perk is better at finishing the shots he gets up.  But it doesn't mean he is a better finisher at the rim in general.

They both are assisted around the same amount of the time, Perkins is assisted more. Perkins does turn the ball over more, but Glen also gets blocked more frequently.

I'm not sure how to quantify fumbling the ball and not getting shots up, but when you subtract jump shots Perkins attempts more shots at the rim per minute than Davis does.

I'm biased, because I hate stats in general.  I just think it is pretty clear by watching them play that Davis is more likely to finish at the rim than Perkins is.  Maybe there are more advanced stats that can prove me wrong...but until I see them, I will stick with what my eyes see.

[Fafnir]

As far as not being a good defensive rebounder he clearly isn't. However, I believe that the way in which he boxes out is conducive to other people on his team grabbing boards. Not sure if there is a stat out there that could confirm or deny this.

There is from baskteball value, though its subject to noise based on who he's playing with.

09-10 the team was 4% worse at defensive rebounding rate with him on the floor

08-09 and 07-08 1% worse at defensive rebounding rate

So the number say overall Davis hurts our defensive rebounding as a team, by a signifigant margin.

[Fafnir]

I'm biased, because I hate stats in general.  I just think it is pretty clear by watching them play that Davis is more likely to finish at the rim than Perkins is.  Maybe there are more advanced stats that can prove me wrong...but until I see them, I will stick with what my eyes see.

Honestly I don't see how that's all that possible, every data point says that Perkins makes a great percentage of his shots.

I think as far as post ups go because Perkins turns it over about 25% of the time in the post you might be right. But when it comes to making shots on the rim Perkins is better.

Baby is more skilled, but being 6'9" with long arms is more important than skill when it comes to putting the ball in the hoop.

[Chris]

I'm biased, because I hate stats in general.  I just think it is pretty clear by watching them play that Davis is more likely to finish at the rim than Perkins is.  Maybe there are more advanced stats that can prove me wrong...but until I see them, I will stick with what my eyes see.

Honestly I don't see how that's all that possible, every data point says that Perkins makes a great percentage of his shots.

I think as far as post ups go because Perkins turns it over about 25% of the time in the post you might be right. But when it comes to making shots on the rim Perkins is better.

Baby is more skilled, but being 6'9" with long arms is more important than skill when it comes to putting the ball in the hoop.

Yes, he makes most of his shots.  But until I see a stat that takes into account getting the ball in a position to shoot and whether it is converted or not, I do not think these stats are relevant.

[Fafnir]

I'm biased, because I hate stats in general.  I just think it is pretty clear by watching them play that Davis is more likely to finish at the rim than Perkins is.  Maybe there are more advanced stats that can prove me wrong...but until I see them, I will stick with what my eyes see.

Honestly I don't see how that's all that possible, every data point says that Perkins makes a great percentage of his shots.

I think as far as post ups go because Perkins turns it over about 25% of the time in the post you might be right. But when it comes to making shots on the rim Perkins is better.

Baby is more skilled, but being 6'9" with long arms is more important than skill when it comes to putting the ball in the hoop.

Yes, he makes most of his shots.  But until I see a stat that takes into account getting the ball in a position to shoot and whether it is converted or not, I do not think these stats are relevant.

Its not like BBD doesn't fumble passes or turn the ball over.

I think you're essentially asking for the impossible because the data doesn't support your own beliefs. Maybe someone with synergy sports can help you out. (*cough*Jeff/jdapa*cough*/)

They might have the right settings to break it down enough for you.

[mmbaby]

I just tried to post and was denied access and then it was completely missing from my 'forum topics'.