Author Topic: Offense this year.  (Read 5485 times)

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Offense this year.
« on: October 11, 2010, 12:17:11 PM »

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I saw in the 'least favorite player' thread that there was some decrying of early in the shot clock shots by Mr. Nate Robinson. But it got me wondering, How bad of a thing would a few quicker shots be?

Some things to consider when looking back at last season's offensive numbers:

1. Boston was 23rd out of 30 for pace. Is this important? I don't know. Perhaps playing at a slower pace helps set up the defense, which of course is the team's calling card. Certainly it's easier to set up defense after a made basket, so if slow pace leads to high percentage baskets, then yes, slow pace helps. However, the worst thing for setting up defense is turnovers, a point i'll get to next:

2. Boston was 27th out of 30 for taking care of the ball. Bad. Only Minny, Clips, and Charlotte were worse. Boston turned it over 14.9 times per game (which was 21st out of 30), but because of the slow pace, this was actually 25.3% of their possessions, which was terrible.

3. On the flipside, Boston was 4th out of 30 for overall fieldgoal percentage, which is excellent. It was this point that allowed Boston to finish with 13th/30 offensive efficiency; not elite, but not bad either.


So my question is this: Earlier shots are much much less likely to end with a turnover, but are probably less likely to be better shots. So what is the acceptable tradeoff?

In dealing with absolute numbers, let's say that 2 times per game a player launched a quick shot. there was a 25% chance each of those possessions would otherwise end in a turnover. Therefore, there was a 75% chance that said possession would end with a shot; therefore only a 56.25 percent chance that both of those possessions would end with a shot, a 6.25% chance that both would end in a turnover, and a 37.5% chance that one of those quick shots would have otherwise been a turnover. Over the long haul, essentially if the C's guaranteed themselves 2 shots by shooting quickly, they'd lose about .5 turnovers per game or, by definition, gain .5 possessions (shots) per game. Now, quick shots like the ones we are talking about are unlikely to be foul shots. The C's shot 4865 two pointers last year and 1433 threes. So of this .5 new possessions, assuming a similar ratio of shots, this would lead to .522 more points per game for the C's if the shooting percentages remained the same. In fact, with .5 more possessions per game, the overall fg% for the C's would have to drop to about, say, .518 instead of .522 on twos and from .348 to .345 on threes. But better than those percentages, it would absolutely help the C's to guarantee avoiding turnovers this year to help the offense.

Something to think about.

Re: Offense this year.
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2010, 12:52:10 PM »

Online Roy H.

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The better thing to do, rather than to take quick, bad shots, would be to limit the turnovers.

It's definitely an interesting thread, and you put a lot of thought into it, so kudos for that.  I just think it may be overthinking things, and it seems to assume that turnovers are almost inevitable.  They don't need to be; as you suggest, turning the ball over on 1/4 of possessions is horrific.

Some of the turnovers will probably decrease with having more skilled offensive players, and by having Nate playing with the team through a full training camp.  A lot of it, though, is just a matter of focus; too often, the team played lazy, and I'm hopeful that this is a thing of the past.

Philosophically, there's probably not anything wrong with the occasional quick shot, but it comes down to circumstances.  An ill-advised shot can kill a team's momentum, or give some to the opponent. 


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Re: Offense this year.
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2010, 01:14:12 PM »

Offline BballTim

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2. Boston was 27th out of 30 for taking care of the ball. Bad. Only Minny, Clips, and Charlotte were worse. Boston turned it over 14.9 times per game (which was 21st out of 30), but because of the slow pace, this was actually 25.3% of their possessions, which was terrible.


  This can't be right.

Re: Offense this year.
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2010, 01:29:49 PM »

Offline GreenEnvy

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2. Boston was 27th out of 30 for taking care of the ball. Bad. Only Minny, Clips, and Charlotte were worse. Boston turned it over 14.9 times per game (which was 21st out of 30), but because of the slow pace, this was actually 25.3% of their possessions, which was terrible.


  This can't be right.

That percentage may be incorrect (I thought I saw it was somewhere in the 15-20% range, I forget) but the fact still remains we were near the bottom of the League. Rondo was the biggest culprit.
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Re: Offense this year.
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2010, 01:46:52 PM »

Offline BballTim

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2. Boston was 27th out of 30 for taking care of the ball. Bad. Only Minny, Clips, and Charlotte were worse. Boston turned it over 14.9 times per game (which was 21st out of 30), but because of the slow pace, this was actually 25.3% of their possessions, which was terrible.


  This can't be right.

That percentage may be incorrect (I thought I saw it was somewhere in the 15-20% range, I forget) but the fact still remains we were near the bottom of the League. Rondo was the biggest culprit.

  No, he wasn't. He's among the league leaders in assist/turnover ratio.

Re: Offense this year.
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2010, 01:54:47 PM »

Offline MBunge

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Rondo had a 3 to 1 assist to turnover ration last season, so I don't think he's the problem.

To me, the C's turnover problems stem from 3 things.

1.  A tendency to overpass the ball, especially in the lane.
2.  The fact that Ray and and especially Pierce aren't as good of ball handlers as they think.  Pierce is particularly bad at thinking he can dribble through traffic when he really can't.
3.  By not running and not hitting the offensive boards harder, Boston misses out on scoring opportunities.  It's not so much that Boston turns the ball over, it's that they get fewer shots at the basket than other teams overall and that emphasizes every turnover that happens.

As for shooting the ball earlier in the shot clock, I think we need to see players like Nate and Delonte and Quis do that more if they get open looks.  It does give the other team a chance to rebound the miss and get into transition, but I don't think this team can just grind away offensively with Pierce, Ray and KG anymore.

Mike

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Re: Offense this year.
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2010, 01:57:23 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Rondo had a 3 to 1 assist to turnover ration last season, so I don't think he's the problem.

To me, the C's turnover problems stem from 3 things.

1.  A tendency to overpass the ball, especially in the lane.
2.  The fact that Ray and and especially Pierce aren't as good of ball handlers as they think.  Pierce is particularly bad at thinking he can dribble through traffic when he really can't.
3.  By not running and not hitting the offensive boards harder, Boston misses out on scoring opportunities.  It's not so much that Boston turns the ball over, it's that they get fewer shots at the basket than other teams overall and that emphasizes every turnover that happens.

As for shooting the ball earlier in the shot clock, I think we need to see players like Nate and Delonte and Quis do that more if they get open looks.  It does give the other team a chance to rebound the miss and get into transition, but I don't think this team can just grind away offensively with Pierce, Ray and KG anymore.

Mike

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  Not necessarily disagreeing with this, but I'd like to point out that this could be the first post ever on this blog to explain our excessive turnovers without using the names "Perk" or "Tony Allen".

Re: Offense this year.
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2010, 01:59:55 PM »

Offline GreenEnvy

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2. Boston was 27th out of 30 for taking care of the ball. Bad. Only Minny, Clips, and Charlotte were worse. Boston turned it over 14.9 times per game (which was 21st out of 30), but because of the slow pace, this was actually 25.3% of their possessions, which was terrible.


  This can't be right.

That percentage may be incorrect (I thought I saw it was somewhere in the 15-20% range, I forget) but the fact still remains we were near the bottom of the League. Rondo was the biggest culprit.

  No, he wasn't. He's among the league leaders in assist/turnover ratio.

That's why I was surprised when I read an article about it (I got the link on CB I believe).

Apparently, he is pretty terrible at the pick-and-roll, like really, really bad. It actually isn't that surprising though considering what a poor shooter he is. He often finds himself penetrating with nowhere to go and everyone covered/doubled.

If I find the link I will post it.

EDIT: Found it

When reviewing Boston’s HoopData.com page, I noticed a really interesting stat.  The Boston Celtics were actually the 4th worst team in the NBA when it came to turnover rate.  The Celtics turned it over 14.46% of their possessions.  While some of their turnovers came in the post (12.6% of their post ups ended in turnovers), a big chunk of their turnovers came during the pick and roll (16.4% of their PNR Ball Handler possessions).  The biggest problem with the Celtics’ pick and roll is Rajon Rondo.  The fact that Rondo isn’t even close to being a shooting threat yet means that teams were able to go under PNRs that he was involved in.

http://nbaplaybook.com/2010/10/06/2010-2011-season-preview-boston-celtics/
« Last Edit: October 11, 2010, 02:08:51 PM by GreenEnvy »
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Re: Offense this year.
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2010, 02:08:36 PM »

Offline BballTim

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2. Boston was 27th out of 30 for taking care of the ball. Bad. Only Minny, Clips, and Charlotte were worse. Boston turned it over 14.9 times per game (which was 21st out of 30), but because of the slow pace, this was actually 25.3% of their possessions, which was terrible.


  This can't be right.

That percentage may be incorrect (I thought I saw it was somewhere in the 15-20% range, I forget) but the fact still remains we were near the bottom of the League. Rondo was the biggest culprit.

  No, he wasn't. He's among the league leaders in assist/turnover ratio.

That's why I was surprised when I read an article about it (I got the link on CB I believe).

Apparently, he is pretty terrible at the pick-and-roll, like really, really bad. It actually isn't that surprising though considering what a poor shooter he is. He often finds himself penetrating with nowhere to go and everyone covered/doubled.

If I find the link I will post it.

  First of all, I doubt that he's "really, really bad" at the pick and roll. Secondly, even if he is, he must be "really, really great" almost all the time he's not in a pick and roll because even with this possible weakness he still doesn't turn the ball over a ton in general.

Re: Offense this year.
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2010, 02:16:08 PM »

Online Roy H.

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2. Boston was 27th out of 30 for taking care of the ball. Bad. Only Minny, Clips, and Charlotte were worse. Boston turned it over 14.9 times per game (which was 21st out of 30), but because of the slow pace, this was actually 25.3% of their possessions, which was terrible.


  This can't be right.

That percentage may be incorrect (I thought I saw it was somewhere in the 15-20% range, I forget) but the fact still remains we were near the bottom of the League. Rondo was the biggest culprit.

  No, he wasn't. He's among the league leaders in assist/turnover ratio.

That's why I was surprised when I read an article about it (I got the link on CB I believe).

Apparently, he is pretty terrible at the pick-and-roll, like really, really bad. It actually isn't that surprising though considering what a poor shooter he is. He often finds himself penetrating with nowhere to go and everyone covered/doubled.

If I find the link I will post it.

EDIT: Found it

When reviewing Boston’s HoopData.com page, I noticed a really interesting stat.  The Boston Celtics were actually the 4th worst team in the NBA when it came to turnover rate.  The Celtics turned it over 14.46% of their possessions.  While some of their turnovers came in the post (12.6% of their post ups ended in turnovers), a big chunk of their turnovers came during the pick and roll (16.4% of their PNR Ball Handler possessions).  The biggest problem with the Celtics’ pick and roll is Rajon Rondo.  The fact that Rondo isn’t even close to being a shooting threat yet means that teams were able to go under PNRs that he was involved in.

http://nbaplaybook.com/2010/10/06/2010-2011-season-preview-boston-celtics/

I don't have access to Synergy, so I'm curious as to what the stat is telling us.  Does the 16.4% number include all PNR possessions, or just the ones that Rondo is the ball-handler in?  And does the 16.4% include offensive fouls, etc., such as illegal picks?

Based upon the one paragraph quoted, I'm just a little skeptical about the conclusions being drawn.  There's a difference between "Boston turns the ball over 16.4% of the time in the P&R" and "Rajon Rondo turns the ball over 16.4% of the time in the P&R".


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Re: Offense this year.
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2010, 02:24:10 PM »

Offline GreenEnvy

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2. Boston was 27th out of 30 for taking care of the ball. Bad. Only Minny, Clips, and Charlotte were worse. Boston turned it over 14.9 times per game (which was 21st out of 30), but because of the slow pace, this was actually 25.3% of their possessions, which was terrible.


  This can't be right.

That percentage may be incorrect (I thought I saw it was somewhere in the 15-20% range, I forget) but the fact still remains we were near the bottom of the League. Rondo was the biggest culprit.

  No, he wasn't. He's among the league leaders in assist/turnover ratio.

That's why I was surprised when I read an article about it (I got the link on CB I believe).

Apparently, he is pretty terrible at the pick-and-roll, like really, really bad. It actually isn't that surprising though considering what a poor shooter he is. He often finds himself penetrating with nowhere to go and everyone covered/doubled.

If I find the link I will post it.

EDIT: Found it

When reviewing Boston’s HoopData.com page, I noticed a really interesting stat.  The Boston Celtics were actually the 4th worst team in the NBA when it came to turnover rate.  The Celtics turned it over 14.46% of their possessions.  While some of their turnovers came in the post (12.6% of their post ups ended in turnovers), a big chunk of their turnovers came during the pick and roll (16.4% of their PNR Ball Handler possessions).  The biggest problem with the Celtics’ pick and roll is Rajon Rondo.  The fact that Rondo isn’t even close to being a shooting threat yet means that teams were able to go under PNRs that he was involved in.

http://nbaplaybook.com/2010/10/06/2010-2011-season-preview-boston-celtics/

I don't have access to Synergy, so I'm curious as to what the stat is telling us.  Does the 16.4% number include all PNR possessions, or just the ones that Rondo is the ball-handler in?  And does the 16.4% include offensive fouls, etc., such as illegal picks?

Based upon the one paragraph quoted, I'm just a little skeptical about the conclusions being drawn.  There's a difference between "Boston turns the ball over 16.4% of the time in the P&R" and "Rajon Rondo turns the ball over 16.4% of the time in the P&R".

The 16.4% is for all pick-and-roll's. I would assume it includes any turnover, be it an offensive foul, travel, or errant pass. They show some video examples of how teams break down Rondo off the PNR. There is no percentage for him alone.
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Re: Offense this year.
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2010, 02:42:08 PM »

Offline Fan from VT

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2. Boston was 27th out of 30 for taking care of the ball. Bad. Only Minny, Clips, and Charlotte were worse. Boston turned it over 14.9 times per game (which was 21st out of 30), but because of the slow pace, this was actually 25.3% of their possessions, which was terrible.


  This can't be right.

That percentage may be incorrect (I thought I saw it was somewhere in the 15-20% range, I forget) but the fact still remains we were near the bottom of the League. Rondo was the biggest culprit.

You're right, that percentage is wrong. I don't know why, but it's definitely wrong.

I was using the ESPN stats, both the Holinger stuff and the gross stats. Thanks for pointing that out; turns out I don't know how Hollinger gets his "TO ratio" stat. At the bottom, it says TO ratio is the "Turnover Ratio - the percentage of a team's possessions that end in a turnover." But his formula, if applied to the raw statistics, is not close to the one given for TO ratio.

Thank you for pointing that out.

However, the truth does remain that the C's are bottom of the league in terms of taking care of the ball. So the question remains: how worse of shooting could the C's tolerate to decrease their turnovers and still increase points per game?


Actually, now that I look at it, it looks like ESPN has screwed up and put the "assist" ratio numbers in the "Turnover ratio" column and vice versa. Wow.

Re: Offense this year.
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2010, 02:45:59 PM »

Offline Fan from VT

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2. Boston was 27th out of 30 for taking care of the ball. Bad. Only Minny, Clips, and Charlotte were worse. Boston turned it over 14.9 times per game (which was 21st out of 30), but because of the slow pace, this was actually 25.3% of their possessions, which was terrible.


  This can't be right.

That percentage may be incorrect (I thought I saw it was somewhere in the 15-20% range, I forget) but the fact still remains we were near the bottom of the League. Rondo was the biggest culprit.

  No, he wasn't. He's among the league leaders in assist/turnover ratio.

That's why I was surprised when I read an article about it (I got the link on CB I believe).

Apparently, he is pretty terrible at the pick-and-roll, like really, really bad. It actually isn't that surprising though considering what a poor shooter he is. He often finds himself penetrating with nowhere to go and everyone covered/doubled.

If I find the link I will post it.

EDIT: Found it

When reviewing Boston’s HoopData.com page, I noticed a really interesting stat.  The Boston Celtics were actually the 4th worst team in the NBA when it came to turnover rate.  The Celtics turned it over 14.46% of their possessions.  While some of their turnovers came in the post (12.6% of their post ups ended in turnovers), a big chunk of their turnovers came during the pick and roll (16.4% of their PNR Ball Handler possessions).  The biggest problem with the Celtics’ pick and roll is Rajon Rondo.  The fact that Rondo isn’t even close to being a shooting threat yet means that teams were able to go under PNRs that he was involved in.

http://nbaplaybook.com/2010/10/06/2010-2011-season-preview-boston-celtics/

I don't have access to Synergy, so I'm curious as to what the stat is telling us.  Does the 16.4% number include all PNR possessions, or just the ones that Rondo is the ball-handler in?  And does the 16.4% include offensive fouls, etc., such as illegal picks?

Based upon the one paragraph quoted, I'm just a little skeptical about the conclusions being drawn.  There's a difference between "Boston turns the ball over 16.4% of the time in the P&R" and "Rajon Rondo turns the ball over 16.4% of the time in the P&R".

The 16.4% is for all pick-and-roll's. I would assume it includes any turnover, be it an offensive foul, travel, or errant pass. They show some video examples of how teams break down Rondo off the PNR. There is no percentage for him alone.


Well, stats wise, Rondo was involved in about 22.5 counted possessions per game; since he turned it over 3 times per game that is about 13.33% turnover rate. Our team's was about 16.7%. So he's better than the team average.

Re: Offense this year.
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2010, 03:19:39 PM »

Offline BballTim

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2. Boston was 27th out of 30 for taking care of the ball. Bad. Only Minny, Clips, and Charlotte were worse. Boston turned it over 14.9 times per game (which was 21st out of 30), but because of the slow pace, this was actually 25.3% of their possessions, which was terrible.


  This can't be right.

That percentage may be incorrect (I thought I saw it was somewhere in the 15-20% range, I forget) but the fact still remains we were near the bottom of the League. Rondo was the biggest culprit.

You're right, that percentage is wrong. I don't know why, but it's definitely wrong.

I was using the ESPN stats, both the Holinger stuff and the gross stats. Thanks for pointing that out; turns out I don't know how Hollinger gets his "TO ratio" stat. At the bottom, it says TO ratio is the "Turnover Ratio - the percentage of a team's possessions that end in a turnover." But his formula, if applied to the raw statistics, is not close to the one given for TO ratio.

Thank you for pointing that out.

However, the truth does remain that the C's are bottom of the league in terms of taking care of the ball. So the question remains: how worse of shooting could the C's tolerate to decrease their turnovers and still increase points per game?


Actually, now that I look at it, it looks like ESPN has screwed up and put the "assist" ratio numbers in the "Turnover ratio" column and vice versa. Wow.

  Funny, I looked at the espn numbers, so at least I see where you got them from.

  If the Celts have 1-2 less turnovers a game that gives them 1-2 more scoring attempts when they have 80 or so a game now. You're talking about a drop of not more than 2% or so in ts% to maintain the same scoring.

Re: Offense this year.
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2010, 03:32:00 PM »

Offline pearljammer10

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Rondo is definitely not the problem with turnovers. If looking at last year and even previous years we've always had trouble taking care of the ball... The three biggest problems that come to mind when talking about turnovers are;

Perkins: His inability to just keep the dang ball up rather than dribble in the post after 7 years of NBA experience is just ridiculous. 7 years working with coaches and he still puts the ball on the floor carelessly boggles my mind. With Perk averaging 2.1 TO's a game while playing only 27 minutes shows that he is a big culprit of the turnover.

Tony Allen: Just a careless out of control offensive player most of the time. When he was on he was great, but more often than not he got in his own head, put his head down and went full steam to the basket and carelessly lost the ball out of bounds.

Paul Pierce: Pierce has been my favorite player ever since he step foot into the league. I have always defended his underrated tag and have given him major credit and props for defending him as a top 10 and even top 5 player during his prime. The one thing that is the worst of his game is taking care of the ball. Often times he tries to force a pass through the middle of the defense and it just doesnt work. Rather than work the ball around and get the extra pass, sometimes he just makes a Tony Allen like play and looses the ball. Its very frustrating to see.