Author Topic: Scal ranked least productive C's regular of alltime.  (Read 25463 times)

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Re: Scal ranked least productive C's regular of alltime.
« Reply #45 on: September 18, 2010, 10:57:10 AM »

Offline Roy H.

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more times then not, he gave them what they needed.  It wasn't flashy.  It wasn't eyeopening.  It was just solid play.

Are you really going to say that more often than not, Scal gave the C's what they needed? And more often than not, Scal's play was solid?

I get what wdleehi means.  In the '08 and '09 seasons, when Scal was asked to step in as a starter due to KG injuries, the team went 15-2.  He stepped in and stepped up, not necessarily in terms of production, but by helping facilitating things with the other starters, playing good defense, and by rarely forcing things.


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Re: Scal ranked least productive C's regular of alltime.
« Reply #46 on: September 18, 2010, 11:05:19 AM »

Offline BballTim

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Guys, I'll take Scal over Mikki Moore or Pat O'Bryant any day.  Scal knew how to play basketball and as long as his role was small he could play reasonably well within that role.  

Scal's a guy you put on the floor and hope that you don't notice him, and more often than not he's surprisingly good at not getting noticed.  In that sense, his lack of production is kind of a good thing.  Better a player who doesn't take many shots or mix it up on the floor because he knows he can't than a crappy player who takes a lot of shots cause he thinks he's a great scorer (e.g. Gerald Greene).

This is some of the most convoluted logic I've ever seen. First, minor point, I'm taking Mikki over Scal every day of the week. Moore's career PER is 12.5...Scal's 7.6, and Mikki cheered his teammates and hustled just as much as Scal did


  Just curious, but did you happen to see the 08-09 playoffs with KG and Powe out? Moore had a PER of 15.7 in those playoffs, while Scal's was 7.4. OTOH, Doc couldn't get away with putting Moore on the floor to spell the starters because he was such a liability. Scal played 245 minutes to Moore's 65. The team was -5 overall during Scal's 245 minutes and -34 in Moore's 65 minutes. Take Moore every day of the week, and the team that takes Scal will have a pretty big advantage between those two.

Re: Scal ranked least productive C's regular of alltime.
« Reply #47 on: September 18, 2010, 11:19:17 AM »

Offline housecall

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A role players contributions to a team is hard to nail down with stats alone.I don't think a bunch of numbers espn.com put up gives a clear or full story of any role player.Most role players play to inconsistently amount of minutes to determine their true worth with numbers only.I think the biggest problem most had with Scal was the contract amount.His basketball contributions never matched the contract numbers in most people eyes.It wasn't his fault someone overpaid him.IMO

Re: Scal ranked least productive C's regular of alltime.
« Reply #48 on: September 18, 2010, 11:36:05 AM »

Offline FatjohnReturns

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Bullspit. Simply not accurate.

Re: Scal ranked least productive C's regular of alltime.
« Reply #49 on: September 18, 2010, 12:23:37 PM »

Offline PosImpos

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Guys, I'll take Scal over Mikki Moore or Pat O'Bryant any day.  Scal knew how to play basketball and as long as his role was small he could play reasonably well within that role. 

Scal's a guy you put on the floor and hope that you don't notice him, and more often than not he's surprisingly good at not getting noticed.  In that sense, his lack of production is kind of a good thing.  Better a player who doesn't take many shots or mix it up on the floor because he knows he can't than a crappy player who takes a lot of shots cause he thinks he's a great scorer (e.g. Gerald Greene).

This is some of the most convoluted logic I've ever seen. First, minor point, I'm taking Mikki over Scal every day of the week. Moore's career PER is 12.5...Scal's 7.6, and Mikki cheered his teammates and hustled just as much as Scal did

In the second part of that, the fact that we're saying that when Scal went on the floor and did nothing (and knew that he couldn't) was a good thing for the team is pretty much proof as to how bad he was as a player. He was a rotation player, folks. You can't be a rotation player if the only skill you have is knowing you don't have any.


Stats and PER are not everything.

Scal goes out there and he'll fit in with the lineup, as long as the lineup is one that allows him to simply focus on playing defense, making a decent pass, stretching the defense a bit with his outside shot, setting good picks, and so on.  This is why Doc so often started Scal instead of Glen Davis or Powe when Garnett was out.

Scal is the kind of player who does all of the little things.  He was never a great player and nobody here is trying to say that he was.  But I'll take Scal over somebody who doesn't know how to play the game or doesn't play with effort.

Mikki Moore, by the way, couldn't stay on the floor cause he was a foul machine.  That's the only production we got out of him.  His defense was atrocious.

My favorite player, Shane Battier, is a huge asset to any team, yet he doesn't produce very much and he has a low PER.  All of what he adds to the game can't be measured that well with stats - 1 on 1 and team defense, spreading the floor, setting good picks, making good passes, communication on and off the floor, team leadership, and so on.  Scal does a lot of those things - just not nearly as well as Shane does.  What I'm describing is a glue guy - not a flashy player, not even a 1-skill specialist (e.g. Eddie House).  A player who who has an impact on a game by doing a lot of little things that aren't easily noticed.  Yet glue guys are absolutely necessary on a successful team.  

Now, again, if your team is any good and not dealing with injuries, Scal doesn't ever see the floor.  But you feel confident knowing that if Scal had to see the floor, you can rely on him to not make a ton of mistakes or mess up the team's gameplan, which is more than you can say about most reserve guys on NBA teams.  As a glue guy, Scal is far from the best; clearly, he's only a fringe NBA player.  But this list we're talking about has him below a lot of shouldn't-have-been-in-the-NBA players.

Bottom line, you'd rather have a guy who isn't athletic or particularly talented but knows his role and doesn't question it, and has an overall very positive effect in the locker-room - as your 13-15th man, mind you - than a younger guy with athleticism and perhaps some "potential" who is really raw, doesn't know the game very well, and has behavioral or attitude issues.  That means Scal is preferable to a lot of players the C's have had on their team in the last 10 years, let alone the team's entire existence.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2010, 12:30:50 PM by PosImpos »
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Re: Scal ranked least productive C's regular of alltime.
« Reply #50 on: September 18, 2010, 01:48:43 PM »

Offline ThaPreacher

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Bullspit. Simply not accurate.

LEAST PRODUCTIVE?   Who dares say that?  What Celtic Bashing
Website provided the statistics?    Balderdash!!   Dada Nada!


Facts:  Brian Scalabrine was the most overpaid bench player
that money could buy since, Jon Koncak left Atlanta.

Brian Scalabrine was the most effective Mascot the Celtics have ever had, saving Lucky the Leprechaun.

Brian Scalabrine was more effective at towel waving than than even M.L. Carr.  (on a more rotation per minute basis).

Brian Scalabrine was the best red headed basketball player who possessed
 the least amount of vertical jumping ability,  dribbling skills, ability to defend or score,
Ever, and I mean ever to play the game.


First Dennis Rodman.
Now Brian Scalabrine!

They will do anything to keep these guys out of the hall of fame!


I say its simply:       Stupiculous!!!!



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Re: Scal ranked least productive C's regular of alltime.
« Reply #51 on: September 19, 2010, 09:51:32 AM »

Offline soap07

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Anyone who can't see that Scal played a solid role for us and was able to step in and produce to a decent degree even after large stretches of no minutes is just thinking about the paycheck. Fact is, if the guy made vet minimum no one would complain about him at all. (Unless of course your bias isn't the money but his pasty white redheadedness)

What did he produce? This isn't about the paycheck completely. This is about an inability to keep in shape, rebound, shoot, dribble, jump or run. Scal had one redeeming quality - he could play decent defense, but was a complete liability in every other facet of the game. As a rotation player, he was among the worst in history .

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"OTOH, Doc couldn't get away with putting Moore on the floor to spell the starters because he was such a liability. Scal played 245 minutes to Moore's 65. The team was -5 overall during Scal's 245 minutes and -34 in Moore's 65 minutes. Take Moore every day of the week, and the team that takes Scal will have a pretty big advantage between those two."

+/- in a vacuum is a terrible stat and I bet that you know that. Mikki didn't play well as a Celtic, that's for sure. However, I will not judge either player's abilities based on a small stretch of games in a long career. I will take the whole career and say that Mikki is a better player than Scalabrine, although neither should be in an NBA rotation.

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"Stats and PER are not everything.

Pospimos, your post is filled with vague generalities. No one is saying stats and PER everything. But in Scal's case, they do a good job illustrating that in his time here, he really didn't do anything.

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"But I'll take Scal over somebody who doesn't know how to play the game or doesn't play with effort."

Again with the generalities. This is an NBA championship caliber team. We're giving him credit for playing with effort? The vast majority of NBA players play with effort. There are those that don't (Mark Blount), but that is generally the exception, not the rule. And Scal "knows how to play the game"? I mean - yes, he does. So does...everybody in the NBA. He may mentally have a good grasp of the NBA but it never translated on the court.


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My favorite player, Shane Battier, is a huge asset to any team, yet he doesn't produce very much and he has a low PER.  All of what he adds to the game can't be measured that well with stats - 1 on 1 and team defense, spreading the floor, setting good picks, making good passes, communication on and off the floor, team leadership, and so on.  Scal does a lot of those things - just not nearly as well as Shane does.  What I'm describing is a glue guy - not a flashy player, not even a 1-skill specialist (e.g. Eddie House).  A player who who has an impact on a game by doing a lot of little things that aren't easily noticed.  Yet glue guys are absolutely necessary on a successful team. 

Actually, Battier's stats do illustrate his game pretty well. His PER is 13.3, which is actually decent for a role player. He can hit the 3 pretty well to the tune of 39% for his career. He's averaged near double-digit scoring for his career on a solid PPS. So in essence, Battier actually has tangible skills that contribute to the team. Scalabrine didn't and more often hurt the team than helped. Yes, there were the odd times when Scalabrine would set a good pick and hit the ground for a hustle play. But more often than not, those were offset by the fact that when he was on the floor, the team had to go 4-5 on offense, not hitting open 3's, not rebounding, etc etc.

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Now, again, if your team is any good and not dealing with injuries, Scal doesn't ever see the floor.  But you feel confident knowing that if Scal had to see the floor, you can rely on him to not make a ton of mistakes or mess up the team's gameplan, which is more than you can say about most reserve guys on NBA teams.  As a glue guy, Scal is far from the best; clearly, he's only a fringe NBA player.  But this list we're talking about has him below a lot of shouldn't-have-been-in-the-NBA players.

Agreed with this - I don't blame Scal for the minutes he got here. Doc overplayed him in part because of his own stubbornness and in part because of injuries. The simple point of the OP was that as a rotation player, Scal is one of the worst in Celtics history. This is true.


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Bottom line, you'd rather have a guy who isn't athletic or particularly talented but knows his role and doesn't question it, and has an overall very positive effect in the locker-room - as your 13-15th man, mind you - than a younger guy with athleticism and perhaps some "potential" who is really raw, doesn't know the game very well, and has behavioral or attitude issues.  That means Scal is preferable to a lot of players the C's have had on their team in the last 10 years, let alone the team's entire existence.

Can you do worse than Scal as a 13-15th guy? Yes. Not much worse though....but I think we can all agree that Scalabrine doesn't have the conditioning or the skills to play more than 5 minutes a game for any NBA team (or at least an NBA team that wants to win).

Re: Scal ranked least productive C's regular of alltime.
« Reply #52 on: September 19, 2010, 11:13:20 AM »

Offline BballTim

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"OTOH, Doc couldn't get away with putting Moore on the floor to spell the starters because he was such a liability. Scal played 245 minutes to Moore's 65. The team was -5 overall during Scal's 245 minutes and -34 in Moore's 65 minutes. Take Moore every day of the week, and the team that takes Scal will have a pretty big advantage between those two."

+/- in a vacuum is a terrible stat and I bet that you know that. Mikki didn't play well as a Celtic, that's for sure. However, I will not judge either player's abilities based on a small stretch of games in a long career. I will take the whole career and say that Mikki is a better player than Scalabrine, although neither should be in an NBA rotation.


  Yes, +/- in a vacuum is a terrible stat, but it wasn't really in a vacuum, it was directly reflective of the obvious. The differential in minutes was reflective of the same thing. The point of the post was that PER in a vacuum is also a terrible stat. You were showing Mikki was more productive than Scal based on a better PER (12.5 to 7.6) while I was illustrating that Moore had a much larger PER advantage over Scal in the 09 playoffs (15.7 to 7.4) and was, by all accounts, significantly worse in spite of that advantage.

Re: Scal ranked least productive C's regular of alltime.
« Reply #53 on: September 19, 2010, 01:13:44 PM »

Offline Brendan

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The funny thing here is that I wonder if they are even watching the games....seeing how Scal played his role effectively for us.

Last year for Scal was tough, with those concussions and all, but I just cannot agree with whatever their rationale is.

It just seemed to me that while Scal certainly was not the most talented player on our team, he played his role really well and did not make many mistakes while in the game.

This sort of stuff from ESPN makes me appreciate some other sports outlets even more. For example - that Kelly Dwyer piece from Yahoo Sports I believe that had the PF ranking several weeks ago? They had KG ranked number 8, and rightfully so - but at least Dwyer had the knowledge to state that KG's intangibles make him much more valuable than the ranking alone.

I think the same thing applies to Scal, and it's much more than him being a good guy. Over the last few years - when he was healthy - Scal was a rotation player for us.

Sure - Scal made a lot of money to just be a rotation player, but looking back I can't be mad at him. That 15Mil was his Big Payday - his max contract, I believe.
On what planet was Scal a rotation player? He was at best a reserve, sometimes a bench warmer or cheer leader.

Brendan - What about the few games where Scal started because of injuries to our starters? Or the games where he may not have started, but was the 6th or 7th player off the bench - again due to injuries?

We can't always look at stats - we all know this, right?
You are cherry picking a few successes. All the other unproductive players had their few good moments too.

You seem to be ignoring his first 2 horrific seasons when he actually had a chance to get minutes.

  I don't think he's talking about successes (per se), just times that he played enough that he could be considered a rotation player.
To me a rotation player is someone who gets regular minutes (10+) when everyone is healthy in non-blow out games. The fact that he got some minutes when there was a blow out or injuries makes him a reserve. But there were a lot of games when he was cheer leading or bench warming - a lot of those times in street clothes.

Scal's best moments on the team he was a reserve, often less. I stand by my original statement.

Re: Scal ranked least productive C's regular of alltime.
« Reply #54 on: September 19, 2010, 02:07:55 PM »

Offline BballTim

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The funny thing here is that I wonder if they are even watching the games....seeing how Scal played his role effectively for us.

Last year for Scal was tough, with those concussions and all, but I just cannot agree with whatever their rationale is.

It just seemed to me that while Scal certainly was not the most talented player on our team, he played his role really well and did not make many mistakes while in the game.

This sort of stuff from ESPN makes me appreciate some other sports outlets even more. For example - that Kelly Dwyer piece from Yahoo Sports I believe that had the PF ranking several weeks ago? They had KG ranked number 8, and rightfully so - but at least Dwyer had the knowledge to state that KG's intangibles make him much more valuable than the ranking alone.

I think the same thing applies to Scal, and it's much more than him being a good guy. Over the last few years - when he was healthy - Scal was a rotation player for us.

Sure - Scal made a lot of money to just be a rotation player, but looking back I can't be mad at him. That 15Mil was his Big Payday - his max contract, I believe.
On what planet was Scal a rotation player? He was at best a reserve, sometimes a bench warmer or cheer leader.

Brendan - What about the few games where Scal started because of injuries to our starters? Or the games where he may not have started, but was the 6th or 7th player off the bench - again due to injuries?

We can't always look at stats - we all know this, right?
You are cherry picking a few successes. All the other unproductive players had their few good moments too.

You seem to be ignoring his first 2 horrific seasons when he actually had a chance to get minutes.

  I don't think he's talking about successes (per se), just times that he played enough that he could be considered a rotation player.
To me a rotation player is someone who gets regular minutes (10+) when everyone is healthy in non-blow out games. The fact that he got some minutes when there was a blow out or injuries makes him a reserve. But there were a lot of games when he was cheer leading or bench warming - a lot of those times in street clothes.

Scal's best moments on the team he was a reserve, often less. I stand by my original statement.

  Your description of Scal (he got some minutes when there was a blow out or injuries) is a lot more fitting for JR Giddens or Gabe Pruitt. Scal averaged about 50 games and about 700 minutes a year for the Celts. He'd have averaged 50 games and 10+ minutes during our title contender years if not for his concussion issues. I'm not interested in whether or not he's a rotation player or a reserve as they mean different things to different people. But coming up with an arbitrary description of what a rotation player is and saying "On what planet was Scal a rotation player" based on that seems a little over the top.

Re: Scal ranked least productive C's regular of alltime.
« Reply #55 on: September 19, 2010, 03:41:58 PM »

Offline BballTim

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My favorite player, Shane Battier, is a huge asset to any team, yet he doesn't produce very much and he has a low PER.  All of what he adds to the game can't be measured that well with stats - 1 on 1 and team defense, spreading the floor, setting good picks, making good passes, communication on and off the floor, team leadership, and so on.  Scal does a lot of those things - just not nearly as well as Shane does.  What I'm describing is a glue guy - not a flashy player, not even a 1-skill specialist (e.g. Eddie House).  A player who who has an impact on a game by doing a lot of little things that aren't easily noticed.  Yet glue guys are absolutely necessary on a successful team. 

Actually, Battier's stats do illustrate his game pretty well. His PER is 13.3, which is actually decent for a role player. He can hit the 3 pretty well to the tune of 39% for his career. He's averaged near double-digit scoring for his career on a solid PPS. So in essence, Battier actually has tangible skills that contribute to the team. Scalabrine didn't and more often hurt the team than helped. Yes, there were the odd times when Scalabrine would set a good pick and hit the ground for a hustle play. But more often than not, those were offset by the fact that when he was on the floor, the team had to go 4-5 on offense, not hitting open 3's, not rebounding, etc etc.


  Just for comparison, though, Battier is a .385 career 3 point shooter compared to .350 for Scal. Battier's PER36 numbers are 11 points 5 boards and 2 assists, while Scal clocks in at 9 points 5 boards and 2 assists. Not saying Scal's as good as Battier, but if I was praising the contributions of one player I don't know I'd say the other was a liability in every facet of the game and among the worst  role players of all time.

Re: Scal ranked least productive C's regular of alltime.
« Reply #56 on: September 19, 2010, 04:41:33 PM »

Online slamtheking

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Scal least productive?  Once I get over my dislike for his game and lousy contract, I find that hard to believe especially when Eric Fernsten, Rick Carlisle and Darren Tillis aren't even mentioned.  if someone wants to throw in the perspective of expectations and/or contracts, Vin Baker and Michael Smith are worse than Scal.  Throw in injuries as well and I'd toss Raef nto that conversation too.

Re: Scal ranked least productive C's regular of alltime.
« Reply #57 on: September 19, 2010, 05:09:28 PM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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Well, for all of the Scal detractors out there, looks like he may soon be playing for CHI and Thibs.

Personally, I'll miss the guy and his intangibles. Sure - he made a lot of dough to be our 5th (sometimes 6th) big off the bench), and on paper he may not have produced much. But he was here when we were at our worst, and he got himself a ring as well.

Re: Scal ranked least productive C's regular of alltime.
« Reply #58 on: September 19, 2010, 06:41:24 PM »

Offline Finkelskyhook

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I'd rank the reporter who saw Scal as C's regular who came up with this meaningless stat the least productive reporter of all time. 

Hope Scal makes some money and is an asset to the Bulls or whatever team picks him up.  He did everything that was asked of him and at least outwardly, never showed an attitude when he didn't get opportunities to play.

Re: Scal ranked least productive C's regular of alltime.
« Reply #59 on: September 19, 2010, 07:36:00 PM »

Offline celticinorlando

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LOL at Scal the waterboy