Author Topic: Delonte's Brain  (Read 6181 times)

0 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

Delonte's Brain
« on: September 07, 2010, 07:01:40 PM »

Offline Neurotic Guy

  • Tommy Heinsohn
  • *************************
  • Posts: 25683
  • Tommy Points: 2727
I have seen many references in the past few days to Delonte's 'head'.  Folks generally feel if his 'head is on straight' he'll be a positive contributor.  But, many seem to feel that the hope of him keeping his head straight is a precarious hope.  There is a looming worry that at some point he'll implode.  

I wanted to start this thread as a forum that could allow our community to educate itself using our collective wisdom and experiences.  But, in fear of this thread taking an almost unavoidable detour into a debate about whether mental illness or bipolar disorder are real, I want to suggest a few premises and ground rules:

1) While none of us really know what Delonte's issues are or what his true 'diagnosis' is, the diagnosis most frequently mentioned in reference to Delonte is Bipolar Disorder.  
For the sake of disussion, I'd like to presume that this is his diagnosis.

2) Some people do not believe that mental illness is real or that it ought to be used as an excuse or reason for poor behavior or performance.  This debate has occurred before on these pages.  This is not intented as a thread for this debate.
For the sake of this discussion, I'd like to rest on the assumption that mental illnesses are conditions that require treatment in order for the ill person to be 'healthy' or at least to be less/minimally impacted by the manifestations of the diosorder.

3) Some people do not believe that Bipolar Disorder is real or that it is frequently misdiagnosed. Again, that debate has occurred and this is not intended as the thread to hash that out.
For the sake of this discussion, I'd like to rest on the presumption that Bipolar Disorder is a legitimate, diagnosable mental illness.

SO, I offer this thread as a forum to help me and others to understand what it takes for a person with Bipolar Disorder to 'keep his head on straight'.  I realize that some will be tempted to enter into debate mode by suggesting that Bipolar is just an excuse and all he needs to do is 'suck it up' or 'grow up', or 'try harder'.  You may be correct, but I'd like very much if we can resist going down that road. I'd rather use this thread to reflect the assumption that mental illness is serious; that it's not the same as 'the blues' or 'worries' or 'being hyper' or 'impulsive', but rather a chronic illness that will not improve unless properly treated.  I already know that some do not accept that premise.

My plea here is to avoid this thread going down to a debate over mental illness rather than a discussion of bipolar disorder, the disorder's typical course, symptoms and manifestations, typical treatments, common responses to treatement --  particularly with a 27 yo man, the treatment's potential impact on the brain and body, how the disorder itself and/or the treatment could impact a basketball player, short and long term prognosis, etc.  

Again, if you want to post about how you don't believe Bipolar Disorder is real or shouldn't be used as an excuse, please start another thread.  I hope that is accepted as a reasonable request as I am attempting to preserve the intent of the thread and know how easily it can spark into a different direction.










Re: Delonte's Brain
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2010, 07:28:27 PM »

Offline More Banners

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3845
  • Tommy Points: 257
Great concept, Neurotic Guy.  I wish there were little MVP trophies or something, since at TP just doesn't seem like enough recognition relative to the importance of your idea.  Heck, take a TP anyway...with my complements and respect.

Mental illnesses usually are not "cured," but can be "managed" so that the affected individual can live well (or at least as well as the rest of us).  SO one important idea for us all to keep in mind is that this isn't a temporary thing, but is something that Delonte will need to learn to manage on an ongoing basis(assuming, as we are in the thread, that the Bipolar report is true, that it's also accurate, and also assuming that it is any of our business).

So that's the ticket.  Surely Big Pharma wants us to think they have the answers, and also wants us to buy their answers (paying top dollar, of course).  That can be part of it.  Another part, and a hard one for folks with Bipolar disorder, is to recognize their own symptoms/cycles and respond appropriately.  That's pretty hard to do.  Another part is to have people around that actually care about you as a person that you trust.  In the NBA, that might be darned near impossible.

SO I think Boston might actually be the best place for him, both on the court and off.  His new-old teammates seem to really like and care about him, and he now has a coach that actually pays attention to the players and is great at communicating, and does it often.  All the pieces are there, so there is no reason not to expect this to go fairly well.


Re: Delonte's Brain
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2010, 07:34:10 PM »

Online Roy H.

  • Forums Manager
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 63251
  • Tommy Points: -25460
  • Bo Knows: Joe Don't Know Diddley
My fiancee' is a therapist / clinician in a crisis unit.  I asked her for a thumbnail sketch, and this is what I was able to get out of her (as interpreted by me):

Primary treatment for bi-polar is psycho-pharmacology (i.e., medication).  Generally, he'd have to be treated with a mood stabilizer (lithium being one of the most typical prescribed).  It's very important that Delonte stay on his medication, although most people who suffer from bi-polar will at one point or another stop taking medication on their own.  (One of the reasons for this is because people who suffer from bi-polar "miss the mountains", i.e., the highs and lows of their "normal" lives.  Many patients find medications "stifling"; it's very important that patients work with their doctors to ensure that they're on the right medication).  It's also very important not to self-medicate with alcohol or other drugs, although this is very common in people suffering from bi-polar.

Secondary treatment is therapy.  It would depend on the therapist and his/her approach, but this would most likely be CBT (cognitive behavioral therapy), in which the therapist works with the patient on thought re-direction, etc.  A primary objective is to get the patient to be able to function at a normal level; obviously, this can be complicated when "normal" is the life of an NBA basketball player.

Bi-polar can be very debilitating.  Medications can have side effects, including extreme lethargy.  A person suffering from bi-polar may still manifest symptoms even when on medication, including mania, depression, irritability, impulsiveness, frustration, etc.  This can lead to isolation from his teammates, etc.  People in a manic state often don't make / handle relationships very well.  (Mania can be analogous to a cocaine addict; a "normal" person may seem very boring to this addict, and the "normal" person may struggle to "keep up" with the addict.)  

It's a long-term treatment; bi-polar doesn't "go away".  Rather, people learn to manage and cope with it.  Different patients react to medications differently, and some may show short term progress, while others do not.  (There are also different levels of bi-polar, Bi-Polar 1 and Bi-Polar 2.  BP1 is more severe, with many people with BP1 having problems holding down a full-time job, etc.  This is much more debilitating.  Some people with BP also have psychotic features, such as hallucinations, delusions, etc.  In other words, it's a pretty heavy thing.)


I'M THE SILVERBACK GORILLA IN THIS MOTHER... AND DON'T NONE OF YA'LL EVER FORGET IT!

KP / Giannis / Turkuglu / Jrue / Curry
Sabonis / Brand / A. Thompson / Oladipo / Brunson
Jordan / Bowen

Redshirt:  Cooper Flagg

Re: Delonte's Brain
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2010, 07:39:28 PM »

Offline Neurotic Guy

  • Tommy Heinsohn
  • *************************
  • Posts: 25683
  • Tommy Points: 2727
More Banners -- thanks for excellent reply.  Yes -- we need to remind ourselves that this speculation is about a real human being, and that the truth is, we know absolutely nothing about him and it is only with regard to basketball performance that it is really any of our business.  For our discussion, we are making assumptions -- ones that we know are not necessarily reflective of the truth.

Among your points, you mention the importance of the person's recognition of symptoms/cycles.  I'd imagine that folks with this disorder must struggle enormously with this. It would seem to me that it would be counter-intuitive for a person experiencing a 'manic' episode to seek medication to control it.  I would think that would be feeling pretty good -- why would you medicate it, and how hard is it to self-observe when it's happening? I'd imagine the insidiousness of it is that your brain is preventing you from awareness while awareness seems so essential to getting the correct treatment.... ?
« Last Edit: September 07, 2010, 07:47:08 PM by Neurotic Guy »

Re: Delonte's Brain
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2010, 07:46:24 PM »

Offline Neurotic Guy

  • Tommy Heinsohn
  • *************************
  • Posts: 25683
  • Tommy Points: 2727
Roy -- it would seem just as important for Doc, Danny, teammates to be aware of the signs/ symptoms and to have Delonte's OK in advance to address these things as they arise.  And what about teammates knowing how critical it is that D not use alcohol if on meds...  Also, how difficult it must be for a young man who is likely going to gain a ton of attention through manic behavior and for his peers to not be tempted to encourage that -- because it's fun....

You also have me thinking about 2 other things:
1) Since going off meds is inevitable, shouldn't the team (and the fans) be expecting that at some point D will need some help.    
2) What impact do the meds have on energy, endurance, coordination, mental functioning, and anything else that could impact basketball performance...?  What a miserable dilemma it would be if Delonte's basketball skills are at their best when not medicated (presuming medication is the treatment of choice to address the illness).

Re: Delonte's Brain
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2010, 08:04:48 PM »

Offline billysan

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3875
  • Tommy Points: 178
Having a family member that is currently diagnosed with BiPolar Disorder, I would like to say I have some good input on this topic. I am also a Healthcare Professional and that should have given me some insight, shouldnt it? Wrong on both counts.

I can share some factual feedback on my family's encounter with this condition. My cousin goes through a seemingly endless cycle (his words) of Recognition, Acceptance, Treatment, and finally non compliance with medications with the belief that he is finally 'better'. We have lived in this loop with him for nearly twenty years.

This is an insidious condition, I can only wish Delonte West and his family the best. Our prayers and support are the only real help we can offer IMO. 
"First fix their hearts" -Eizo Shimabuku

Re: Delonte's Brain
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2010, 08:28:43 PM »

Offline nickagneta

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 48121
  • Tommy Points: 8800
  • President of Jaylen Brown Fan Club
Well most of you know me here and I have Bi-Polar Disorder. Manifestations of the disorder are a Social Anxiety disorder as well as a Seasonal Affective Disorder.

Basically off medication I go through periods of depressions and mania. During the depressive times everything makes me sad which makes me want to isolate myself so that others can't see the sadness. Being alone makes me feel worthless and the entire situation makes me dwell on the situation which mentally exhausts me. The mental exhaustion leads to physical exhaustion which leads to me wanting to sleep and stay in bed all the time. Waking up feeling this way only starts the cycle and multiplies the effect.

One of the ways that I and others tried to stop this cycle is through self medication or reckless behavior. Self medicating is self explanatory and can be done with alcohol or drugs, prescription or otherwise. Reckless behavior often means spending money you don't have because of the thrill you get from having something new. Some will have sexual affairs and/or hire prostitutes, drive excessively fast, steal or do other things where they can be caught as it's dangerous and satisfies the need for getting that "high" to get rid of the lows.

Once the depression is turned into the mania then I get the feeling of euphoria and omnipotence. You feel that you can continue to self medicate and do dangerous and reckless things because you aren't getting caught. I talk faster and my mind races. Sleeping and following to sleep becomes very difficult and I lose my appetite and stop eating properly. I lose weight, which of course feeds the mania because I feel better about the way I look and feel.

Then eventually you run out of money, or drugs, or booze, or get caught doing something like having an affair or stealing something or whatever. Then everything crashes and it all starts all over again. The ups and downs can last long periods or times or short times. it's different for every person. My mother, who also has Bi Polar Disorder can go through the above process right in front of you in a matter of seconds. For me the cycles are long and drawn out.

I have discovered that the worst depressive cycles for me start right around the end of march early April. Off medication I have become incapable to get out of my severe, severe depression during some years into October. On medication, my depression is much more controllable during the spring and it lasts a couple of weeks. This last year it was the shortest it has ever been since I was a teenager, just a little over a week.

It took many years for me to personally recognize that I had this illness. Then I spent years denying it because of the stigma most are taught about being "crazy" or "weak minded" or "psycho". It then took years of experimenting with psychotropic medications and therapists and psychiatrists to get the proper mixture and doses that worked for my particular type of illness. I lost a decade or more of my life to this disease.

But now, I take my medication religiously. I see my psychiatrist and therapist regularly and they work as a team to recognize when things are happening and how best to help me. And I have to help myself. Education of the science behind the illness was very important. Education of how the medications work was very important.

Understanding that Bi Polar Disorder effects your emotions and not your actions was probably the most important thing of all. To properly handle the disease one MUST use your brain and self control to overcome your emotions and what they try to lead you to do. A calm living environment is important. being surrounded by supportive, loving, caring people who can talk to you when they see change in you is vital. Being able to recognize you feelings are changing and knowing that you have to be honest with those feelings and telling your medical team about them is also one of the most important things you can do to control it.

Yoga, meditation, exercise, proper diet and keeping oneself out of stressful situations you can not handle are also extremely important in the care of the disease.

It is very easy to give into this disease and let it control you and let it ruin you. Growing up with it to you feels normal and you think everyone has these feelings. Medication takes that away and there are a lot of nasty side effects to the medication like weight gain, sexual impotency, speeding thoughts, lack of appetite, lack of sleep, lethargy, etc. etc. Taking medicines to make you feel not normal for what you think is normal but what others say is normal and then have it give you bad side effects is one of the reasons people give up on the meds. Others, once they start feeling better think it's like taking aspirins and that it has cured the headache and so are cured and don't need it anymore. Some, though I think it is the minority, stop taking them because they enjoy the depressive and manic episodes.

One thing you need to know about the depression end of Bi Polar Disorder, once you go into a prolonged depressive episode while not being treated for the disease, you enter into and exponentially higher risk to have another and when you have the next one it is exponentially a worse depressive episode. This is not a linear situation of increasing frequency and severity of the depressive episodes. It's exponential.

Hence, medical experts are trying harder and harder to find ways to diagnose the disease early in life and find the proper medication early so that people can then have long fruitful productive lives. Most people, before running to a doctor to talk about their depression and so forth have experienced many depressive episodes and unfortunately can look forward to a long tough road to getting control of their lives back from the disease.

So, if you know for certain that mental illness runs in either your family or the family of your partner/spouse who you have children with, get those kids to see a therapist before puberty to see if there are any tell tale signs. If either parent has a history of mental illness(properly diagnosed) then there about a 33% chance the child will have it as well.If they say there are signs, REFUSE to give them medication. Let the therapists do all the initial work. If they think the signs are there, they will work with your child through therapy helping to teach the child emotional control and proper decision making. Only when they become young adults if the therapy is not working should you try medication.

If they don't see the signs they will tell you and just have your child in for a yearly visit to talk and keep track of things. It's no big deal!!!!!!!! All three of my kids have been to therapists since they were 10. None, thank god have shown any signs of anything. Though another thing one needs to know is that alcohol and drugs can trigger a latent case so once they become young adults, still keep an eye out.

For me, so far so good, hopefully it has skipped that generation. But I teach my kids about it and have made it clear they have to do for their kids what I did for them to keep that eye out for it. The proper education hopefully will someday prevent one of my grandkids or great grand kids not have to lose a decade or more of their life like their grandfather or great grandfather or maybe if they have a severe case, maybe that education and early detection will save their lives.

Re: Delonte's Brain
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2010, 08:55:36 PM »

Offline thirstyboots18

  • Chat Moderator
  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8791
  • Tommy Points: 2584
Roy and Nick, Great educational effort by you both to explain this terrible disease.  My daughter suffers from what they call "uni-polar" which in her case is the lows without the highs, and she also has Social Anxioty symptoms.  She is on medication and has finally, finally, after many tries, found help that is working for her.  DBT therapy has been a lifesaver!  Keep educating people, there are an awful lot of undiagnosed (or misdiagnosed) cases out there.  It takes about six weeks for meds to be effective, and if you stop taking them it starts over...and takes about six weeks to be effective again.  That is one reason so many people stop taking them...they feel worse before they feel better, and assume they are not working.  Additionally, there are many different meds and the same ones do not work for everyone, so there can be a trial and error period.  When you are feeling so bad that can be very frustrating.
Yesterday is history.
Tomorrow is a mystery.
Today is a gift...
   That is why it is called the present.
Visit the CelticsBlog Live Game Chat!

Re: Delonte's Brain
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2010, 09:00:13 PM »

Offline thirstyboots18

  • Chat Moderator
  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8791
  • Tommy Points: 2584
Also, thanks to NeuroticGuy for this thread! 
Yesterday is history.
Tomorrow is a mystery.
Today is a gift...
   That is why it is called the present.
Visit the CelticsBlog Live Game Chat!

Re: Delonte's Brain
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2010, 09:06:24 PM »

Offline nickagneta

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 48121
  • Tommy Points: 8800
  • President of Jaylen Brown Fan Club
Roy and Nick, Great educational effort by you both to explain this terrible disease.  My daughter suffers from what they call "uni-polar" which in her case is the lows without the highs, and she also has Social Anxioty symptoms.  She is on medication and has finally, finally, after many tries, found help that is working for her.  DBT therapy has been a lifesaver!  Keep educating people, there are an awful lot of undiagnosed (or misdiagnosed) cases out there.  It takes about six weeks for meds to be effective, and if you stop taking them it starts over...and takes about six weeks to be effective again.  That is one reason so many people stop taking them...they feel worse before they feel better, and assume they are not working.  Additionally, there are many different meds and the same ones do not work for everyone, so there can be a trial and error period.  When you are feeling so bad that can be very frustrating.
For the longest time I was diagnosed uni-polar depressive. The meds never worked. part of the problem was my dishonesty about certain things with my therapist and psychiatrist and family. Once i was honest and up front, the diagnosis was crystal clear and then it was the trial and error period of finding the right meds and then using them properly.

Here's something else about the meds when they are trying to find the right ones for you. You can take the meds properly and 10 weeks later feel no better because the medication isn't working. But YOU CAN NOT INSTANTLY STOP TAKING THESE MEDS. Doing so can cause severe depression and suicidal thoughts. So the doctors have to first ween you off the medications slowly and then slowly put you on new meds. SSometimes they can do that at the same time. Sometimes not. Then it's another waiting period to see how the meds are working and if they need to be tweaked.

Also the medications work by being constantly in the bloodstream. Which means they have to be taken at the same dosage at the same times every day and you can't skip days. Sure if you miss a day here or there no biggie. But you can't be missing 2-3 days a week or doubling up on the dosage the next day or taking alcohol while taking them because then they don't work.

That doesn't mean you can't have a drink or have some on any one given night. You just can't be regularly drinking alcohol, it counteracts the drugs.

Re: Delonte's Brain
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2010, 09:08:08 PM »

Offline Neurotic Guy

  • Tommy Heinsohn
  • *************************
  • Posts: 25683
  • Tommy Points: 2727
Nick - Thanks so much for the very personal and deeply  informative post.  You've described in a way no one but someone who has lived it the insidious nature of the illness, and the power of it.  If Delonte indeed has to deal with this disorder, I hope he has folks around him who understand it like you do.  I hope he reads this thread.

The following excerpt from your post was most poignant to me in terms of the importance of recognition (which is clearly a developmental process), and the multiple elements of 'treatment' that include a comprehensive approach -- therapy, medication and a pervasive support system.  Thanks!

"Understanding that Bi Polar Disorder effects your emotions and not your actions was probably the most important thing of all. To properly handle the disease one MUST use your brain and self control to overcome your emotions and what they try to lead you to do. A calm living environment is important. being surrounded by supportive, loving, caring people who can talk to you when they see change in you is vital. Being able to recognize you feelings are changing and knowing that you have to be honest with those feelings and telling your medical team about them is also one of the most important things you can do to control it."

Re: Delonte's Brain
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2010, 09:15:51 PM »

Offline thirstyboots18

  • Chat Moderator
  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8791
  • Tommy Points: 2584
Also, the meds seldom work alone.  You must do the therapy in conjunction with the meds.  My daughter was told that she was probably born with her conditon...that it was probably not caused by any life experience.  My father and my husband's mother both suffered, in different degrees, from depression and it is thought to run in families.  My sisters also have it.  As has been mentioned, at this point there is no cure, but it can be controlled.
Yesterday is history.
Tomorrow is a mystery.
Today is a gift...
   That is why it is called the present.
Visit the CelticsBlog Live Game Chat!

Re: Delonte's Brain
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2010, 09:41:20 PM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

  • NCE
  • Reggie Lewis
  • ***************
  • Posts: 15402
  • Tommy Points: 2785
Well, reading the posts here have been educational for me. I've made references about Delonte being in a better environment here vice CLE. In my limited knowledge of his condition, I now know, from reading this thread, that this may or may not be the case.

This thread has reminded me that Delonte's struggle is in fact, real.

There was a thread that had a youtube video about Delonte earlier today. It featured him kidding around in the CLE locker room with Varejao. That, and this thread, made it real to me maybe for the first time that Delonte is struggling with this, no matter what the environment is.

I now realize that CLE may not have been the issue at all.

Praying for you, Delonte, as well as you, Nick. Thanks for starting the thread, NG.

Re: Delonte's Brain
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2010, 09:44:59 PM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

  • NCE
  • Reggie Lewis
  • ***************
  • Posts: 15402
  • Tommy Points: 2785
Also praying for TB and billysan's family members as well.

Re: Delonte's Brain
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2010, 09:50:41 PM »

Offline Bahku

  • CB HOF Editor
  • Bill Sharman
  • *******************
  • Posts: 19771
  • Tommy Points: 3632
  • Oe ma krr pamtseotu
Boots is absolutely right ... meds alone rarely are effective treatment. A multi-axis approach is almost always preferential. As with all such diseases, including substance abuse, it affects the entire family, (or family group, meaning anyone close to the patient), and all those affected should be a primary element of treatment and recovery.

Medication can be a very important part of treatment, but not the only part, and counseling, both individual and group, as well as family counseling, is just as vital. Nick brought up another very important fact, that if medication is not taken correctly, it will not be effective, and if it is something that has built up in a person's system over a period of two weeks or more, it should never be stopped abruptly, or it could cause very serious negative results.

I can tell you from a pharmaceutical and medical point of view, that the largest problem the medical and pharmaceutical professions face, is people not taking medication as prescribed by their doctors and following directions for follow-up care. People take madication until they "feel better", assuming their affliction must be gone.

It's very often the same with emotional/psychological problems, and unless medication is taken exactly as prescribed, and in conjunction with counseling and other forms of therapy, it will not affect a positive result. The majority of returning patients that we see at Emergency Rooms and Express Care locations, are the direct result of patients not having followed their discharge directions correctly, and not having taken their medication as prescribed.

It is extremely frustrating for the caregivers, and it also puts a very big strain on Healthcare in this country that needn't be there.

2010 PAPOUG, 2012 & 2017 PAPTYG CHAMP, HD BOT

* BAHKU MUSIC *