Author Topic: 2010 CB Draft: Central Division Press Conferences  (Read 84962 times)

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Re: 2010 CB Draft: Central Division Press Conferences
« Reply #165 on: September 01, 2010, 11:35:14 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Bulls forwards

Jaokim Noah 10.7 PPG, 11.0 RPG, 2.1 APG, 1.6 BPG, 0.5 SPG, PER 17.9
Ersan Ilyasova 10.4 PPG, 6.4 RPG, 1.0 APG, 0.7 BPG, 0.3 SPG, PER 15.7
Louis Amundson 4.7 PPG, 4.4 RPG, 0.4 APG, 0.9 BPG, 0.3 SPG, PER 13.1


Cavs Forward

Shaquille O'Neal 12.0 PPG, 6.7 RPG, 1.5 APG, 1.2 BPG, 0.3 SPG, PER 17.9

Zydrunas Ilgauskas 7.4 PPG, %.4 RPG, 0.8 APG, 0.8 BPG, 0.2 SPG PER 11.9

Anderson Varejao 8.5 PPG, 7.6 RPG, 1.1 APG, 0.0 SPG, 0.0 BPG, PER 15.8

JJ Hickson 8.5 PPG, 4.9 RPG, 0.5 APG, ).5 BPG, ).4 SPG, PER 15.2

Antawn Jamison 15.8 PPG, 7.7 RPG, 1.3 APG, 0.5 BPG 1.1 SPG, PER 16.7


Clearly these 5 players that LeBron played with this year are better than the three the Bulls have and a couple of rookie scrubs

And do I really have to go into the guards/wings

Bulls

Brandon jennings
Mike Miller
Tony Allen

Cavs

Mo Williams
Anthony Parker
Delonte West
Jamario Moon
Daniel Gibson


Sorry IP the supporting cast around LeBron was better and deeper and the depth mattered. If Noah gets in foul trouble or Mike Miller or Jennings, there's no one to bring in tht cn approximate what they do.

If you want I will show the guards and wings numbers but they are similar. They show the Cavs players having players statistically as good if not better than your Bulls players and more of them. That quality depth makes a difference.

As I said, LeBron will carry them, I just don't see him carrying them past Milwaukee or out of the second round of the playoffs. Especially the playoffs where the depth will matter in tighter called games and LeBron will show himself not to have that killer instinct, like he has his whole career in the playoffs.

Re: 2010 CB Draft: Central Division Press Conferences
« Reply #166 on: September 01, 2010, 11:38:36 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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ah nick I wwould love to have this debate with you but we both know we'll be having it in the playoffs again anyways. why ruin the fun early?

if you've got me in second place I will roll with that and sleep restless knowing you doubt my boys

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like that is always lethal." - Evan 'The God' Turner

Re: 2010 CB Draft: Central Division Press Conferences
« Reply #167 on: September 01, 2010, 11:41:53 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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but staring at my phone I want to reiterate I would love to have this debate. your numbers lack context and your comparisons are a little flat. who would've given me 1000 words

"You've gotta respect a 15-percent 3-point shooter. A guy
like that is always lethal." - Evan 'The God' Turner

Re: 2010 CB Draft: Central Division Press Conferences
« Reply #168 on: September 01, 2010, 11:45:48 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Sorry guy, I thought you asked me to show proof rather than just state opinion like fact, otherwise, I was content to let it slide until the playoffs.

See you there bud.

Re: 2010 CB Draft: Central Division Press Conferences
« Reply #169 on: September 01, 2010, 11:49:02 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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nick took it the right way, but let me just say the 1000 words thing wasn't a dig at him, it was meant tongue in cheek. nick can make a wall of text happen almost as well as I can. almost.

"You've gotta respect a 15-percent 3-point shooter. A guy
like that is always lethal." - Evan 'The God' Turner

Re: 2010 CB Draft: Central Division Press Conferences
« Reply #170 on: September 02, 2010, 12:13:56 AM »

Offline KCattheStripe

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These past 12 pages, this is why you trade down out of the first pick to a lower one in the top 5

Re: 2010 CB Draft: Central Division Press Conferences
« Reply #171 on: September 02, 2010, 12:31:06 AM »

Offline The Walker Wiggle

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Sorry IP the supporting cast around LeBron was better and deeper and the depth mattered. If Noah gets in foul trouble or Mike Miller or Jennings, there's no one to bring in that can approximate what they do.

If you want I will show the guards and wings numbers but they are similar. They show the Cavs players having players statistically as good if not better than your Bulls players and more of them. That quality depth makes a difference.

I've knocked the Bulls depth and will again. It's a legitimate gripe. Lou is not a passable third big as far as I'm concerned. (Some feel differently.) But it is possible to draw some other conclusions in comparing Lebron's supporting casts. Noah is a better rebounder, shot blocker, and far better help defender than anybody found in Cleveland's frontcourt last year - ideally the sort of play (along with low post scoring) that you want in a starting center.

Same with Jennings versus Mo Williams. He's already the better ball handler and playmaker and his scoring wing was John Salmons. He's also the better defender. And not for nothing but both are still making strides and should play better in 2010 than they did in 2009. (And RE: Jennings, isn't it statistically sound conventional wisdom that NBA players typically improve most between their rookie and sophomore seasons?)

But really I only picked a side in this fight as an excuse to discuss Noah's off-season cross-training.


Re: 2010 CB Draft: Central Division Press Conferences
« Reply #172 on: September 02, 2010, 12:56:03 AM »

Offline Edgar

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Re: 2010 CB Draft: Central Division Press Conferences
« Reply #173 on: September 02, 2010, 02:07:36 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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Link so you can see things easier

Methodology: I assembled each players per 48 minutes stats (from ESPN.com), then using excel I divided them all by 48 (excepting the FG%, 3pt%, and FT%), then multiplied them by the minutes anticipated.

Example: LeBron's FGA's every 48 minutes is 24.7, I would take that number and divide by 48 (equals .5148). That is his FG per minute rate. Then, I multiply that by the anticipated (rounded) minutes per game I have in my teams' strategy (38 minutes per game), which equals 19.6 FG's per game. To double check for accuracy, when compared against LeBron's actual 20.1 FG's over 39 minutes played in 2009-2010, it checks out.

Notes on my numbers/anticipated numbers:


-The rows labeled "NBA AVE" and "Cavs AVE" are the total averages of all 30 NBA teams, and the Cavs team averages for 09-10, respectively.  

-The only players with a substantial uptick in numbers are Ersan Ilyasova (23 to 29 MPG) and Brandon Jennings (32 to 36 MPG). This is important because the biggest problem with just using per 48 or per minute stats to extrapolate data is when you drastically change a players' minutes. Good example: In 2006/2007 Gerald Green played 22 MPG, but scored at a 22 points per 48 minutes rate. WOuld he have managed to continue that rate at 38 minutes per game? Because I kept players mostly within their current roles, I think the data is valid.

-The one place where you could call into account my projected production is Von Wafer. I had to use statistics from 2008-2009. His points per 48 is 23.9, which sets him in the company of Luke Ridnour, Rodney Stuckey, and Jerryd Bayless as far as scoring goes, which I think is about right considering Von Wafer is only going to be out there for 16 minutes per game (he played 19 MPG in 08-09).

-The FG, 3pt, and FT percentages for my team as a whole (as opposed to individually) are correctly weighted. To most people that won't matter, but to some, I'm sure it might.


Conclusions:


1) This comment from nick has rankled at me:

Quote
There you have it. A team that defensively will regularly keep teams under 90 points and will struggle to score 80 because teams will take away everything but LeBron and LeBron will have to average 50 points a game so that his team can score 90.

I don't think Nick could be more wrong here, and I think I proved it above. I managed to get to 101ppg, which is more than the average NBA team without drastically changing anyone's roles from things that they did last season. On top of that, I think that number is a considerable underestimation for the following reasons:
   a) I did not take into account any statistics from my rookies. I expect somewhere between 7-10 ppg combined between the 3 of them. I did not think it would be genuine to make up numbers though on players who have never played in an NBA game.
   b) I expect 12-15 points per night from Mike Miller. His FG's attempted per 48 were lower than everyone except Louis Amundson at 11.5 FGp48. (Amundson was 11.3). That will change, because Miller will be on a winning team, with a defined plan. Miller has been on losing teams that were non-competitive, and he's showed it in his play. LeBron should be able to convince him to shoot more, and with Jennings/LeBron creating shots for him instead of Shaun Livingston or Randy Foye, Miller should get a lot more open looks.
   c) LeBron James has historically created more open looks, esp 3pt shots, for his teammates than they have enjoyed before. Players who have improved their 3pt shooting % under LeBron: Mo Williams, Anthony Parker (but only by one percent or so), Delonte West
      -because in part of point 'c' and because Ilyasova will now have one complete year with the NBA 3 instead of the Euro 3, Ilyasova's 3pt % should jump up considerably, increasing his scoring.

2) So while it is true, LeBron will need to have another MVP-type season, the supporting cast I've put around him, despite being thin, is one that will ably play to his strengths. Before any kind of improvement from anyone on my roster, or any production at all from the 18 combined minutes I have my rookies playing, I've got my squad within a half a point of last season's cavs roster. With the modest and completely achievable improvements I anticipated above, my boys should easily exceed the Cavs production of 09-10. That's science.

Honestly, when you look at it in context, the whole picture, I think some people are making some poor assumptions. 1) I think some are over valuing the Cavs from last season. 2) I think some are undervaluing my team, because they're looking too hard at what they assume they CAN'T do, instead of looking honestly at what they've already proven they CAN do.  

"You've gotta respect a 15-percent 3-point shooter. A guy
like that is always lethal." - Evan 'The God' Turner

Re: 2010 CB Draft: Central Division Press Conferences
« Reply #174 on: September 02, 2010, 02:12:21 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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Any evidence that Mike Miller is all of a sudden going to bounce back after two subpar years in a row?  He's still efficient, but he's lost all aggression with his shot.

The projected stats you showed in your chart look reasonable enough to me, other than that I wouldn't expect to see Von Wafer average 8 points in 16 minutes.  I don't think he'll catch lightning in a bottle like that again, especially after a poor year in Greece.


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Re: 2010 CB Draft: Central Division Press Conferences
« Reply #175 on: September 02, 2010, 02:44:44 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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Any evidence that Mike Miller is all of a sudden going to bounce back after two subpar years in a row?  He's still efficient, but he's lost all aggression with his shot.

The projected stats you showed in your chart look reasonable enough to me.

I don't have evidence for Miller bouncing back, but I have some theories with some meat.
-the last time Mike Miller averaged above 15 PPG was in 2006-2007. That year the Memphis Grizzlies went 22-60.
-the previous 3 years the grizzlies had been playoff teams, with Miller averaging 12.7 points, capping out at 13.7 in the final year of the Griz's playoff runs.
-The year Miller averaged 18.5 (06-07) points, he was averaging 40 minutes per night on a team that had high preseason exceptions, but failed ultimately because of a myriad of factors, injuries being one.

I think that Miller kind of burned out after that year. The next year the Griz were miserable, he averaged 16 ppg, the next year he was traded to Minnesota, they were miserable, he averaged about 10 ppg.

I think Miller is just suffering from being a role player on a terrible team-itis. I think he can be a viable 3rd option on a winning team, and playing along side good friend LeBron James, on a team that honestly has no chance of having a losing record, ought to be enough to get him caring again.

It makes sense to me, but I'd like to hear your thoughts on this, Roy.

"You've gotta respect a 15-percent 3-point shooter. A guy
like that is always lethal." - Evan 'The God' Turner

Re: 2010 CB Draft: Central Division Press Conferences
« Reply #176 on: September 02, 2010, 02:52:58 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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I wouldn't expect to see Von Wafer average 8 points in 16 minutes.  I don't think he'll catch lightning in a bottle like that again, especially after a poor year in Greece.

That's a bit of a conundrum for me too, but here is my plan regarding Wafer.

I would play him as advertised above, give him his shot. I think him knowing this is his last chance to make an NBA roster is pretty good incentive to do everything within his power to return to form. If he doesn't, he doesn't. I will give his minutes to Landry Fields, who is a bit more versatile of a player.

Thoughts?

"You've gotta respect a 15-percent 3-point shooter. A guy
like that is always lethal." - Evan 'The God' Turner

Re: 2010 CB Draft: Central Division Press Conferences
« Reply #177 on: September 02, 2010, 03:40:24 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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Booooo for one response to my awesome excel skills.

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like that is always lethal." - Evan 'The God' Turner

Re: 2010 CB Draft: Central Division Press Conferences
« Reply #178 on: September 02, 2010, 03:50:56 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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Regarding my thoughts on Miller and Wafer...

I have no idea what's going on with Miller.  You would have thought that he'd jack up all kinds of shots on the bad teams he's been on.  I guess the big concern is 1) he's lost his aggressiveness, and 2) he has absolutely no ability to create for himself any more.  You worry that he's turned into Jason Kapono.

As for Wafer, I think he'll always be an offensive-oriented player, but I'm skeptical that he can stay on a hot streak over an entire season.  I see him having ups and downs like Eddie House does; either he's on or he's not.


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Re: 2010 CB Draft: Central Division Press Conferences
« Reply #179 on: September 02, 2010, 03:52:18 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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I think you make a compelling case.

I'll bump you up to 60-62 wins. (I had you around 56-58)

Post season matchups could be trouble though.