Posey on the move

[Maine Celtics Fan]

Not sure if you guys have already settled this or not...

Look at the old stats on 82 games.  

'06 - '07 http://www.82games.com/0607/06IND17C.HTM
'05 - '06 http://www.82games.com/0506/05IND13C.HTM
'04 - '05 http://www.82games.com/04IND15C.HTM
'03 - '04 http://www.82games.com/03IND13C.HTM
'02 - '03 http://www.82games.com/02IND13C.HTM

Split his time between PF and C pretty evenly - and in the earlier years, tended to play a bit more at the 4.  In Miami, he's strictly been playing the 5, but Miami's also not had many other (non-decomposing) centers on the roster (as well as Haslem and Beasley getting most of the minutes at the 4).

Jermaine O'Neil absolutely has played a LOT of power forward in his career, unless you distrust the stats at 82games there really isn't much to debate.

Thanks for the homework -- I have no doubt J O'Neal will get time at the 4.  Still in favor of trading Baby for a backup 3 with value!

[kozlodoev]

Thanks for the homework -- I have no doubt J O'Neal will get time at the 4.  Still in favor of trading Baby for a backup 3 with value!

Right, because going into the season 3-deep in the big man position is such a formidable idea. It means we're 1 injury away from Luke Harangody being your backup C.

[BballTim]

Thanks for the homework -- I have no doubt J O'Neal will get time at the 4.  Still in favor of trading Baby for a backup 3 with value!

Right, because going into the season 3-deep in the big man position is such a formidable idea. It means we're 1 injury away from Luke Harangody being your backup C.

  C'mon. These guys all look pretty durable. What could go wrong?

[guava_wrench]

sounds good...love it

but not too sure about the rush and baby comparison?

lets forget posey for a moment, would you guys trade for rush with baby?

Had to do a little hw on Rush since we don't see many Pacers games in Bangor, Maine  A 6'6" guard is never a bad thing, but what about his defense?  Can he play the 3?

When Perk comes back, we have 5 legit PF-C guys.  I would trade Baby for a need in a heartbeat.

We only have 2 legit NBA PFs -- Garnett and Baby. O'Neal is strictly a C. The other O'Neal is strictly a C. Perk is strictly a C. Harangody has never played in the NBA.

Baby IS a need. He's a key rotation player who plays up in big games.

I am not for trading BBD, but Jermaine O'Neal can absolutely play PF... he has done it for a number of years. He, like Duncan, is just big enough to play C for a team and will if he is asked to. Why would he not be able to play PF?


And forget Posey.  He is not going to be bought out and he has a terrible contract.  He is a shell of his former self.  I hope he enjoyed his pay day, but his years in Green are past.

When has JO ever played PF? For what team, and against which player? The guy is a true C. That's the position he plays.

He played PF for Indiana, Jeff Foster was really the teams C.  He has always been a PF/C, meaning PF first.  He made All-Star teams and All-NBA teams under the Forward label.


He is just big enough to play C.  His true position is PF.  He absolutely is not a "true C", that's for sure.

I completely disagree with you. His true position is not PF. I've not a single recollection of him defneding / being defended by a PF.

Regardless, he's certainly not capable of playing PF in the present day NBA for any meaningful amount of time. He's not a good solution for a departed Glen Davis.

Not sure if you guys have already settled this or not...

Look at the old stats on 82 games.  

'06 - '07 http://www.82games.com/0607/06IND17C.HTM
'05 - '06 http://www.82games.com/0506/05IND13C.HTM
'04 - '05 http://www.82games.com/04IND15C.HTM
'03 - '04 http://www.82games.com/03IND13C.HTM
'02 - '03 http://www.82games.com/02IND13C.HTM

Split his time between PF and C pretty evenly - and in the earlier years, tended to play a bit more at the 4.  In Miami, he's strictly been playing the 5, but Miami's also not had many other (non-decomposing) centers on the roster (as well as Haslem and Beasley getting most of the minutes at the 4).

Jermaine O'Neil absolutely has played a LOT of power forward in his career, unless you distrust the stats at 82games there really isn't much to debate.

Did he arrive in Indy early enough to play alongside Smits?

[Who]

If he got waived I'd love him here. With Granger, George, Dunleavy and Jones already on the squad, whats the point?

Are Indiana planning on switching Danny Granger to the power forward position?

The Pacers played him a lot at the four last season and usually played better with him at that position than out on the wing (due to their flawed roster rather than Danny being better suited as a four).

Starters: Collison + George + Dunleavy + Granger + Hibbert
Rotation: Backup PG + Rush + Posey + Hansbrough + Foster

Was that part of the reason Granger seemed to regress last year?

Posey'll play PF for Indiana.  Classic O'bie 4.  They'll need him there, with Murphy gone and with Hansbrough apparently still suffering from vertigo.  Even if Granger plays some at the 4, they don't have an abundance of depth there.

No, not really. Granger just didn't shoot the ball as well last season as the year before (struggled a bit in the early part of the season, finished strongly though) + more importantly his teammates, his supporting cast, took a major step back.

Granger didn't play that much worse ... it was mostly his teammates.

The lack of quickness from his big men which left them exposed all over the court, the lack of rebounding especially when Granger was forced to play the four to compensate for their bigs lack of quickness and their lack of shooting which allowed teams to camp out in the paint and force ineffective shooters to hoist jump shots. And their recent draft picks inability (Hansbrough, Hibbert, Rush) to handle their workloads. Those were the four main reasons for Indiana falling off last season.

Danny Granger played at a level fairly similar to the year before (bit worse on his shooting). It was just that everything around him went to hell.

-------------------------------------------------

Danny Granger played just as well offensively as usual as a power forward (shooting percentages + scoring numbers + assists were comparable, turnovers improved) and his defense at the position was about as good as at the three with the exception of keeping his opponent off the glass. He did a nice job on the team defense (compared to his inadequate overly slow/immobile big men) and did a solid job in one-on-one defense too.

Granger is a below average rebounder for a small forward so he was picked apart at the four. He was particularly exposed on the boards because of the Pacers lack of quality rebounders at the other four positions on the court while at the four slot. Brandon Rush was their only quality perimeter rebounder (solid rather than exceptional) and T.Murphy (Foster's injury hurt here + big man defense) were their only good rebounders in the rotation.

Not enough help to hide Granger's lack of rebounding ... unlike Orlando with Rashard Lewis because of a dominant rebounder like Dwight Howard and high quality rebounding wings like Vince Carter and Matt Barnes.

[xmuscularghandix]

From the Celticsblog.com home page:

Update: James Posey's agent, Mark Bartelstein, tells SI.com that Posey will not seek a buyout from the Pacers.

How reliable is this, and could this be agent posturing?

Could be.  But also, as I said above, I don't think Posey has a huge desire to be bought out.  This is likely his last big contract and he already has two rings.  He's not going to be willing to give up much.  

I tend to agree.  If Posey valued winning over millions of dollars, he would have re-signed with the Celts.  Instead, he decided for an extra year of security; why sacrifice that now?

It wasn’t the money he valued, It was the length of the contract. Posey wanted more security.

[Snakehead]

sounds good...love it

but not too sure about the rush and baby comparison?

lets forget posey for a moment, would you guys trade for rush with baby?

Had to do a little hw on Rush since we don't see many Pacers games in Bangor, Maine  A 6'6" guard is never a bad thing, but what about his defense?  Can he play the 3?

When Perk comes back, we have 5 legit PF-C guys.  I would trade Baby for a need in a heartbeat.

We only have 2 legit NBA PFs -- Garnett and Baby. O'Neal is strictly a C. The other O'Neal is strictly a C. Perk is strictly a C. Harangody has never played in the NBA.

Baby IS a need. He's a key rotation player who plays up in big games.

I am not for trading BBD, but Jermaine O'Neal can absolutely play PF... he has done it for a number of years. He, like Duncan, is just big enough to play C for a team and will if he is asked to. Why would he not be able to play PF?


And forget Posey.  He is not going to be bought out and he has a terrible contract.  He is a shell of his former self.  I hope he enjoyed his pay day, but his years in Green are past.

When has JO ever played PF? For what team, and against which player? The guy is a true C. That's the position he plays.

He played PF for Indiana, Jeff Foster was really the teams C.  He has always been a PF/C, meaning PF first.  He made All-Star teams and All-NBA teams under the Forward label.


He is just big enough to play C.  His true position is PF.  He absolutely is not a "true C", that's for sure.

I completely disagree with you. His true position is not PF. I've not a single recollection of him defneding / being defended by a PF.

Regardless, he's certainly not capable of playing PF in the present day NBA for any meaningful amount of time. He's not a good solution for a departed Glen Davis.

Not sure if you guys have already settled this or not...

Look at the old stats on 82 games.  

'06 - '07 http://www.82games.com/0607/06IND17C.HTM
'05 - '06 http://www.82games.com/0506/05IND13C.HTM
'04 - '05 http://www.82games.com/04IND15C.HTM
'03 - '04 http://www.82games.com/03IND13C.HTM
'02 - '03 http://www.82games.com/02IND13C.HTM

Split his time between PF and C pretty evenly - and in the earlier years, tended to play a bit more at the 4.  In Miami, he's strictly been playing the 5, but Miami's also not had many other (non-decomposing) centers on the roster (as well as Haslem and Beasley getting most of the minutes at the 4).

Jermaine O'Neil absolutely has played a LOT of power forward in his career, unless you distrust the stats at 82games there really isn't much to debate.

I didn't get to post in return, thanks for doing my work for me.  You don't get labeled as a PF in almost all your official labeling for All-NBA teams, Defensive MVP, and All-Star teams without playing it.  He has the PF skills, can shoot and everything, he's just a big dude that can bang at the C position just fine.

[Bankshot]

From the Celticsblog.com home page:

Update: James Posey's agent, Mark Bartelstein, tells SI.com that Posey will not seek a buyout from the Pacers.

How reliable is this, and could this be agent posturing?

Could be.  But also, as I said above, I don't think Posey has a huge desire to be bought out.  This is likely his last big contract and he already has two rings.  He's not going to be willing to give up much.  

I tend to agree.  If Posey valued winning over millions of dollars, he would have re-signed with the Celts.  Instead, he decided for an extra year of security; why sacrifice that now?

It wasn’t the money he valued, It was the length of the contract. Posey wanted more security.

I think it was the money too.  More money came with more years.

[jayk009]

Larry Bird traditionally is against doing buyouts. He held out Jamaal Tinsley for the longest time before reluctantly agreeing to buy him out.

[ssspence]

sounds good...love it

but not too sure about the rush and baby comparison?

lets forget posey for a moment, would you guys trade for rush with baby?

Had to do a little hw on Rush since we don't see many Pacers games in Bangor, Maine  A 6'6" guard is never a bad thing, but what about his defense?  Can he play the 3?

When Perk comes back, we have 5 legit PF-C guys.  I would trade Baby for a need in a heartbeat.

We only have 2 legit NBA PFs -- Garnett and Baby. O'Neal is strictly a C. The other O'Neal is strictly a C. Perk is strictly a C. Harangody has never played in the NBA.

Baby IS a need. He's a key rotation player who plays up in big games.

I am not for trading BBD, but Jermaine O'Neal can absolutely play PF... he has done it for a number of years. He, like Duncan, is just big enough to play C for a team and will if he is asked to. Why would he not be able to play PF?


And forget Posey.  He is not going to be bought out and he has a terrible contract.  He is a shell of his former self.  I hope he enjoyed his pay day, but his years in Green are past.

When has JO ever played PF? For what team, and against which player? The guy is a true C. That's the position he plays.

He played PF for Indiana, Jeff Foster was really the teams C.  He has always been a PF/C, meaning PF first.  He made All-Star teams and All-NBA teams under the Forward label.


He is just big enough to play C.  His true position is PF.  He absolutely is not a "true C", that's for sure.

I completely disagree with you. His true position is not PF. I've not a single recollection of him defneding / being defended by a PF.

Regardless, he's certainly not capable of playing PF in the present day NBA for any meaningful amount of time. He's not a good solution for a departed Glen Davis.

Not sure if you guys have already settled this or not...

Look at the old stats on 82 games.  

'06 - '07 http://www.82games.com/0607/06IND17C.HTM
'05 - '06 http://www.82games.com/0506/05IND13C.HTM
'04 - '05 http://www.82games.com/04IND15C.HTM
'03 - '04 http://www.82games.com/03IND13C.HTM
'02 - '03 http://www.82games.com/02IND13C.HTM

Split his time between PF and C pretty evenly - and in the earlier years, tended to play a bit more at the 4.  In Miami, he's strictly been playing the 5, but Miami's also not had many other (non-decomposing) centers on the roster (as well as Haslem and Beasley getting most of the minutes at the 4).

Jermaine O'Neil absolutely has played a LOT of power forward in his career, unless you distrust the stats at 82games there really isn't much to debate.

I didn't get to post in return, thanks for doing my work for me.  You don't get labeled as a PF in almost all your official labeling for All-NBA teams, Defensive MVP, and All-Star teams without playing it.  He has the PF skills, can shoot and everything, he's just a big dude that can bang at the C position just fine.

Let's start with the Eastern Conference -- who is JO going to defend at the 4 of the following? Amare Stoudemire, Troy Murphy, Boris Diaw, Andre Blatche / Yi, Josh Smith, Carlos Boozer, Antawn Jamison, Charlie Villenueva, Chris Bosh, Drew Gooden / Ilyasova, Amir Johnson, Rashard Lewis and Elton Brand? Brand is the only possibility on the list because he plays almost exclusively in the post and moves like he's 62 years old.

JO gets injured more often than Snooki tweets. He's going to start at C AND back-up KG, someone we also have to monitor for injury and wear?

The premise of this conversation was whether Baby could be moved without any replacement at the 4. At some point is this conversation going to get serious or are we going to remain in neverneverland?

[Snakehead]

sounds good...love it

but not too sure about the rush and baby comparison?

lets forget posey for a moment, would you guys trade for rush with baby?

Had to do a little hw on Rush since we don't see many Pacers games in Bangor, Maine   A 6'6" guard is never a bad thing, but what about his defense?  Can he play the 3?

When Perk comes back, we have 5 legit PF-C guys.  I would trade Baby for a need in a heartbeat.

We only have 2 legit NBA PFs -- Garnett and Baby. O'Neal is strictly a C. The other O'Neal is strictly a C. Perk is strictly a C. Harangody has never played in the NBA.

Baby IS a need. He's a key rotation player who plays up in big games.

I am not for trading BBD, but Jermaine O'Neal can absolutely play PF... he has done it for a number of years. He, like Duncan, is just big enough to play C for a team and will if he is asked to. Why would he not be able to play PF?


And forget Posey.  He is not going to be bought out and he has a terrible contract.  He is a shell of his former self.  I hope he enjoyed his pay day, but his years in Green are past.

When has JO ever played PF? For what team, and against which player? The guy is a true C. That's the position he plays.

He played PF for Indiana, Jeff Foster was really the teams C.  He has always been a PF/C, meaning PF first.  He made All-Star teams and All-NBA teams under the Forward label.


He is just big enough to play C.  His true position is PF.  He absolutely is not a "true C", that's for sure.

I completely disagree with you. His true position is not PF. I've not a single recollection of him defneding / being defended by a PF.

Regardless, he's certainly not capable of playing PF in the present day NBA for any meaningful amount of time. He's not a good solution for a departed Glen Davis.

Not sure if you guys have already settled this or not...

Look at the old stats on 82 games. 

'06 - '07 http://www.82games.com/0607/06IND17C.HTM
'05 - '06 http://www.82games.com/0506/05IND13C.HTM
'04 - '05 http://www.82games.com/04IND15C.HTM
'03 - '04 http://www.82games.com/03IND13C.HTM
'02 - '03 http://www.82games.com/02IND13C.HTM

Split his time between PF and C pretty evenly - and in the earlier years, tended to play a bit more at the 4.  In Miami, he's strictly been playing the 5, but Miami's also not had many other (non-decomposing) centers on the roster (as well as Haslem and Beasley getting most of the minutes at the 4).

Jermaine O'Neil absolutely has played a LOT of power forward in his career, unless you distrust the stats at 82games there really isn't much to debate.

I didn't get to post in return, thanks for doing my work for me.  You don't get labeled as a PF in almost all your official labeling for All-NBA teams, Defensive MVP, and All-Star teams without playing it.  He has the PF skills, can shoot and everything, he's just a big dude that can bang at the C position just fine.

Let's start with the Eastern Conference -- who is JO going to defend at the 4 of the following? Amare Stoudemire, Troy Murphy, Boris Diaw, Andre Blatche / Yi, Josh Smith, Carlos Boozer, Antawn Jamison, Charlie Villenueva, Chris Bosh, Drew Gooden / Ilyasova, Amir Johnson, Rashard Lewis and Elton Brand? Brand is the only possibility on the list because he plays almost exclusively in the post and moves like he's 62 years old.

JO gets injured more often than Snooki tweets. He's going to start at C AND back-up KG, someone we also have to monitor for injury and wear?

The premise of this conversation was whether Baby could be moved without any replacement at the 4. At some point is this conversation going to get serious or are we going to remain in neverneverland?

Actually the conversation was whether Jermaine has played PF and could play PF, which is a yes he has and can.  To quote my original post you responded to:

"I am not for trading BBD, but Jermaine O'Neal can absolutely play PF... he has done it for a number of years"

So as you can see I am not in favor of trading Big Baby.

And that was a funny list, some mediocre dudes on there that you really think Jermaine couldn't hang with?  Jermaine has slowed down over the years, but seriously, he can't cover  Jamison?  Yi?  Drew Gooden? Troy Smith?  Even if they play on the perimiter I'm sure he can cover them. And even with the better ones you named, he could D up Amare and Boozer and Bosh too.  And the weaker, more perimeter oriented guys he would PUNISH inside on offense, they would be awesome mistmatches for us.  I'd love to see them put Jamison or Drew Gooden or Yi on Jermaine, he'd kill them.  Is Baby really a better matchup on a lot of those guys too?  Especially the perimeter oriented ones, they can shoot over him.

Also taking into consideration Jermaine has a nice short-medium range jumper... not sure what he doesn't have that makes him unable to play PF.  Yes, he has slowed and is more suited to the C position probably but he still can play the PF for us.

[ssspence]

sounds good...love it

but not too sure about the rush and baby comparison?

lets forget posey for a moment, would you guys trade for rush with baby?

Had to do a little hw on Rush since we don't see many Pacers games in Bangor, Maine   A 6'6" guard is never a bad thing, but what about his defense?  Can he play the 3?

When Perk comes back, we have 5 legit PF-C guys.  I would trade Baby for a need in a heartbeat.

We only have 2 legit NBA PFs -- Garnett and Baby. O'Neal is strictly a C. The other O'Neal is strictly a C. Perk is strictly a C. Harangody has never played in the NBA.

Baby IS a need. He's a key rotation player who plays up in big games.

Snakehead -- here was where this started. It's about Baby for Rush. Much as I like Rush, I say no without a contingency plan that doesn't include relying on JO at the 4 -- particularly when he needs to play the 5 on this team.

Meanwhile, I think you misunderstand where JO is at in his career. You actully compared him to Duncan, which is laughable at any stage of his career, muchless when he's got 14 NBA seasons on his treads. His value to the Cs is on D, not in abusing opponents offensively. I got a good snicker out of that one. If he could, why wouldn't he have done it in Miami or Toronto? That ship has long since sailed.

Regardless of the semantic debate about how good / bad / capable O'neal is at this point in his career, he's not going to play major minutes at the 4 for the Celtics this season barring desparate measures due to injury.

[clover]

"JO gets injured more often than Snooki tweets."

Good line!  But all those old guys need to be discounted for injuries--that's why we could even use Scal coaching as a spare.

[xmuscularghandix]

From the Celticsblog.com home page:

Update: James Posey's agent, Mark Bartelstein, tells SI.com that Posey will not seek a buyout from the Pacers.

How reliable is this, and could this be agent posturing?

Could be.  But also, as I said above, I don't think Posey has a huge desire to be bought out.  This is likely his last big contract and he already has two rings.  He's not going to be willing to give up much.  

I tend to agree.  If Posey valued winning over millions of dollars, he would have re-signed with the Celts.  Instead, he decided for an extra year of security; why sacrifice that now?

It wasn’t the money he valued, It was the length of the contract. Posey wanted more security.

But you still get paid in a “buy out”

So he’d still be getting whatever they agree on, then whatever money from his new deal.

[Who]

Jermaine O'Neal can still play the four in a power lineup. Shaq gives them that option.

O'Neal can also function as a capable backup power forward since most team's backup PFs are more limited offensively and in terms of athleticism. Making it difficult for one of them to create a matchup advantage against Jermaine + allowing Jermaine to spend more time closer to the rim defensively than he would against starters. Giving Boston two shot blockers.

Otherwise, and particularly when used as a starter, Jermaine O'Neal is an out and out center.