Shaq and Garnett...I'll be the one to say it

[manl_lui]

Few things

- Kevin Garnett is no longer the best defensive PF in the game. That is Anderson Varejao.

anderson varejina can kiss my a$$

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUDAvvN__30

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyZowxARDCA

yeh i hate anderson varejao too and his stupid hair...god i hate him as much as i hate sasha vuja"chick"

KG now being 1.5 years removed from surgery will make varejao look silly

[housecall]

Anderson V.is not even in the top 5 pf in the league...he does one thing well,annoy.

[KungPoweChicken]

A "healthy" Perk and "healthy" Garnett are the best big man combo in the league and we proved that up until Perk's injury  .

Maybe we could say this if Perkins knew how to not travel with the ball once in every five possessions, if Perkins knew how to know get his shot blocked in the paint by forwards and guards, and if Perkins knew how to throw a basic chest pass to the Celtics and not the opposing team.

  No, we can say it anyways.

That won't make it right.

[Snakehead]

Anderson V.is not even in the top 5 pf in the league...he does one thing well,annoy.

Not overall but he made All-NBA defense for a reason.  I think healthy KG is a better defender but Varejao is not far off.  He's a very good defender.

[BballTim]

A "healthy" Perk and "healthy" Garnett are the best big man combo in the league and we proved that up until Perk's injury  .

Maybe we could say this if Perkins knew how to not travel with the ball once in every five possessions, if Perkins knew how to know get his shot blocked in the paint by forwards and guards, and if Perkins knew how to throw a basic chest pass to the Celtics and not the opposing team.

  No, we can say it anyways.

That won't make it right.

  Saying it won't make it right, I agree with you there. But it's right whether we say it or not. Perk turning the ball over twice a game and getting blocked once a game or so doesn't drown out all the good things he does.

[ThaPreacher]

A "healthy" Perk and "healthy" Garnett are the best big man combo in the league and we proved that up until Perk's injury  .

True at times.  But riddle me this?  How did you feel about
Gasol/Bynum.  Their length neutralized Perk.  They cannot do that to Shaq or JO.  O'Neal will be Shaqalicious.  And J.O.
will remind us of who he was prior to fight-night at the Palace.

[drza44]

Few things

- Kevin Garnett is no longer the best defensive PF in the game. That is Anderson Varejao.

- Shaq will not be starting as has been made clear by the Celtics announcement of Shaq agreeing to a contract and that he has agreed to coming off the bench for the first time in his career

- Just because KG and Shaq can be dominant for very short periods doesn't translate to 48 minutes of good things happening for the Boston Celtics. What has to be taken into consideration is what can be expected of them in the long term and on the average, not what they might be able to do once a week or once every two weeks for half a game or so. yes it will be entertaining watching them when they are "every bit as good once as they ever were" but all that gives us is a glimpse of what could have been once upon a time and not what we should expect to get regularly.

- KG playing 30 minutes and being healthy the whole year is good for the Celtics. Shaq playing 15-20 minutes a night as a back up center and staying healthy the entire year is a good thing for the Celtics. But let's keep our expectations of what to expect from these two former greats and future Hall of Famers grounded. Yes there will be night, probably few and far between when they amaze us but more realistically, they will be just to cogs in a greater machine that play their parts to make the whole better.

A few responses.

-Disagree whole-heartedly.  Varejao, IMO, is similar to  PF version of Perk.  Very good defensive role player, can fit well into a system.  KG, on the other hand, can still have the system built around him.  And I think last year in the postseason we clearly saw the difference between the two.

-Shaq starting...I'm still in we'll see mode.  I've been following the announcements as closely as anyone else, but I haven't heard Doc officially say that Shaq would be the back-up or that Jermaine will start.

-I disagree with your assessment of what KG and Shaq can do.  I don't expect them to have a good game once per week or two then be bad else.  I expect their baseline to be, much like KG/Perk has been, on average as good as any other frontline pairing in the league.  The difference is, I think Shaq gives the potential for another gear that Perk can't reach.  And that's the point of this thread.  That the ceiling for this ballclub has been raised, possibly significantly, because I'm not as convinced that KG/Shaq can't still be special as most are.

-I agree that KG and Shaq staying health are important for the team.  I don't agree that Shaq has to be the back-up, but if that's what Doc and crew come up with that's still fine because I think KG/Jermaine will be a strong group as well and we've already seen what KG/Perk can do if Perk is able to make it back this year.  But I haven't seen anything in recent years to suggest that Shaq isn't capable of 25-30 minutes per game, and I think that the KG/Shaq pairing would yield the best team results.  And I think that'll be made clear once the season begins.

I guess I just don't see what the purpose is in "grounding my expectations", when the whole purpose of the thread was for me to point out that I believe the currently held general expectations are too low.

[drza44]

they are both pretty severely washed up.   LIke putting Toronto Hakeem with Sonics Ewing.

We shall see.  I'd liken Shaq more to David Robinson of 2002 or 2003, and I just think your flat way off the mark on KG.  Bug again, we'll see.

[LarBrd33]

they are both pretty severely washed up.   LIke putting Toronto Hakeem with Sonics Ewing.

We shall see.  I'd liken Shaq more to David Robinson of 2002 or 2003, and I just think your flat way off the mark on KG.  Bug again, we'll see.

Come on... KG's 14 and 7 was about equal to Jermaine O'Neal last year (another washed up big man).   Those numbers are just going to dive more this year.  KG is old.

Shaq averaged 12 and 6 as a starter... getting bench minutes means he'll probably average 6 and 3 on this team.

I imagine KG will put up numbers equal to Ewing on the SOnics... while Shaq might put up Raptors Hakeem numbers.   

[Fafnir]

Anderson V.is not even in the top 5 pf in the league...he does one thing well,annoy.

He's a top 5 defensive PF.

[housecall]

Anderson V.is not even in the top 5 pf in the league...he does one thing well,annoy.

He's a top 5 defensive PF.

I said top 5 in the league(NBA)today...nothing was mentioned about defense only.Defense is only one side of the ball.Im well aware of his defensive skills.  

[housecall]

Anderson V.is not even in the top 5 pf in the league...he does one thing well,annoy.

Not overall but he made All-NBA defense for a reason.  I think healthy KG is a better defender but Varejao is not far off.  He's a very good defender.

Overall is what i said,the entire package.I know all about Andy's defensive skills.

[Fafnir]

Anderson V.is not even in the top 5 pf in the league...he does one thing well,annoy.

He's a top 5 defensive PF.

I said top 5 in the league(NBA)today...nothing was mentioned about defense only.Defense is only one side of the ball.Im well aware of his defensive skills.  

Well you were responding to this:

- Kevin Garnett is no longer the best defensive PF in the game. That is Anderson Varejao.

Which is why I corrected you, I see you went back and re-read the thread, hence your edit.

BTW I disagree with Nick, KG is still a better defender than AV. His rebounding is now inferior to AV's though, and his offense is getting closer to AV's as well.

[j804]

Few things

- Kevin Garnett is no longer the best defensive PF in the game. That is Anderson Varejao.

- Shaq will not be starting as has been made clear by the Celtics announcement of Shaq agreeing to a contract and that he has agreed to coming off the bench for the first time in his career

- Just because KG and Shaq can be dominant for very short periods doesn't translate to 48 minutes of good things happening for the Boston Celtics. What has to be taken into consideration is what can be expected of them in the long term and on the average, not what they might be able to do once a week or once every two weeks for half a game or so. yes it will be entertaining watching them when they are "every bit as good once as they ever were" but all that gives us is a glimpse of what could have been once upon a time and not what we should expect to get regularly.

- KG playing 30 minutes and being healthy the whole year is good for the Celtics. Shaq playing 15-20 minutes a night as a back up center and staying healthy the entire year is a good thing for the Celtics. But let's keep our expectations of what to expect from these two former greats and future Hall of Famers grounded. Yes there will be night, probably few and far between when they amaze us but more realistically, they will be just to cogs in a greater machine that play their parts to make the whole better.

Agree with everything except this.  KG when healthy like 2short said still is the best defensive power forward in the game and it's not even close because the power forward spot does not have many good defenders at all.

Bay area rapper Too Short said this, where?

[drza44]

they are both pretty severely washed up.   LIke putting Toronto Hakeem with Sonics Ewing.

We shall see.  I'd liken Shaq more to David Robinson of 2002 or 2003, and I just think your flat way off the mark on KG.  Bug again, we'll see.

Come on... KG's 14 and 7 was about equal to Jermaine O'Neal last year (another washed up big man).   Those numbers are just going to dive more this year.  KG is old.

Shaq averaged 12 and 6 as a starter... getting bench minutes means he'll probably average 6 and 3 on this team.

I imagine KG will put up numbers equal to Ewing on the SOnics... while Shaq might put up Raptors Hakeem numbers.   

:Shrugs: I don't think their impacts are measured only in points and rebounds.  For example, in last year's playoffs:

KG scored 16.2 points on 49.5% FG with 1.5 TOs per 36 minutes. 

Meanwhile, his primary defensive assignments (Beasley, Jamison, Lewis, and Gasol) averaged 9 points on 36% FG with 2.3 TOs per 36 minutes when he was guarding them (523 total minutes). 

Those same 4 guys averaged 20.6 points on 53.4% FG with 1.5 TOs per 36 minutes against Boston when KG wasn't on them (234 minutes). And they averaged 18.2 points on 53.7% FG and 1.8 TOs per 36 minutes in the 2010 postseason when they weren't playing Boston.

In other words, KG took 4 guys that scored a lot on great percentages against other teams (and even against the Celtics when he was on the bench) and shut them out of the scoreboards.

And that's not even mentioning KG's team defensive impact, where the 2010 Celtics postseason defense with KG suddenly looked eerily similar to the 2008 Celtics postseason defense and absolutely nothing like 2009 Celtics defense without him.

Similarly, I don't expect Shaq to suddenly come in here and average 20 and 10 again.  But if he starts, I expect that the team offense will suddenly start working better.  Efficiency will be up, scoring will be up, and scoring droughts on the first unit will decrease.  Now it may be Rondo or Pierce that gets the credit for this because they likely will lead the team in scoring and assists again.  But the underlying difference from years past will be the threat of 2 bigs as skilled and still difficult to defend as KG and Shaq on one frontline.

I could care less what their averages are, and I haven't even spent much ink on Jermaine who I was also pretty excited about before Shaq signed.  But I think the 2010-11 Celtics are going to surprise a lot of people this year, and I'm counting down the days until the season starts and I can watch it pan out.