I think we're on a collision course with Shaq

[BballTim]

That is true, but considering the starters don't have the same ability to score at will as they once had a true post player who would demand a double team might do them a lot of good.

No-one double-teams Shaq anymore. People play him straight up, and hack him if necessary. He also doesn't have the ability to "score at will" anymore.

While Shaq has clearly fallen far from his peak, I don't know why it's necessary to keep making this point.

Last regular season, Shaq scored 12 points a game on 8.7 shots and 4.2 free throw attempts.  Sheed scored 9 points in 8.2 shots and 1.5 free throw attempts.  Perk scored 10.1 points in 6.4 shots and 3.5 free throw attempts.  So, Shaq last year was clearly more productive than Sheed because he drew fouls and got to the line.  BUT Shaq was clearly less efficient than Perk, which shouldn't be surprising because Shaq gets most of his own points while Perk scores a lot of layups set up by other players.

In the playoffs, however, Shaq scored 11.5 points in 8.4 shots and 4.2 free throw attempts.  Sheed scored 6.1 points on 5.2 shots and 1.2 free throw attempts.  Perk scored 5.7 points on 4.1 shots and 2.3 fre throw attempts.  While both Sheed and Perk's production and offensive efficiency dramatically declined in the playoffs, Shaq remained largely the same in both areas.

Shaq is a more effective and reliable scorer than either Perk or Sheed.

Mike

  Perk took fewer shots in the playoffs but he was playing on a gimpy knee, wasn't he? And his efficiency in the playoffs is almost the same as Shaq's. It's also worth pointing out that Shaq gets set up for layups playing with LeBron the same way Perk does on the Celts.

[Jon]

As I have said before, Shaq on a minimum contract is a good thing but signing and trading for him on a three year contract(yes, I know only the first has to be guaranteed) is foolhardy in my opinion.

Rasheed's contract is more valuable than to get just Shaq. Also, if he isn't a good fit chemistry wise, you don't want to be paying him multiple millions of dollars to sit at the end of the bench and gripe or have to eat because you have to cut him.

Honestly, I think once Charlotte doesn't pick up the option on Erick Dampier's contract, that trying to pick him up would be a great move.

But if you think a minimum deal is OK, assuming that we have no other suitors for Wallace, what's the harm of Shaq on a one year deal for Wallace?  You're not paying his salary and it won't hurt the team long term.  

[Kane3387]

That is true, but considering the starters don't have the same ability to score at will as they once had a true post player who would demand a double team might do them a lot of good.

No-one double-teams Shaq anymore. People play him straight up, and hack him if necessary. He also doesn't have the ability to "score at will" anymore.

That is true when he is 10-12 feet from the basket, but not farther down low. Shaq doesn't have outside touch anymore, but if he is within 5-7 feet of the rim teams will double or foul. It would be nice with the free throw prowess of Ray, PP, and even KG to have some more free throws a little earlier in the penalty than we have had. Even if he misses half his free throws (which Perk isn't much better at either) he gets teams in the penalty. He also finishes hard at the rim which we don't do. Perk and BBD are not hard finishers. Neither is Jermaine. As long as he is willing to accept his role the guy is going to help.

Rondo and his penetration will draw help from the bigs. The only pg Shaq ever played with similar to Rajon was Nash. Nashe helped Shaq get easy baskets. Shaq played his best ball in the last 4-5 years while he was in Phoenix with Nash. that is not a coincidence. At the right price Shaq is a good fit for us because the lower the price the lower the expectations.

[MBunge]

That is true, but considering the starters don't have the same ability to score at will as they once had a true post player who would demand a double team might do them a lot of good.

No-one double-teams Shaq anymore. People play him straight up, and hack him if necessary. He also doesn't have the ability to "score at will" anymore.

While Shaq has clearly fallen far from his peak, I don't know why it's necessary to keep making this point.

Last regular season, Shaq scored 12 points a game on 8.7 shots and 4.2 free throw attempts.  Sheed scored 9 points in 8.2 shots and 1.5 free throw attempts.  Perk scored 10.1 points in 6.4 shots and 3.5 free throw attempts.  So, Shaq last year was clearly more productive than Sheed because he drew fouls and got to the line.  BUT Shaq was clearly less efficient than Perk, which shouldn't be surprising because Shaq gets most of his own points while Perk scores a lot of layups set up by other players.

In the playoffs, however, Shaq scored 11.5 points in 8.4 shots and 4.2 free throw attempts.  Sheed scored 6.1 points on 5.2 shots and 1.2 free throw attempts.  Perk scored 5.7 points on 4.1 shots and 2.3 fre throw attempts.  While both Sheed and Perk's production and offensive efficiency dramatically declined in the playoffs, Shaq remained largely the same in both areas.

Shaq is a more effective and reliable scorer than either Perk or Sheed.

Mike

Hello Mike. Thanks for reminding us Shaq's stats, there might have been full 24 hours since you've done it last.

To answer your concern, I will quote what Doc (or maybe it was Ainge) had to say about double-teaming, "It's a double-team league. Once you have to start double-teaming, you've lost the game".

So yeah, that's why it is important to realize that once Shaq has deteriorated to a level to which he can no longer credibly command double teams, he'll sharply deteriorate to being a rather "ordinary" offensive player. And being being ordinary, this just doesn't sit well with the fact that he's 400 lbs and 5 seasons removed from being any sort of difference-maker on defense.

And while you can get 12 ppg by any player in the NBA by feeding him the ball often enough, that's just not the best plan to win games. It is definitely not the best plan when it comes to Shaq at this stage of this career, even if you're only doing it for 20 minutes a game. That's it.

I'm going to keep reminding you of the stats because you still have no answer for them under than boneheaded stubboness.  For example, why did Shaq continue to get shots and continue to be just as effective against better teams and better defenses during the playoffs while both Perk and Sheed saw their production AND their efficiency markedly drop?

You want to talk about double-teams?  Does Perk command double-teams?  Did Sheed?  How often was KG double-teamed this past regular season and post-season?  Not all that often, was he?

I've never denied that Shaq has his weaknesses and deficiencies as he winds down his career.  But you particularly have set a completely insane standard that neither Shaq nor any other player in the league could reach.  Perk wouldn't satisfy your requirements if he was a FA Ainge was looking to sign.

Mike

[kozlodoev]

I'm going to keep reminding you of the stats because you still have no answer for them under than boneheaded stubboness.

I've given you a clear answer what I think about this: Anyone in the NBA can score 12 ppg if you feed them the ball often enough. It is also clear to me that feeding the ball to Shaq was clearly a doomed strategy for the Cavs, since they were clearly less efficient with him on the floor (by about 5-6 points per 100 possession).  

For example, why did Shaq continue to get shots and continue to be just as effective against better teams and better defenses during the playoffs while both Perk and Sheed saw their production AND their efficiency markedly drop?

Sheed's efficiency didn't "markedly drop". He scored about a basket less per 48 mins, and gave up about 5 mpg of playing time to Kevin Garnett. Moreover, he shot better from the field and from thee-point in the playoffs.

Perkins was scoring about 12 ppg in the first half of season and has had tendinitis problems since then.

You want to talk about double-teams?  Does Perk command double-teams?  Did Sheed?  How often was KG double-teamed this past regular season and post-season?  Not all that often, was he?

I've never denied that Shaq has his weaknesses and deficiencies as he winds down his career.  But you particularly have set a completely insane standard that neither Shaq nor any other player in the league could reach.  Perk wouldn't satisfy your requirements if he was a FA Ainge was looking to sign.

Unlike Shaq, Perkins can actually move. And my requirements are quite clear: sign a big man who can and will participate in the team defense. That means moving from the weak to the strong side (and vice versa) relatively quickly, blitzing picks, and still recovering fast enough to keep the lane sealed.

Shaq is not this guy, so having him play 20 minutes on this team will severely compromise our ability to win. I couldn't care less about his ability to get us 12 ppg in 20 minutes as they are not a deciding factor for me on a team who has 5 to 6 other offensive options.

[MBunge]

I'm going to keep reminding you of the stats because you still have no answer for them under than boneheaded stubboness.

I've given you a clear answer what I think about this: Anyone in the NBA can score 12 ppg if you feed them the ball often enough. It is also clear to me that feeding the ball to Shaq was clearly a doomed strategy for the Cavs, since they were clearly less efficient with him on the floor (by about 5-6 points per 100 possession).  

For example, why did Shaq continue to get shots and continue to be just as effective against better teams and better defenses during the playoffs while both Perk and Sheed saw their production AND their efficiency markedly drop?

Sheed's efficiency didn't "markedly drop". He scored about a basket less per 48 mins, and gave up about 5 mpg of playing time to Kevin Garnett. Moreover, he shot better from the field and from thee-point in the playoffs.

Perkins was scoring about 12 ppg in the first half of season and has had tendinitis problems since then.

You want to talk about double-teams?  Does Perk command double-teams?  Did Sheed?  How often was KG double-teamed this past regular season and post-season?  Not all that often, was he?

I've never denied that Shaq has his weaknesses and deficiencies as he winds down his career.  But you particularly have set a completely insane standard that neither Shaq nor any other player in the league could reach.  Perk wouldn't satisfy your requirements if he was a FA Ainge was looking to sign.

Unlike Shaq, Perkins can actually move. And my requirements are quite clear: sign a big man who can and will participate in the team defense. That means moving from the weak to the strong side (and vice versa) relatively quickly, blitzing picks, and still recovering fast enough to keep the lane sealed.

Shaq is not this guy, so having him play 20 minutes on this team will severely compromise our ability to win. I couldn't care less about his ability to get us 12 ppg in 20 minutes as they are not a deciding factor for me on a team who has 5 to 6 other offensive options.

1.  Why did Sheed and Perk get fewer shots and score less efficiently in the playoffs vs. regular, while Shaq's production and efficiency wer virtually the same?  You say anybody can score if you keep feeding them the ball.  That's bull because players who can't score won't get fed the ball.  Shaq can still score against any defense and defender in the league, he just can't do for 35 minutes a game anymore.  On the other hand, both Perk and Sheed (especially Perk) can have their offense limited or shut down by opposing defenses.

2.  Shaq played about 23 minutes a game in the regular season and 22 minutes in the playoffs and Cleveland was still one of the best defensive teams in the league, so your contention that Shaq is somebody who destroys a team's defense is provable false.  Furthermore, according to 82games.com, the center position had the 2nd best offensive and defensive PER of the entire Cavaliers team.  That again indicates your Chicken Little fear Shaq would make the defensive sky fall in Boston is silly.

3.  What about double-teams?  You're the one who brought it up.  Now you just want to drop it?  This is what I mean by your insane standard with Shaq.  You say he doesn't draw double-teams and that's a reason why Boston shouldn't get him.  Then when it's pointed out that none of the Celtic centers last season drew double-teams and even the team's best post player wasn't double-teamed that often, you just throw that standard aside.

Mike

[BballTim]

That is true, but considering the starters don't have the same ability to score at will as they once had a true post player who would demand a double team might do them a lot of good.

No-one double-teams Shaq anymore. People play him straight up, and hack him if necessary. He also doesn't have the ability to "score at will" anymore.

While Shaq has clearly fallen far from his peak, I don't know why it's necessary to keep making this point.

Last regular season, Shaq scored 12 points a game on 8.7 shots and 4.2 free throw attempts.  Sheed scored 9 points in 8.2 shots and 1.5 free throw attempts.  Perk scored 10.1 points in 6.4 shots and 3.5 free throw attempts.  So, Shaq last year was clearly more productive than Sheed because he drew fouls and got to the line.  BUT Shaq was clearly less efficient than Perk, which shouldn't be surprising because Shaq gets most of his own points while Perk scores a lot of layups set up by other players.

In the playoffs, however, Shaq scored 11.5 points in 8.4 shots and 4.2 free throw attempts.  Sheed scored 6.1 points on 5.2 shots and 1.2 free throw attempts.  Perk scored 5.7 points on 4.1 shots and 2.3 fre throw attempts.  While both Sheed and Perk's production and offensive efficiency dramatically declined in the playoffs, Shaq remained largely the same in both areas.

Shaq is a more effective and reliable scorer than either Perk or Sheed.

Mike

Hello Mike. Thanks for reminding us Shaq's stats, there might have been full 24 hours since you've done it last.

To answer your concern, I will quote what Doc (or maybe it was Ainge) had to say about double-teaming, "It's a double-team league. Once you have to start double-teaming, you've lost the game".

So yeah, that's why it is important to realize that once Shaq has deteriorated to a level to which he can no longer credibly command double teams, he'll sharply deteriorate to being a rather "ordinary" offensive player. And being being ordinary, this just doesn't sit well with the fact that he's 400 lbs and 5 seasons removed from being any sort of difference-maker on defense.

And while you can get 12 ppg by any player in the NBA by feeding him the ball often enough, that's just not the best plan to win games. It is definitely not the best plan when it comes to Shaq at this stage of this career, even if you're only doing it for 20 minutes a game. That's it.

I'm going to keep reminding you of the stats because you still have no answer for them under than boneheaded stubboness.  For example, why did Shaq continue to get shots and continue to be just as effective against better teams and better defenses during the playoffs while both Perk and Sheed saw their production AND their efficiency markedly drop?

  Sheed's postseason efficiency didn't drop, according to your numbers. Perk's efficiency dropped, but only to the same level as Shaq's efficiency. Perk probably took fewer shots because his knee was hurting towards the end of the year. And Perk and Sheed faced better defenses in the playoffs than Shaq. Should I claim that you're only pushing these easily refutable stats out of boneheaded stubbornness?

[MBunge]

That is true, but considering the starters don't have the same ability to score at will as they once had a true post player who would demand a double team might do them a lot of good.

No-one double-teams Shaq anymore. People play him straight up, and hack him if necessary. He also doesn't have the ability to "score at will" anymore.

While Shaq has clearly fallen far from his peak, I don't know why it's necessary to keep making this point.

Last regular season, Shaq scored 12 points a game on 8.7 shots and 4.2 free throw attempts.  Sheed scored 9 points in 8.2 shots and 1.5 free throw attempts.  Perk scored 10.1 points in 6.4 shots and 3.5 free throw attempts.  So, Shaq last year was clearly more productive than Sheed because he drew fouls and got to the line.  BUT Shaq was clearly less efficient than Perk, which shouldn't be surprising because Shaq gets most of his own points while Perk scores a lot of layups set up by other players.

In the playoffs, however, Shaq scored 11.5 points in 8.4 shots and 4.2 free throw attempts.  Sheed scored 6.1 points on 5.2 shots and 1.2 free throw attempts.  Perk scored 5.7 points on 4.1 shots and 2.3 fre throw attempts.  While both Sheed and Perk's production and offensive efficiency dramatically declined in the playoffs, Shaq remained largely the same in both areas.

Shaq is a more effective and reliable scorer than either Perk or Sheed.

Mike

Hello Mike. Thanks for reminding us Shaq's stats, there might have been full 24 hours since you've done it last.

To answer your concern, I will quote what Doc (or maybe it was Ainge) had to say about double-teaming, "It's a double-team league. Once you have to start double-teaming, you've lost the game".

So yeah, that's why it is important to realize that once Shaq has deteriorated to a level to which he can no longer credibly command double teams, he'll sharply deteriorate to being a rather "ordinary" offensive player. And being being ordinary, this just doesn't sit well with the fact that he's 400 lbs and 5 seasons removed from being any sort of difference-maker on defense.

And while you can get 12 ppg by any player in the NBA by feeding him the ball often enough, that's just not the best plan to win games. It is definitely not the best plan when it comes to Shaq at this stage of this career, even if you're only doing it for 20 minutes a game. That's it.

I'm going to keep reminding you of the stats because you still have no answer for them under than boneheaded stubboness.  For example, why did Shaq continue to get shots and continue to be just as effective against better teams and better defenses during the playoffs while both Perk and Sheed saw their production AND their efficiency markedly drop?

  Sheed's postseason efficiency didn't drop, according to your numbers. Perk's efficiency dropped, but only to the same level as Shaq's efficiency. Perk probably took fewer shots because his knee was hurting towards the end of the year. And Perk and Sheed faced better defenses in the playoffs than Shaq. Should I claim that you're only pushing these easily refutable stats out of boneheaded stubbornness?

Yes, it would have been more accurate to say that Sheed's production dropped while both Perk's production and efficiency dropped.  And what other team's were playing better defense than the Celtics in the playoffs last season?

Mike

[BballTim]

That is true, but considering the starters don't have the same ability to score at will as they once had a true post player who would demand a double team might do them a lot of good.

No-one double-teams Shaq anymore. People play him straight up, and hack him if necessary. He also doesn't have the ability to "score at will" anymore.

While Shaq has clearly fallen far from his peak, I don't know why it's necessary to keep making this point.

Last regular season, Shaq scored 12 points a game on 8.7 shots and 4.2 free throw attempts.  Sheed scored 9 points in 8.2 shots and 1.5 free throw attempts.  Perk scored 10.1 points in 6.4 shots and 3.5 free throw attempts.  So, Shaq last year was clearly more productive than Sheed because he drew fouls and got to the line.  BUT Shaq was clearly less efficient than Perk, which shouldn't be surprising because Shaq gets most of his own points while Perk scores a lot of layups set up by other players.

In the playoffs, however, Shaq scored 11.5 points in 8.4 shots and 4.2 free throw attempts.  Sheed scored 6.1 points on 5.2 shots and 1.2 free throw attempts.  Perk scored 5.7 points on 4.1 shots and 2.3 fre throw attempts.  While both Sheed and Perk's production and offensive efficiency dramatically declined in the playoffs, Shaq remained largely the same in both areas.

Shaq is a more effective and reliable scorer than either Perk or Sheed.

Mike

Hello Mike. Thanks for reminding us Shaq's stats, there might have been full 24 hours since you've done it last.

To answer your concern, I will quote what Doc (or maybe it was Ainge) had to say about double-teaming, "It's a double-team league. Once you have to start double-teaming, you've lost the game".

So yeah, that's why it is important to realize that once Shaq has deteriorated to a level to which he can no longer credibly command double teams, he'll sharply deteriorate to being a rather "ordinary" offensive player. And being being ordinary, this just doesn't sit well with the fact that he's 400 lbs and 5 seasons removed from being any sort of difference-maker on defense.

And while you can get 12 ppg by any player in the NBA by feeding him the ball often enough, that's just not the best plan to win games. It is definitely not the best plan when it comes to Shaq at this stage of this career, even if you're only doing it for 20 minutes a game. That's it.

I'm going to keep reminding you of the stats because you still have no answer for them under than boneheaded stubboness.  For example, why did Shaq continue to get shots and continue to be just as effective against better teams and better defenses during the playoffs while both Perk and Sheed saw their production AND their efficiency markedly drop?

  Sheed's postseason efficiency didn't drop, according to your numbers. Perk's efficiency dropped, but only to the same level as Shaq's efficiency. Perk probably took fewer shots because his knee was hurting towards the end of the year. And Perk and Sheed faced better defenses in the playoffs than Shaq. Should I claim that you're only pushing these easily refutable stats out of boneheaded stubbornness?

Yes, it would have been more accurate to say that Sheed's production dropped while both Perk's production and efficiency dropped.  And what other team's were playing better defense than the Celtics in the playoffs last season?

Mike

  Technically, the Magic. And are you aware that Cleveland played against more than one team in the playoffs?

[hpantazo]

That is true, but considering the starters don't have the same ability to score at will as they once had a true post player who would demand a double team might do them a lot of good.

No-one double-teams Shaq anymore. People play him straight up, and hack him if necessary. He also doesn't have the ability to "score at will" anymore.

While Shaq has clearly fallen far from his peak, I don't know why it's necessary to keep making this point.

Last regular season, Shaq scored 12 points a game on 8.7 shots and 4.2 free throw attempts.  Sheed scored 9 points in 8.2 shots and 1.5 free throw attempts.  Perk scored 10.1 points in 6.4 shots and 3.5 free throw attempts.  So, Shaq last year was clearly more productive than Sheed because he drew fouls and got to the line.  BUT Shaq was clearly less efficient than Perk, which shouldn't be surprising because Shaq gets most of his own points while Perk scores a lot of layups set up by other players.

In the playoffs, however, Shaq scored 11.5 points in 8.4 shots and 4.2 free throw attempts.  Sheed scored 6.1 points on 5.2 shots and 1.2 free throw attempts.  Perk scored 5.7 points on 4.1 shots and 2.3 fre throw attempts.  While both Sheed and Perk's production and offensive efficiency dramatically declined in the playoffs, Shaq remained largely the same in both areas.

Shaq is a more effective and reliable scorer than either Perk or Sheed.

Mike

Hello Mike. Thanks for reminding us Shaq's stats, there might have been full 24 hours since you've done it last.

To answer your concern, I will quote what Doc (or maybe it was Ainge) had to say about double-teaming, "It's a double-team league. Once you have to start double-teaming, you've lost the game".

So yeah, that's why it is important to realize that once Shaq has deteriorated to a level to which he can no longer credibly command double teams, he'll sharply deteriorate to being a rather "ordinary" offensive player. And being being ordinary, this just doesn't sit well with the fact that he's 400 lbs and 5 seasons removed from being any sort of difference-maker on defense.

And while you can get 12 ppg by any player in the NBA by feeding him the ball often enough, that's just not the best plan to win games. It is definitely not the best plan when it comes to Shaq at this stage of this career, even if you're only doing it for 20 minutes a game. That's it.

I'm going to keep reminding you of the stats because you still have no answer for them under than boneheaded stubboness.  For example, why did Shaq continue to get shots and continue to be just as effective against better teams and better defenses during the playoffs while both Perk and Sheed saw their production AND their efficiency markedly drop?

  Sheed's postseason efficiency didn't drop, according to your numbers. Perk's efficiency dropped, but only to the same level as Shaq's efficiency. Perk probably took fewer shots because his knee was hurting towards the end of the year. And Perk and Sheed faced better defenses in the playoffs than Shaq. Should I claim that you're only pushing these easily refutable stats out of boneheaded stubbornness?

Yes, it would have been more accurate to say that Sheed's production dropped while both Perk's production and efficiency dropped.  And what other team's were playing better defense than the Celtics in the playoffs last season?

Mike

  Technically, the Magic. And are you aware that Cleveland played against more than one team in the playoffs?

really? you think the magic played better defense than the celtics in the playoffs last year? I don't. You can't judge by the hawks series, the hawks didn't show up.

[kozlodoev]

1.  Why did Sheed and Perk get fewer shots and score less efficiently in the playoffs vs. regular, while Shaq's production and efficiency wer virtually the same?

Sheed shot a higher percentage in the playoffs. I don't see how this makes him "less efficient". And he played less because KG got extra 4 minutes per game. Zydrunas Ilgauskas, on the other hand, is not exactly Kevin Garnett.

Shaq can still score against any defense and defender in the league, he just can't do for 35 minutes a game anymore.

So why then did the Cavaliers score so much better as a team with him off the floor?

Shaq can still score against any defense and defender in the league, he just can't do for 35 minutes a game anymore.  On the other hand, both Perk and Sheed (especially Perk) can have their offense limited or shut down by opposing defenses.

Of course. And no matter how limited their offense is, they will still score 12 points per game if they get enough touches.

2.  Shaq played about 23 minutes a game in the regular season and 22 minutes in the playoffs and Cleveland was still one of the best defensive teams in the league, so your contention that Shaq is somebody who destroys a team's defense is provable false.

My contention is that Shaq is someone who will not be able to play within the Celtics team defense. If you want to redo a championship defense for an aging, marginal contributor, be my guest.

Furthermore, according to 82games.com, the center position had the 2nd best offensive and defensive PER of the entire Cavaliers team.  That again indicates your Chicken Little fear Shaq would make the defensive sky fall in Boston is silly.

And according to 82games.com, the Celtics had the lowest PER defensively at the SG position, so Ray Allen must be our best defender. Blame Hollinger.

What about double-teams? You're the one who brought it up.  Now you just want to drop it?  This is what I mean by your insane standard with Shaq.  You say he doesn't draw double-teams and that's a reason why Boston shouldn't get him.  Then when it's pointed out that none of the Celtic centers last season drew double-teams and even the team's best post player wasn't double-teamed that often, you just throw that standard aside.

You _really_ don't like reading, do you? Let me try outline style, maybe it will be easier for you.

* None of the Celtics centers drew double teams. However, all of them performed admirably in the Celtics defensive schemes due to their ability to adjust and cut off angles.

* Shaq used to have value to teams because he was an offense on his own, drawing double teams and distributing to to open teammates. He is no longer able to do that as he has done in the past.

* Because he can no longer perform offensively as he used to, he has now become an overall liability, and will be even more so in a defensive system which requires big men to blitz, recover, and rotate quickly and crisply.

[MBunge]

That is true, but considering the starters don't have the same ability to score at will as they once had a true post player who would demand a double team might do them a lot of good.

No-one double-teams Shaq anymore. People play him straight up, and hack him if necessary. He also doesn't have the ability to "score at will" anymore.

While Shaq has clearly fallen far from his peak, I don't know why it's necessary to keep making this point.

Last regular season, Shaq scored 12 points a game on 8.7 shots and 4.2 free throw attempts.  Sheed scored 9 points in 8.2 shots and 1.5 free throw attempts.  Perk scored 10.1 points in 6.4 shots and 3.5 free throw attempts.  So, Shaq last year was clearly more productive than Sheed because he drew fouls and got to the line.  BUT Shaq was clearly less efficient than Perk, which shouldn't be surprising because Shaq gets most of his own points while Perk scores a lot of layups set up by other players.

In the playoffs, however, Shaq scored 11.5 points in 8.4 shots and 4.2 free throw attempts.  Sheed scored 6.1 points on 5.2 shots and 1.2 free throw attempts.  Perk scored 5.7 points on 4.1 shots and 2.3 fre throw attempts.  While both Sheed and Perk's production and offensive efficiency dramatically declined in the playoffs, Shaq remained largely the same in both areas.

Shaq is a more effective and reliable scorer than either Perk or Sheed.

Mike

Hello Mike. Thanks for reminding us Shaq's stats, there might have been full 24 hours since you've done it last.

To answer your concern, I will quote what Doc (or maybe it was Ainge) had to say about double-teaming, "It's a double-team league. Once you have to start double-teaming, you've lost the game".

So yeah, that's why it is important to realize that once Shaq has deteriorated to a level to which he can no longer credibly command double teams, he'll sharply deteriorate to being a rather "ordinary" offensive player. And being being ordinary, this just doesn't sit well with the fact that he's 400 lbs and 5 seasons removed from being any sort of difference-maker on defense.

And while you can get 12 ppg by any player in the NBA by feeding him the ball often enough, that's just not the best plan to win games. It is definitely not the best plan when it comes to Shaq at this stage of this career, even if you're only doing it for 20 minutes a game. That's it.

I'm going to keep reminding you of the stats because you still have no answer for them under than boneheaded stubboness.  For example, why did Shaq continue to get shots and continue to be just as effective against better teams and better defenses during the playoffs while both Perk and Sheed saw their production AND their efficiency markedly drop?

  Sheed's postseason efficiency didn't drop, according to your numbers. Perk's efficiency dropped, but only to the same level as Shaq's efficiency. Perk probably took fewer shots because his knee was hurting towards the end of the year. And Perk and Sheed faced better defenses in the playoffs than Shaq. Should I claim that you're only pushing these easily refutable stats out of boneheaded stubbornness?

Yes, it would have been more accurate to say that Sheed's production dropped while both Perk's production and efficiency dropped.  And what other team's were playing better defense than the Celtics in the playoffs last season?

Mike

  Technically, the Magic. And are you aware that Cleveland played against more than one team in the playoffs?

Are you aware Shaq averaged more points in the playoffs against Boston than he did against Chicago?

Mike

[BballTim]

That is true, but considering the starters don't have the same ability to score at will as they once had a true post player who would demand a double team might do them a lot of good.

No-one double-teams Shaq anymore. People play him straight up, and hack him if necessary. He also doesn't have the ability to "score at will" anymore.

While Shaq has clearly fallen far from his peak, I don't know why it's necessary to keep making this point.

Last regular season, Shaq scored 12 points a game on 8.7 shots and 4.2 free throw attempts.  Sheed scored 9 points in 8.2 shots and 1.5 free throw attempts.  Perk scored 10.1 points in 6.4 shots and 3.5 free throw attempts.  So, Shaq last year was clearly more productive than Sheed because he drew fouls and got to the line.  BUT Shaq was clearly less efficient than Perk, which shouldn't be surprising because Shaq gets most of his own points while Perk scores a lot of layups set up by other players.

In the playoffs, however, Shaq scored 11.5 points in 8.4 shots and 4.2 free throw attempts.  Sheed scored 6.1 points on 5.2 shots and 1.2 free throw attempts.  Perk scored 5.7 points on 4.1 shots and 2.3 fre throw attempts.  While both Sheed and Perk's production and offensive efficiency dramatically declined in the playoffs, Shaq remained largely the same in both areas.

Shaq is a more effective and reliable scorer than either Perk or Sheed.

Mike

Hello Mike. Thanks for reminding us Shaq's stats, there might have been full 24 hours since you've done it last.

To answer your concern, I will quote what Doc (or maybe it was Ainge) had to say about double-teaming, "It's a double-team league. Once you have to start double-teaming, you've lost the game".

So yeah, that's why it is important to realize that once Shaq has deteriorated to a level to which he can no longer credibly command double teams, he'll sharply deteriorate to being a rather "ordinary" offensive player. And being being ordinary, this just doesn't sit well with the fact that he's 400 lbs and 5 seasons removed from being any sort of difference-maker on defense.

And while you can get 12 ppg by any player in the NBA by feeding him the ball often enough, that's just not the best plan to win games. It is definitely not the best plan when it comes to Shaq at this stage of this career, even if you're only doing it for 20 minutes a game. That's it.

I'm going to keep reminding you of the stats because you still have no answer for them under than boneheaded stubboness.  For example, why did Shaq continue to get shots and continue to be just as effective against better teams and better defenses during the playoffs while both Perk and Sheed saw their production AND their efficiency markedly drop?

  Sheed's postseason efficiency didn't drop, according to your numbers. Perk's efficiency dropped, but only to the same level as Shaq's efficiency. Perk probably took fewer shots because his knee was hurting towards the end of the year. And Perk and Sheed faced better defenses in the playoffs than Shaq. Should I claim that you're only pushing these easily refutable stats out of boneheaded stubbornness?

Yes, it would have been more accurate to say that Sheed's production dropped while both Perk's production and efficiency dropped.  And what other team's were playing better defense than the Celtics in the playoffs last season?

Mike

  Technically, the Magic. And are you aware that Cleveland played against more than one team in the playoffs?

really? you think the magic played better defense than the celtics in the playoffs last year? I don't. You can't judge by the hawks series, the hawks didn't show up.

  No, that's why I said technically. But the point was we played 4  of the best defenses in the league while they played the Celts and (ulp) the Bulls.

[BballTim]

That is true, but considering the starters don't have the same ability to score at will as they once had a true post player who would demand a double team might do them a lot of good.

No-one double-teams Shaq anymore. People play him straight up, and hack him if necessary. He also doesn't have the ability to "score at will" anymore.

While Shaq has clearly fallen far from his peak, I don't know why it's necessary to keep making this point.

Last regular season, Shaq scored 12 points a game on 8.7 shots and 4.2 free throw attempts.  Sheed scored 9 points in 8.2 shots and 1.5 free throw attempts.  Perk scored 10.1 points in 6.4 shots and 3.5 free throw attempts.  So, Shaq last year was clearly more productive than Sheed because he drew fouls and got to the line.  BUT Shaq was clearly less efficient than Perk, which shouldn't be surprising because Shaq gets most of his own points while Perk scores a lot of layups set up by other players.

In the playoffs, however, Shaq scored 11.5 points in 8.4 shots and 4.2 free throw attempts.  Sheed scored 6.1 points on 5.2 shots and 1.2 free throw attempts.  Perk scored 5.7 points on 4.1 shots and 2.3 fre throw attempts.  While both Sheed and Perk's production and offensive efficiency dramatically declined in the playoffs, Shaq remained largely the same in both areas.

Shaq is a more effective and reliable scorer than either Perk or Sheed.

Mike

Hello Mike. Thanks for reminding us Shaq's stats, there might have been full 24 hours since you've done it last.

To answer your concern, I will quote what Doc (or maybe it was Ainge) had to say about double-teaming, "It's a double-team league. Once you have to start double-teaming, you've lost the game".

So yeah, that's why it is important to realize that once Shaq has deteriorated to a level to which he can no longer credibly command double teams, he'll sharply deteriorate to being a rather "ordinary" offensive player. And being being ordinary, this just doesn't sit well with the fact that he's 400 lbs and 5 seasons removed from being any sort of difference-maker on defense.

And while you can get 12 ppg by any player in the NBA by feeding him the ball often enough, that's just not the best plan to win games. It is definitely not the best plan when it comes to Shaq at this stage of this career, even if you're only doing it for 20 minutes a game. That's it.

I'm going to keep reminding you of the stats because you still have no answer for them under than boneheaded stubboness.  For example, why did Shaq continue to get shots and continue to be just as effective against better teams and better defenses during the playoffs while both Perk and Sheed saw their production AND their efficiency markedly drop?

  Sheed's postseason efficiency didn't drop, according to your numbers. Perk's efficiency dropped, but only to the same level as Shaq's efficiency. Perk probably took fewer shots because his knee was hurting towards the end of the year. And Perk and Sheed faced better defenses in the playoffs than Shaq. Should I claim that you're only pushing these easily refutable stats out of boneheaded stubbornness?

Yes, it would have been more accurate to say that Sheed's production dropped while both Perk's production and efficiency dropped.  And what other team's were playing better defense than the Celtics in the playoffs last season?

Mike

  Technically, the Magic. And are you aware that Cleveland played against more than one team in the playoffs?

Are you aware Shaq averaged more points in the playoffs against Boston than he did against Chicago?

Mike

  Of course I am. He took more shots. He scored more points. Stopping Shaq wasn't a huge goal for the Celts, stopping LeBron was. Perk was hedging away from Shaq and towards James on most possessions. But it's still true that Shaq faced a good defense and a bad defense. What bad defenses did Perk and Sheed face?

[Who]

That is true, but considering the starters don't have the same ability to score at will as they once had a true post player who would demand a double team might do them a lot of good.

No-one double-teams Shaq anymore. People play him straight up, and hack him if necessary. He also doesn't have the ability to "score at will" anymore.

While Shaq has clearly fallen far from his peak, I don't know why it's necessary to keep making this point.

Last regular season, Shaq scored 12 points a game on 8.7 shots and 4.2 free throw attempts.  Sheed scored 9 points in 8.2 shots and 1.5 free throw attempts.  Perk scored 10.1 points in 6.4 shots and 3.5 free throw attempts.  So, Shaq last year was clearly more productive than Sheed because he drew fouls and got to the line.  BUT Shaq was clearly less efficient than Perk, which shouldn't be surprising because Shaq gets most of his own points while Perk scores a lot of layups set up by other players.

In the playoffs, however, Shaq scored 11.5 points in 8.4 shots and 4.2 free throw attempts.  Sheed scored 6.1 points on 5.2 shots and 1.2 free throw attempts.  Perk scored 5.7 points on 4.1 shots and 2.3 fre throw attempts.  While both Sheed and Perk's production and offensive efficiency dramatically declined in the playoffs, Shaq remained largely the same in both areas.

Shaq is a more effective and reliable scorer than either Perk or Sheed.

Mike

Hello Mike. Thanks for reminding us Shaq's stats, there might have been full 24 hours since you've done it last.

To answer your concern, I will quote what Doc (or maybe it was Ainge) had to say about double-teaming, "It's a double-team league. Once you have to start double-teaming, you've lost the game".

So yeah, that's why it is important to realize that once Shaq has deteriorated to a level to which he can no longer credibly command double teams, he'll sharply deteriorate to being a rather "ordinary" offensive player. And being being ordinary, this just doesn't sit well with the fact that he's 400 lbs and 5 seasons removed from being any sort of difference-maker on defense.

And while you can get 12 ppg by any player in the NBA by feeding him the ball often enough, that's just not the best plan to win games. It is definitely not the best plan when it comes to Shaq at this stage of this career, even if you're only doing it for 20 minutes a game. That's it.

I'm going to keep reminding you of the stats because you still have no answer for them under than boneheaded stubboness.  For example, why did Shaq continue to get shots and continue to be just as effective against better teams and better defenses during the playoffs while both Perk and Sheed saw their production AND their efficiency markedly drop?

  Sheed's postseason efficiency didn't drop, according to your numbers. Perk's efficiency dropped, but only to the same level as Shaq's efficiency. Perk probably took fewer shots because his knee was hurting towards the end of the year. And Perk and Sheed faced better defenses in the playoffs than Shaq. Should I claim that you're only pushing these easily refutable stats out of boneheaded stubbornness?

Yes, it would have been more accurate to say that Sheed's production dropped while both Perk's production and efficiency dropped.  And what other team's were playing better defense than the Celtics in the playoffs last season?

Mike

  Technically, the Magic. And are you aware that Cleveland played against more than one team in the playoffs?

really? you think the magic played better defense than the celtics in the playoffs last year? I don't. You can't judge by the hawks series, the hawks didn't show up.

  No, that's why I said technically. But the point was we played 4  of the best defenses in the league while they played the Celts and (ulp) the Bulls.

I think the Celtics played a good defensive team (Miami), a poor defensive team (Cleveland) and two excellent defensive teams (Orlando, LAL).

While the Cavs played against one good defensive team (Chicago) and one excellent defensive team (Boston).