Should Jermaine come off the bench?

[moiso]

I get what Who is saying - that Jermaine is no longer any good at creating his own offense, though he's still a more than adequate garbage finisher.  Hmm, who does that sound like?  Perkins is just as bad at creating his offense, if not worse.  

I regard Perk as the superior post scorer (creating his own offense) ... here's how I would rate them.

Both players kill their team's offensive rhythm due to their lack of recognition + passing + slowness of their moves. Both players are turnover problems. The only difference is that Perkins is a lot more efficient at finishing his shot attempts out of the post. Jermaine has more moves down there but he doesn't finish enough of them to create an advantage there.

Not only is Jermaine a worse post scorer than Perkins ... he doubles up the problem by being more aggressive and using more possessions (in an ineffective manner) than Perk does. Creating an even larger negative contribution for his team.

Neither player is good enough to be a go-to option for their team.

Amen!

[Mike-Dub]

When Perk gets back if he is close to fully healthy or if we get Shaq then yes, but both should be on the bench behind a almost fully healthy or fully healthy (which I don't believe we'll get but hope as heck we will).

[snively]

I get what Who is saying - that Jermaine is no longer any good at creating his own offense, though he's still a more than adequate garbage finisher.  Hmm, who does that sound like?  Perkins is just as bad at creating his offense, if not worse. 

I regard Perk as the superior post scorer (creating his own offense) ... here's how I would rate them.

Both players kill their team's offensive rhythm due to their lack of recognition + passing + slowness of their moves. Both players are turnover problems. The only difference is that Perkins is a lot more efficient at finishing his shot attempts out of the post. Jermaine has more moves down there but he doesn't finish enough of them to create an advantage there.

Not only is Jermaine a worse post scorer than Perkins ... he doubles up the problem by being more aggressive and using more possessions (in an ineffective manner) than Perk does. Creating an even larger negative contribution for his team.

Neither player is good enough to be a go-to option for their team.

I think you are overstating this effect.  It's not like JO is going to feature much more than Perk in the post if he's not more effective. Rondo likes to give his guys opportunities to get involved, but I don't see him force-feeding JO with inefficient post opportunities, especially when JO has other ways of scoring, i.e. the kick-out jumper, the pick and pop or roll and facing up from the mid-post, not to mention all the other weapons on the team.

[guava_wrench]

Been doing some thinking on this after reading through Celticshub "Jermaine is our starting center" post today....

Does anyone else think it's probably for the best if Jermaine started on the bench, and Baby starts (moving KG to the center)? The logic for my thought process is simple; it's all aboung length.

As of today, our 'bigs' are limited to J.O, KG, Baby, Harangoody and Erden. I haven't seen much of the Celtics Vegas action, but early reports aren't particularily favorable for Semih Erden.

That means that unless we bring in another big, or if KG/J.O find the fountain of youth, there are going to be stretches on the court where you have Davis and Harangoody as your 4-5 combination.

From a length stand point only, and while JO could FINISH games, wouldn't we be better off starting Baby Davis to avoid/minimalize the risk of being severely undersized?

No, because the best centers in the post will be starting, and we don't want KG to have to bang with them in this point in his career.

If you want either KG or JO on the floor all the time, just stagger their rest wisely.

[LooseCannon]

Maybe Doc will toss Semih Erden out there in the starting lineup just to shut up people who say he never plays rookies.

[Who]

Given the decline in Jermaine O'Neal's defensive abilities (DPOY candidate to good defender) and his rebounding (good-to-very good rebounder to slightly below average rebounding).

Given those marginal defense/rebounding contributions ... negative offensive contribtions can negate all his positive play. Making Jermaine O'Neal a non-factor (or worse depending on the number of touches/shot attempts).

-------------------------------------------------

Controlling and limiting Jermaine O'Neal's shot-creation opportunities is the only way to stop him from being an offensive liability.

Given the Celtics lack of alternative post presences + their desire for a post presence + the unselfishness and team orientated offensive play of the Celtics + O'Neal's mental makeup (his aggressiveness, self-belief) ... I have little to no confidence in that happening (limiting his shot-creation enough to stop him from being an offensive liability).

--------------------------------------------

If Jermaine O'Neal simply accepted his weaknesses and became a complementary player who doesn't try to create his own offense he could still be a valuable role player in this league.

Unfortunately, he hasn't been able to accept that yet. 

[Jon]

Given the decline in Jermaine O'Neal's defensive abilities (DPOY candidate to good defender) and his rebounding (good-to-very good rebounder to slightly below average rebounding).

Given those marginal defense/rebounding contributions ... negative offensive contribtions can negate all his positive play. Making Jermaine O'Neal a non-factor (or worse depending on the number of touches/shot attempts).

-------------------------------------------------

Controlling and limiting Jermaine O'Neal's shot-creation opportunities is the only way to stop him from being an offensive liability.

Given the Celtics lack of alternative post presences + their desire for a post presence + the unselfishness and team orientated offensive play of the Celtics + O'Neal's mental makeup (his aggressiveness, self-belief) ... I have little to no confidence in that happening (limiting his shot-creation enough to stop him from being an offensive liability).

--------------------------------------------

If Jermaine O'Neal simply accepted his weaknesses and became a complementary player who doesn't try to create his own offense he could still be a valuable role player in this league.

Unfortunately, he hasn't been able to accept that yet.  

Perhaps (and this is very much a skeptical perhaps), if we define post play as simply passing the ball into the post and letting the post player make a move AND we took into account (as you mentioned) that Perk didn't take many bad shots because he wasn't given the opportunity, then maybe (and again, I'm still not buying it) you could have an argument.  However, I think you're forgetting a number of things:

1) Jermaine O'Neal was asked to be the 2nd best player on the Heat.  Thus, he was expected to take a lot of shots.

2) While Doc will probably look to utilize whatever post game he has (because the C's are pretty desperate for one), simple basketball logistics state that even if Doc tries to utilize it more, he'll still get fewer shots than last year.  There's no way he can put up as many shots as he did last year when he's going to have to share the floor with 4 double digit scorers.  

3) I think you're letting our first round playoffs series influence your opinion about him too much.  I'm guessing that outside of that series and the games Boston played the Heat, you didn't see too many Heat games.  I'm thinking if we took Jermaine off that squad, inserted KG, and then made KG matchup with a defense as good as the Celtics upfront, with the teammates he had on the Heat, he probably would've had a pretty crappy series too.  (Let's also not forget that all of our superstars had some pretty crappy, and even crappy stretches of games, in the playoffs). 

4) Let's not forget what a dramatic difference O'Neal can make in other areas.  While he doesn't have three point range, he can spread the floor much better than Perk.  While he may have lost some athleticism, when Rondo or PP finds him under the basket, he will finish.  

I really expect Jermaine to find himself again here.  He did try to do too much at times last year.  I just don't see how that's going to happen here.  Stephon Marbury, despite sucking, bought into the team concept here.  I don't understand why you think that Jermaine won't.  Quite frankly, prior to this year, there really was no reason for him to shoot less since he was playing on mediocre teams that were expecting him to score a lot.  

[Greenbean]

I would love to see JO get his weight down and see if he gets some of his left back. He's only 31. If he does he should start all year and into the playoffs no matter who is healthy.

Baby should not start but definitely should get some extended minutes until Perk gets back.

[snively]

Given the decline in Jermaine O'Neal's defensive abilities (DPOY candidate to good defender) and his rebounding (good-to-very good rebounder to slightly below average rebounding).

Given those marginal defense/rebounding contributions ... negative offensive contribtions can negate all his positive play. Making Jermaine O'Neal a non-factor (or worse depending on the number of touches/shot attempts).

-------------------------------------------------

Controlling and limiting Jermaine O'Neal's shot-creation opportunities is the only way to stop him from being an offensive liability.

Given the Celtics lack of alternative post presences + their desire for a post presence + the unselfishness and team orientated offensive play of the Celtics + O'Neal's mental makeup (his aggressiveness, self-belief) ... I have little to no confidence in that happening (limiting his shot-creation enough to stop him from being an offensive liability).

--------------------------------------------

If Jermaine O'Neal simply accepted his weaknesses and became a complementary player who doesn't try to create his own offense he could still be a valuable role player in this league.

Unfortunately, he hasn't been able to accept that yet. 

The team's desire to have a post presence + JO's aggressiveness in taking advantage of post opportunities does not mean that we're going to rebuild our offense around Jermaine.  You are also acting like the team can't recognize the futility of an endeavor and will allow JO to run the offense into the ground after he's already proven himself to be a ball-stopper and a possession waster.  Especially with 4 other scoring options of superior stature in the starting line-up.

[Roy Hobbs]

Among all centers last year, Jermaine O'Neal was 10th in points and 15th in rebounds, and played above-average defense.  He's clearly in the top half of all starting centers, and probably in the top third.

I don't think it makes much sense to bring him off the bench.  The only circumstances where I'd do that were if: 1) we signed Shaq, or 2) if Perk made a full recovery, with no rust at all going into the playoffs.  Even with a healthy Perk, I'd go with whoever the other starters were playing best with.

[GranTur]

O'Neal is an above average scorer and post defender, replacing Perk, who is a below average scorer and an elite post defender.

Works for me. Our defense was not the problem anyway.

We already know the guy is willing to play hurt for his team too. He's got toughness and a will to win. His personality fits with our team.

Jermaine was one of the best signing this offseason by any team in the NBA.

[Jon]

O'Neal is an above average scorer and post defender, replacing Perk, who is a below average scorer and an elite post defender.

Works for me. Our defense was not the problem anyway.

We already know the guy is willing to play hurt for his team too. He's got toughness and a will to win. His personality fits with our team.

Jermaine was one of the best signing this offseason by any team in the NBA.

While I'm not sure I'd go quite that far, but I really think he's going to be one of the better signings of the offseason.  

I think the biggest question mark is if he can stay healthy.  But if he can, I really see him doing quite well.  Even if Who's worst nightmares come true and Jermaine decides to try to score a lot, he'll likely have a lot more success when the opposition's worst post defender is guarding him (because the best one is on KG) and everyone else has to stay home on Rondo, Ray, Paul, and KG.

And I really can't wait to see how many easy baskets he can get.  If I had a nickel for everytime Perk got stripped, blocked, bobbled, or just missed an easy bucket underneath on a penetration pass, I'd have a lot of nickels.  I know everyone wants to make a big deal about Perk shooting nearly 60% from the field; however, with the looks he was getting, it was a crime he didn't shoot 80%.  

[Who]

Given the decline in Jermaine O'Neal's defensive abilities (DPOY candidate to good defender) and his rebounding (good-to-very good rebounder to slightly below average rebounding).

Given those marginal defense/rebounding contributions ... negative offensive contribtions can negate all his positive play. Making Jermaine O'Neal a non-factor (or worse depending on the number of touches/shot attempts).

-------------------------------------------------

Controlling and limiting Jermaine O'Neal's shot-creation opportunities is the only way to stop him from being an offensive liability.

Given the Celtics lack of alternative post presences + their desire for a post presence + the unselfishness and team orientated offensive play of the Celtics + O'Neal's mental makeup (his aggressiveness, self-belief) ... I have little to no confidence in that happening (limiting his shot-creation enough to stop him from being an offensive liability).

--------------------------------------------

If Jermaine O'Neal simply accepted his weaknesses and became a complementary player who doesn't try to create his own offense he could still be a valuable role player in this league.

Unfortunately, he hasn't been able to accept that yet.  

Perhaps (and this is very much a skeptical perhaps), if we define post play as simply passing the ball into the post and letting the post player make a move AND we took into account (as you mentioned) that Perk didn't take many bad shots because he wasn't given the opportunity, then maybe (and again, I'm still not buying it) you could have an argument.  However, I think you're forgetting a number of things:

1) Jermaine O'Neal was asked to be the 2nd best player on the Heat.  Thus, he was expected to take a lot of shots.

2) While Doc will probably look to utilize whatever post game he has (because the C's are pretty desperate for one), simple basketball logistics state that even if Doc tries to utilize it more, he'll still get fewer shots than last year.  There's no way he can put up as many shots as he did last year when he's going to have to share the floor with 4 double digit scorers.  

3) I think you're letting our first round playoffs series influence your opinion about him too much.  I'm guessing that outside of that series and the games Boston played the Heat, you didn't see too many Heat games.  I'm thinking if we took Jermaine off that squad, inserted KG, and then made KG matchup with a defense as good as the Celtics upfront, with the teammates he had on the Heat, he probably would've had a pretty crappy series too.  (Let's also not forget that all of our superstars had some pretty crappy, and even crappy stretches of games, in the playoffs). 

4) Let's not forget what a dramatic difference O'Neal can make in other areas.  While he doesn't have three point range, he can spread the floor much better than Perk.  While he may have lost some athleticism, when Rondo or PP finds him under the basket, he will finish.  

I really expect Jermaine to find himself again here.  He did try to do too much at times last year.  I just don't see how that's going to happen here.  Stephon Marbury, despite sucking, bought into the team concept here.  I don't understand why you think that Jermaine won't.  Quite frankly, prior to this year, there really was no reason for him to shoot less since he was playing on mediocre teams that were expecting him to score a lot.  

#3 -- this is incorrect. I have watched Jermaine play somewhere between 125-150 games over the last three years. Watching the same flaws each year in different situations (Indiana, Toronto and Miami).

#1 -- Jermaine O'Neal was not asked to be the second best player in Miami + was not asked to create his own shot in Miami ... outside of that playoff series.

He only got as many touches and shot attempts in that series because their offense flat-lined and they lacked go-to options.

Miami did an outstanding job of limiting Jermaine's post touches and shot-creation responsibilities -- especially when you consider how limited their supporting cast was in that department.

#2 -- I do not expect Boston to do as a good job as Miami did in controlling Jermaine's offensive responsibilities. I also do not expect Boston to do as bad of a job as Toronto or Indiana did.

[wdleehi]

He starts until Perk is ready to take his place.

[Jon]

Given the decline in Jermaine O'Neal's defensive abilities (DPOY candidate to good defender) and his rebounding (good-to-very good rebounder to slightly below average rebounding).

Given those marginal defense/rebounding contributions ... negative offensive contribtions can negate all his positive play. Making Jermaine O'Neal a non-factor (or worse depending on the number of touches/shot attempts).

-------------------------------------------------

Controlling and limiting Jermaine O'Neal's shot-creation opportunities is the only way to stop him from being an offensive liability.

Given the Celtics lack of alternative post presences + their desire for a post presence + the unselfishness and team orientated offensive play of the Celtics + O'Neal's mental makeup (his aggressiveness, self-belief) ... I have little to no confidence in that happening (limiting his shot-creation enough to stop him from being an offensive liability).

--------------------------------------------

If Jermaine O'Neal simply accepted his weaknesses and became a complementary player who doesn't try to create his own offense he could still be a valuable role player in this league.

Unfortunately, he hasn't been able to accept that yet.  

Perhaps (and this is very much a skeptical perhaps), if we define post play as simply passing the ball into the post and letting the post player make a move AND we took into account (as you mentioned) that Perk didn't take many bad shots because he wasn't given the opportunity, then maybe (and again, I'm still not buying it) you could have an argument.  However, I think you're forgetting a number of things:

1) Jermaine O'Neal was asked to be the 2nd best player on the Heat.  Thus, he was expected to take a lot of shots.

2) While Doc will probably look to utilize whatever post game he has (because the C's are pretty desperate for one), simple basketball logistics state that even if Doc tries to utilize it more, he'll still get fewer shots than last year.  There's no way he can put up as many shots as he did last year when he's going to have to share the floor with 4 double digit scorers.  

3) I think you're letting our first round playoffs series influence your opinion about him too much.  I'm guessing that outside of that series and the games Boston played the Heat, you didn't see too many Heat games.  I'm thinking if we took Jermaine off that squad, inserted KG, and then made KG matchup with a defense as good as the Celtics upfront, with the teammates he had on the Heat, he probably would've had a pretty crappy series too.  (Let's also not forget that all of our superstars had some pretty crappy, and even crappy stretches of games, in the playoffs). 

4) Let's not forget what a dramatic difference O'Neal can make in other areas.  While he doesn't have three point range, he can spread the floor much better than Perk.  While he may have lost some athleticism, when Rondo or PP finds him under the basket, he will finish.  

I really expect Jermaine to find himself again here.  He did try to do too much at times last year.  I just don't see how that's going to happen here.  Stephon Marbury, despite sucking, bought into the team concept here.  I don't understand why you think that Jermaine won't.  Quite frankly, prior to this year, there really was no reason for him to shoot less since he was playing on mediocre teams that were expecting him to score a lot.  

#3 -- this is incorrect. I have watched Jermaine play somewhere between 125-150 games over the last three years. Watching the same flaws each year in different situations (Indiana, Toronto and Miami).

#1 -- Jermaine O'Neal was not asked to be the second best player in Miami + was not asked to create his own shot in Miami ... outside of that playoff series.

He only got as many touches and shot attempts in that series because their offense flat-lined and they lacked go-to options.

Miami did an outstanding job of limiting Jermaine's post touches and shot-creation responsibilities -- especially when you consider how limited their supporting cast was in that department.

#2 -- I do not expect Boston to do as a good job as Miami did in controlling Jermaine's offensive responsibilities. I also do not expect Boston to do as bad of a job as Toronto or Indiana did.

I have a tough time believing anyone watched 125-150 Pacers, Raptors, and Heat games, over the past three years, especially given that Jermaine only played in 191 games (including the playoffs) the past 3 years and even more especially when a lot of those games would've been on at the same time as the Celtics.  However, I'll take your word; you must DVR a lot of games. 

Still, I don't understand why you make the claims you do.

You say Jermaine wasn't the #2 option last year for the Heat.  Well then who was? 

You say that Miami did a good job of restraining him, but that we won't.  Why?  What did Miami magically do that we won't? 

This will be far and away the most talented team he's ever played on; he won't be asked to carry a load.  Even if Doc doesn't attempt to restrain him, the fact that he'll get the ball far less than he's ever had it (due to Rondo, Ray, PP, and KG) should pretty much control the situation itself. 

Since the Big Three have gotten here, we've had all sorts of alarmist reactions to guys like Sam Cassell, Stephon Marbury, Rasheed Wallace, and Nate Robinson.  And while there have been varying degrees of success with those guys, none of them came in here and disrupted what happened on the court. 

And given that Jermaine is far less of a polarizing figure than any of them, I don't see why you think he's going pull this team apart.