Should Jermaine come off the bench?

[Who]

Wherever Jermaine does the least amount of damage to the Celtics offense is where he should play.

That means wherever he'll be asked to create the least amount of his own offense (post ups). Likely with the starters.

Limit the damage as much as possible.

  Remember, he's replacing Perk. Are you expecting the switch from Perk to JO to damage our offense?

When Jermaine O'Neal plays off of others and finishes plays he is an effective offensive player. Someone who will score at a solid clip and with good-to-very good efficiency. Very good finisher around the rim and has a serviceable jump shot out to about 15-16 feet.

When Jermaine O'Neal is asked to create his own offense he becomes the most ineffective offensive player in the league. He is a poor passer, he spends too long on the ball and consequently creates stagnant offenses. In his one-on-one offense he also scores at a horribly inefficient rate. The combination of those two large negative contributions has a large negative effect on his teams offense. It's been this way for three years now.

The key to Jermaine O'Neal being a useful player versus a net negative is avoiding him creating his own offense. When he creates his own offense he hurts his own team. When Jermaine is asked to create offensively he negates his positives contributions (defense, rebounding, complementary offense).

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On this Celtics team, I have no confidence whatsoever about Jermaine being given and/or accepting his role.

After watching Glen Davis take advantage of a fairly equal opportunity offense and try to create his own offense last season + how desperate this team is for a low post presence with KG refusing to do so and Sheed retiring ... I am terrified of the role Jermaine O'Neal is going to have offensively for this team next season.

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Jermaine O'Neal is a much better fit alongside a ball dominating player like a Dwyane Wade or a Chris Paul. Someone who will spoon feed him like a child. Not let him screw up the team's offense by pretending he is still 25 and a talented go-to scorer.

There just really is no reason for this to be a concern, IMO  If you don't think Rondo and KG will be feeding him layup after layup I have to question which team you've been watching.  I mean comparing the feeds he got from Wade to Boston's passing is like going from chopped steak to Filet Mignon.  You aren't seriously suggesting that setups he got in Miami will be better than Boston are you?  Wade couldn't hold candle to Rondo in passing dept.  The addition of JO will make the offense infinetly better without question.

I am saying that a ball-dominating superstar who doesn't share the ball as well as the Celtics do is a better fit for Jermaine O'Neal.

It keeps him away from his own demons. Stops him from making as many mistakes.

[Who]

There are two types of baskets for Jermaine

• Finishing plays
• Creating his own offense

Miami Heat -- the Heat did a very good job of the first play (via Wade) and did a very good job of avoiding the second option for the overwhelming majority of the season.

Boston Celtics -- the Celtics will do a very good job in the first option but they will also facilitate the second option. They will allow, likely want, Jermaine to create his own offense out of the low post. Which Jermaine will love because he still thinks he can score 18-20ppg a night if his coach just called his number more often.

The fit is not the same and Jermaine's effectiveness as an offensive player, at this stage in his career, wholly comes down to fit.

[Birdbrain]

Wherever Jermaine does the least amount of damage to the Celtics offense is where he should play.

That means wherever he'll be asked to create the least amount of his own offense (post ups). Likely with the starters.

Limit the damage as much as possible.

  Remember, he's replacing Perk. Are you expecting the switch from Perk to JO to damage our offense?

When Jermaine O'Neal plays off of others and finishes plays he is an effective offensive player. Someone who will score at a solid clip and with good-to-very good efficiency. Very good finisher around the rim and has a serviceable jump shot out to about 15-16 feet.

When Jermaine O'Neal is asked to create his own offense he becomes the most ineffective offensive player in the league. He is a poor passer, he spends too long on the ball and consequently creates stagnant offenses. In his one-on-one offense he also scores at a horribly inefficient rate. The combination of those two large negative contributions has a large negative effect on his teams offense. It's been this way for three years now.

The key to Jermaine O'Neal being a useful player versus a net negative is avoiding him creating his own offense. When he creates his own offense he hurts his own team. When Jermaine is asked to create offensively he negates his positives contributions (defense, rebounding, complementary offense).

----------------------------------------------

On this Celtics team, I have no confidence whatsoever about Jermaine being given and/or accepting his role.

After watching Glen Davis take advantage of a fairly equal opportunity offense and try to create his own offense last season + how desperate this team is for a low post presence with KG refusing to do so and Sheed retiring ... I am terrified of the role Jermaine O'Neal is going to have offensively for this team next season.

------------------------------------------------

Jermaine O'Neal is a much better fit alongside a ball dominating player like a Dwyane Wade or a Chris Paul. Someone who will spoon feed him like a child. Not let him screw up the team's offense by pretending he is still 25 and a talented go-to scorer.

There just really is no reason for this to be a concern, IMO  If you don't think Rondo and KG will be feeding him layup after layup I have to question which team you've been watching.  I mean comparing the feeds he got from Wade to Boston's passing is like going from chopped steak to Filet Mignon.  You aren't seriously suggesting that setups he got in Miami will be better than Boston are you?  Wade couldn't hold candle to Rondo in passing dept.  The addition of JO will make the offense infinetly better without question.

How many times was Perkins, BBD, and other players allowed to post up? Quite a few, I think the team is likely to give O'Neal as least as many touches on the block.

Then there is also the question of will Jermaine pass the ball quickly and correctly. There is reason for concern, though I don't share Who's dire outlook.

Sure you can be worried about anything but, worrying about the C's offense with JO replacing Perkins is akin to being upset at the Tax you have to pay for Winning the Lotto. I think there are bigger fish to worry about.

[Rtpas11]

lol no way!!! he should start... unless Shaq comes here... K.G. can't play Center

[Birdbrain]

Wherever Jermaine does the least amount of damage to the Celtics offense is where he should play.

That means wherever he'll be asked to create the least amount of his own offense (post ups). Likely with the starters.

Limit the damage as much as possible.

  Remember, he's replacing Perk. Are you expecting the switch from Perk to JO to damage our offense?

When Jermaine O'Neal plays off of others and finishes plays he is an effective offensive player. Someone who will score at a solid clip and with good-to-very good efficiency. Very good finisher around the rim and has a serviceable jump shot out to about 15-16 feet.

When Jermaine O'Neal is asked to create his own offense he becomes the most ineffective offensive player in the league. He is a poor passer, he spends too long on the ball and consequently creates stagnant offenses. In his one-on-one offense he also scores at a horribly inefficient rate. The combination of those two large negative contributions has a large negative effect on his teams offense. It's been this way for three years now.

The key to Jermaine O'Neal being a useful player versus a net negative is avoiding him creating his own offense. When he creates his own offense he hurts his own team. When Jermaine is asked to create offensively he negates his positives contributions (defense, rebounding, complementary offense).

----------------------------------------------

On this Celtics team, I have no confidence whatsoever about Jermaine being given and/or accepting his role.

After watching Glen Davis take advantage of a fairly equal opportunity offense and try to create his own offense last season + how desperate this team is for a low post presence with KG refusing to do so and Sheed retiring ... I am terrified of the role Jermaine O'Neal is going to have offensively for this team next season.

------------------------------------------------

Jermaine O'Neal is a much better fit alongside a ball dominating player like a Dwyane Wade or a Chris Paul. Someone who will spoon feed him like a child. Not let him screw up the team's offense by pretending he is still 25 and a talented go-to scorer.

There just really is no reason for this to be a concern, IMO  If you don't think Rondo and KG will be feeding him layup after layup I have to question which team you've been watching.  I mean comparing the feeds he got from Wade to Boston's passing is like going from chopped steak to Filet Mignon.  You aren't seriously suggesting that setups he got in Miami will be better than Boston are you?  Wade couldn't hold candle to Rondo in passing dept.  The addition of JO will make the offense infinetly better without question.

I am saying that a ball-dominating superstar who doesn't share the ball as well as the Celtics do is a better fit for Jermaine O'Neal.

It keeps him away from his own demons. Stops him from making as many mistakes.

Your concept is either going over my head or there is no factual basis for it.  JO is without a doubt a much better offensive player than Perkins (FINISHING, CATCHING..) You almost appear to be making the point that a worse player would be better for the C's so they would have one less option.  Too many cooks in the kitchen concept, I suppose that's something someone could find to worry about.  If so I disagree but, too each his own.

[Fafnir]

Your concept is either going over my head or there is no factual basis for it.  JO is without a doubt a much better offensive player than Perkins (FINISHING, CATCHING..) You almost appear to be making the point that a worse player would be better for the C's so they would have one less option.  Too many cooks in the kitchen concept, I suppose that's something someone could find to worry about.  If so I disagree but, too each his own.

What's confusing about what he's saying? A player can be an effective garbage offense man, like a Perkins, an Anderson Varejo, or Jermain O'Neal, and still be ineffective at creating his own offense.

Just because a player can make easy shots doesn't mean he won't take lots and lots of bad shots if given the opportunity.

[Who]

Wherever Jermaine does the least amount of damage to the Celtics offense is where he should play.

That means wherever he'll be asked to create the least amount of his own offense (post ups). Likely with the starters.

Limit the damage as much as possible.

  Remember, he's replacing Perk. Are you expecting the switch from Perk to JO to damage our offense?

When Jermaine O'Neal plays off of others and finishes plays he is an effective offensive player. Someone who will score at a solid clip and with good-to-very good efficiency. Very good finisher around the rim and has a serviceable jump shot out to about 15-16 feet.

When Jermaine O'Neal is asked to create his own offense he becomes the most ineffective offensive player in the league. He is a poor passer, he spends too long on the ball and consequently creates stagnant offenses. In his one-on-one offense he also scores at a horribly inefficient rate. The combination of those two large negative contributions has a large negative effect on his teams offense. It's been this way for three years now.

The key to Jermaine O'Neal being a useful player versus a net negative is avoiding him creating his own offense. When he creates his own offense he hurts his own team. When Jermaine is asked to create offensively he negates his positives contributions (defense, rebounding, complementary offense).

----------------------------------------------

On this Celtics team, I have no confidence whatsoever about Jermaine being given and/or accepting his role.

After watching Glen Davis take advantage of a fairly equal opportunity offense and try to create his own offense last season + how desperate this team is for a low post presence with KG refusing to do so and Sheed retiring ... I am terrified of the role Jermaine O'Neal is going to have offensively for this team next season.

------------------------------------------------

Jermaine O'Neal is a much better fit alongside a ball dominating player like a Dwyane Wade or a Chris Paul. Someone who will spoon feed him like a child. Not let him screw up the team's offense by pretending he is still 25 and a talented go-to scorer.

There just really is no reason for this to be a concern, IMO  If you don't think Rondo and KG will be feeding him layup after layup I have to question which team you've been watching.  I mean comparing the feeds he got from Wade to Boston's passing is like going from chopped steak to Filet Mignon.  You aren't seriously suggesting that setups he got in Miami will be better than Boston are you?  Wade couldn't hold candle to Rondo in passing dept.  The addition of JO will make the offense infinetly better without question.

I am saying that a ball-dominating superstar who doesn't share the ball as well as the Celtics do is a better fit for Jermaine O'Neal.

It keeps him away from his own demons. Stops him from making as many mistakes.

Your concept is either going over my head or there is no factual basis for it.  JO is without a doubt a much better offensive player than Perkins (FINISHING, CATCHING..) You almost appear to be making the point that a worse player would be better for the C's so they would have one less option.  Too many cooks in the kitchen concept, I suppose that's something someone could find to worry about.  If so I disagree but, too each his own.

I'm not explaining myself well. It's my fault. I'll try to think of a better way to explain my concerns.

Red -- Fully agree
Green -- Not really. Sort of but not really.

It's more about one player who is very bad at something and should avoid doing that at all times ... but who will unfortunately, likely be asked, and will receive opportunities, to do that something. And those attempts at that something will hurt the team badly every time he attempts it.

Asking Jermaine O'Neal to create his own offense in the low post is like asking Shaquille O'Neal to shoot three pointers ... both cause great damage to one's offense.

[BballTim]

Wherever Jermaine does the least amount of damage to the Celtics offense is where he should play.

That means wherever he'll be asked to create the least amount of his own offense (post ups). Likely with the starters.

Limit the damage as much as possible.

  Remember, he's replacing Perk. Are you expecting the switch from Perk to JO to damage our offense?

When Jermaine O'Neal plays off of others and finishes plays he is an effective offensive player. Someone who will score at a solid clip and with good-to-very good efficiency. Very good finisher around the rim and has a serviceable jump shot out to about 15-16 feet.

When Jermaine O'Neal is asked to create his own offense he becomes the most ineffective offensive player in the league. He is a poor passer, he spends too long on the ball and consequently creates stagnant offenses. In his one-on-one offense he also scores at a horribly inefficient rate. The combination of those two large negative contributions has a large negative effect on his teams offense. It's been this way for three years now.

The key to Jermaine O'Neal being a useful player versus a net negative is avoiding him creating his own offense. When he creates his own offense he hurts his own team. When Jermaine is asked to create offensively he negates his positives contributions (defense, rebounding, complementary offense).

----------------------------------------------

On this Celtics team, I have no confidence whatsoever about Jermaine being given and/or accepting his role.

After watching Glen Davis take advantage of a fairly equal opportunity offense and try to create his own offense last season + how desperate this team is for a low post presence with KG refusing to do so and Sheed retiring ... I am terrified of the role Jermaine O'Neal is going to have offensively for this team next season.

------------------------------------------------

Jermaine O'Neal is a much better fit alongside a ball dominating player like a Dwyane Wade or a Chris Paul. Someone who will spoon feed him like a child. Not let him screw up the team's offense by pretending he is still 25 and a talented go-to scorer.

There just really is no reason for this to be a concern, IMO  If you don't think Rondo and KG will be feeding him layup after layup I have to question which team you've been watching.  I mean comparing the feeds he got from Wade to Boston's passing is like going from chopped steak to Filet Mignon.  You aren't seriously suggesting that setups he got in Miami will be better than Boston are you?  Wade couldn't hold candle to Rondo in passing dept.  The addition of JO will make the offense infinetly better without question.

I am saying that a ball-dominating superstar who doesn't share the ball as well as the Celtics do is a better fit for Jermaine O'Neal.

It keeps him away from his own demons. Stops him from making as many mistakes.

  To be fair, I don't think the Celts shared the ball with Perk all that much. I don't think JO will see a lot of the ball if he tries to do too much offensively.

[Celtics18]

Jermaine O'Neal will be the starter at center.

I also think that Semih Erden may surprise everybody (except me) and get some significant and productive minutes this year.

[snively]

JO should come off the bench and play the KG role there once Perk comes back.  Post-up or face-up if there's a weak defensive match-up, if not pick and pop or float to the perimeter for the J.

[fairweatherfan06]

Actually I think this could happen if Shaq is signed.  Shaq could start but Jermaine would get the majority of the minutes, especially towards the end of games when free throw shooting becomes more important.

[Jon]

Unless Shaq comes and until Perk comes back, JO will be our starter.  That's not to say there aren't merits to some of your arguments.  But Doc isn't going to bench a 6-time All Star to play a 6-7 guy at center. 

[PosImpos]

Did anybody here watch the Celtics last year?

Perk was our only option down low (neither KG nor Sheed posted up consistently) and he thought he could score for the majority of the season; Perk did have a high fg%, but that was in part because he committed a LOT of turnovers when he got the ball in the post (never got a chance to make a field goal attempt).  One of the Celtics' biggest weaknesses last year was that one of their least talented offensive players was their primary post option.

How could Jermaine O'Neal be worse than that?  Jermaine can't score 20 ppg anymore but he's still been averaging around 14 ppg, a number Perk could probably never reach with any efficiency.  Jermaine can also hit a mid-range jumpshot, something Perk certainly can't do.

I really don't buy this "Jermaine will make our offense worse" argument.  If the guy he's replacing were an effective offensive player, I would agree.  But he's not.  Jermaine is actually an upgrade offensively.  I get what Who is saying - that Jermaine is no longer any good at creating his own offense, though he's still a more than adequate garbage finisher.  Hmm, who does that sound like?  Perkins is just as bad at creating his offense, if not worse.  The biggest question marks for O'Neal are not his ability to create offense, but rather his health and his defensive ability.

If he's dealing with injuries for part or most of the season, then forget about it...we all saw in the playoffs how awful Jermaine can be when he plays hurt.  On the other hand, Perk played hurt for the second half of the season and he wasn't very good, either.

So in summary, our offense will be just fine with Jermaine starting.  As long as he's healthy, at worst he's about the same as Perk only with a mid-range jumpshot.  That actually sounds pretty good to me.

[Jon]

Did anybody here watch the Celtics last year?

Perk was our only option down low (neither KG nor Sheed posted up consistently) and he thought he could score for the majority of the season; Perk did have a high fg%, but that was in part because he committed a LOT of turnovers when he got the ball in the post (never got a chance to make a field goal attempt).  One of the Celtics' biggest weaknesses last year was that one of their least talented offensive players was their primary post option.

How could Jermaine O'Neal be worse than that?  Jermaine can't score 20 ppg anymore but he's still been averaging around 14 ppg, a number Perk could probably never reach with any efficiency.  Jermaine can also hit a mid-range jumpshot, something Perk certainly can't do.

I really don't buy this "Jermaine will make our offense worse" argument.  If the guy he's replacing were an effective offensive player, I would agree.  But he's not.  Jermaine is actually an upgrade offensively.  I get what Who is saying - that Jermaine is no longer any good at creating his own offense, though he's still a more than adequate garbage finisher.  Hmm, who does that sound like?  Perkins is just as bad at creating his offense, if not worse.  The biggest question marks for O'Neal are not his ability to create offense, but rather his health and his defensive ability.

If he's dealing with injuries for part or most of the season, then forget about it...we all saw in the playoffs how awful Jermaine can be when he plays hurt.  On the other hand, Perk played hurt for the second half of the season and he wasn't very good, either.

So in summary, our offense will be just fine with Jermaine starting.  As long as he's healthy, at worst he's about the same as Perk only with a mid-range jumpshot.  That actually sounds pretty good to me.

I'd say the vast majority of posters on this board agree with that and those who don't are very much in the minority. 

[Who]

I get what Who is saying - that Jermaine is no longer any good at creating his own offense, though he's still a more than adequate garbage finisher.  Hmm, who does that sound like?  Perkins is just as bad at creating his offense, if not worse.  

I regard Perk as the superior post scorer (creating his own offense) ... here's how I would rate them.

Both players kill their team's offensive rhythm due to their lack of recognition + passing + slowness of their moves. Both players are turnover problems. The only difference is that Perkins is a lot more efficient at finishing his shot attempts out of the post. Jermaine has more moves down there but he doesn't finish enough of them to create an advantage there.

Not only is Jermaine a worse post scorer than Perkins ... he doubles up the problem by being more aggressive and using more possessions (in an ineffective manner) than Perk does. Creating an even larger negative contribution for his team.

Neither player is good enough to be a go-to option for their team.