Shaq wants to be a Celtic

[MBunge]

Shaq's worth to a contended is a lot closer to the 1.35 vet minimum for a player with 10+ years of service than it is to the MLE. If he fails to grasp that, he's either going to be jobless this season, or will go to a horrible team.

Once again

Shaq - 12 points, 6.7 rebounds, 1.2 blocks, 23.4 minutes regular season.
     - 11.5 points, 5.5 rebounds, 1.2 blocks, 22.1 minutes playoffs.

A 7 foot backup center who will probably give you 10 points, 5 boards and a block in just under 20 minutes a game IS NOT a vet min player.  If you could get Shaq for that, great!  But he's clearly worth more.

Mike

You are only worth what someone is willing to pay you and it's fairly evident from media reports that there is not a team in the league that is willing to pay him above the LLE or $2 million a year. So it doesn't matter what his stats are, if no one is willing to pay him more than $2 million a year, then he isn't worth more than that.

It's not that teams are unwilling.  It's that they can't offer Shaq more that that.  Why should Ainge be in any hurry to swap Sheed's deal and probably a pick for Shaq, when there's no other contender that can offer him or the Cavs anything close to that?  You can't say "the market has spoken" where there are essentially price controls in place.

And I'll bet money that if Shaq ends up with Boston, Miami will come to greatly regret they were in such a hurry to spend their leftover salary cap room on Mike Miller and Udonis Haslem.

Mike

Actually, no. The team's are unwilling. Atlanta signed Josh Powell rather than sign and trade for Shaq. Houston went with Brad Miller when they had the MLE to offer Shaq. Boston went with Jermaine. Dallas - Iam Mahinmi. New Jersey - Johan Petro. New Orleans - Aaron Gray. Miami - Joel Anthony and Zydrunas Ilgauskas. San Antonio - Matt Bonner. Minnesota - Darko Milicic.

Teams are just unwilling to spend money on him so he is worth whatever he gets. If that is the min or LLE, then so be it. That's what he is worth.

Uh, pointing out that teams are being stupid with other players doesn't prove they're being smart when it comes to Shaq.

Mike

[hpantazo]

Shaq's not replacing Perk.  He's replacing Sheed as back up center.  Which means that Boston would be swapping a slight downgrade defensively for better rebounding and a more consistent and less disruptive offensive production.  I doubt Shaq will be goint 0-5 on 3 pointer anytime next year.

"Slight downgrade defensively"? Understatement of the year. Rasheed, even at his current age, is a versatile post defender, who is able to guard both 4s and 5s, blocks shots, and gets a ton of steals for a guy his size.

If you call tossing the ball to Shaq and watching him go to "work" while 4 other people are twiddling their thumbs "less disruptive", I can but rest my case. You won't be convinced.

you forgot to add that Sheed spreads the floor on offense with his outside shot, while Shaq clogs the floor on offense. I would much rather have Sheed playing another year than any other big man that we may be able to trade him for.

[nickagneta]

Shaq's worth to a contended is a lot closer to the 1.35 vet minimum for a player with 10+ years of service than it is to the MLE. If he fails to grasp that, he's either going to be jobless this season, or will go to a horrible team.

Once again

Shaq - 12 points, 6.7 rebounds, 1.2 blocks, 23.4 minutes regular season.
     - 11.5 points, 5.5 rebounds, 1.2 blocks, 22.1 minutes playoffs.

A 7 foot backup center who will probably give you 10 points, 5 boards and a block in just under 20 minutes a game IS NOT a vet min player.  If you could get Shaq for that, great!  But he's clearly worth more.

Mike

You are only worth what someone is willing to pay you and it's fairly evident from media reports that there is not a team in the league that is willing to pay him above the LLE or $2 million a year. So it doesn't matter what his stats are, if no one is willing to pay him more than $2 million a year, then he isn't worth more than that.

It's not that teams are unwilling.  It's that they can't offer Shaq more that that.  Why should Ainge be in any hurry to swap Sheed's deal and probably a pick for Shaq, when there's no other contender that can offer him or the Cavs anything close to that?  You can't say "the market has spoken" where there are essentially price controls in place.

And I'll bet money that if Shaq ends up with Boston, Miami will come to greatly regret they were in such a hurry to spend their leftover salary cap room on Mike Miller and Udonis Haslem.

Mike

Actually, no. The team's are unwilling. Atlanta signed Josh Powell rather than sign and trade for Shaq. Houston went with Brad Miller when they had the MLE to offer Shaq. Boston went with Jermaine. Dallas - Iam Mahinmi. New Jersey - Johan Petro. New Orleans - Aaron Gray. Miami - Joel Anthony and Zydrunas Ilgauskas. San Antonio - Matt Bonner. Minnesota - Darko Milicic.

Teams are just unwilling to spend money on him so he is worth whatever he gets. If that is the min or LLE, then so be it. That's what he is worth.

Uh, pointing out that teams are being stupid with other players doesn't prove they're being smart when it comes to Shaq.

Mike

I see. So 30 GMs that get paid millions to do what they do are stupid and you're brilliant. That always helps the discussion and proves your point.

[MBunge]

First, did you miss the part where he was asking for $8 million per season and a guaranteed starter spot?

Second, as far as benefiting is concerned, Shaq is not Leon Powe who's going to give you 10 points out there out of thin air. So if Shaq is scoring 10 points, he was out there long enough that at least 10 plays were ran for him. To reiterate what I said before, if we're "benefitting" from Shaq in this way, we're in trouble.

Also, while it might be easy to think in absolutes, things rarely are. In this particular case, if the choice is between signing Mikki Moore and Aaron Gray to the vet minimum, and using Sheed's contract to acquire a competent third wing, and using Sheed's contract in a sign and trade for Shaq and signing someone like Mike Finley for the wing rotation... I'm sorry to say that the first scenario is no contest for me.

As far as the facts are concerned ... it is a fact that the Cleveland Cavaliers were a  better team with Shaq off the floor than they were with him on. From there on, no matter how you slice it, it still boils down to the fact that he is not spending assets on. That is all.

If Shaq wants 8 mil and a starting spot, I wouldn't want Boston to give that to him.  That's not the same as insisting Shaq's only worth a vet min deal.

So, a guy who can score when you run plays for him is useless on a basketball team?  Shaq's scoring average last season - 12 points.  Leon Powe's career scoring average? 6 points.

I ALREADY SAID I'D RATHER HAVE JOSH HOWARD THAN SHAQ!  That's not what we're arguing about.  My point is that getting Shaq and Moon or Parker would be a pretty good deal, better than a lot of the other possiblities.

And last year the Celtics were a better team with Wallace off the floor than they were with him on it?  What's the point?

Mike

[MBunge]

Shaq's not replacing Perk.  He's replacing Sheed as back up center.  Which means that Boston would be swapping a slight downgrade defensively for better rebounding and a more consistent and less disruptive offensive production.  I doubt Shaq will be goint 0-5 on 3 pointer anytime next year.

"Slight downgrade defensively"? Understatement of the year. Rasheed, even at his current age, is a versatile post defender, who is able to guard both 4s and 5s, blocks shots, and gets a ton of steals for a guy his size.

If you call tossing the ball to Shaq and watching him go to "work" while 4 other people are twiddling their thumbs "less disruptive", I can but rest my case. You won't be convinced.

Sheed is also a bad rebounder.  Gee, good thing that wasn't a problem for the team.  He also shot 40% from the field, compared to Shaq's 56%.

Mike

[MBunge]

Shaq's worth to a contended is a lot closer to the 1.35 vet minimum for a player with 10+ years of service than it is to the MLE. If he fails to grasp that, he's either going to be jobless this season, or will go to a horrible team.

Once again

Shaq - 12 points, 6.7 rebounds, 1.2 blocks, 23.4 minutes regular season.
     - 11.5 points, 5.5 rebounds, 1.2 blocks, 22.1 minutes playoffs.

A 7 foot backup center who will probably give you 10 points, 5 boards and a block in just under 20 minutes a game IS NOT a vet min player.  If you could get Shaq for that, great!  But he's clearly worth more.

Mike

You are only worth what someone is willing to pay you and it's fairly evident from media reports that there is not a team in the league that is willing to pay him above the LLE or $2 million a year. So it doesn't matter what his stats are, if no one is willing to pay him more than $2 million a year, then he isn't worth more than that.

It's not that teams are unwilling.  It's that they can't offer Shaq more that that.  Why should Ainge be in any hurry to swap Sheed's deal and probably a pick for Shaq, when there's no other contender that can offer him or the Cavs anything close to that?  You can't say "the market has spoken" where there are essentially price controls in place.

And I'll bet money that if Shaq ends up with Boston, Miami will come to greatly regret they were in such a hurry to spend their leftover salary cap room on Mike Miller and Udonis Haslem.

Mike

Actually, no. The team's are unwilling. Atlanta signed Josh Powell rather than sign and trade for Shaq. Houston went with Brad Miller when they had the MLE to offer Shaq. Boston went with Jermaine. Dallas - Iam Mahinmi. New Jersey - Johan Petro. New Orleans - Aaron Gray. Miami - Joel Anthony and Zydrunas Ilgauskas. San Antonio - Matt Bonner. Minnesota - Darko Milicic.

Teams are just unwilling to spend money on him so he is worth whatever he gets. If that is the min or LLE, then so be it. That's what he is worth.

Uh, pointing out that teams are being stupid with other players doesn't prove they're being smart when it comes to Shaq.

Mike

I see. So 30 GMs that get paid millions to do what they do are stupid and you're brilliant. That always helps the discussion and proves your point.

-

Houston signed Brad Miller to 3 years, 15 million dollars.  Do you think Brad Miller is worth 3 YEARS, 15 MILLION DOLLARS?  Do you think Rashard Lewis is worth his contract?  Do you think Gilbert Arenas is worth his?  Testifying to the intelligence of NBA GMs is a pretty dubious thing to do.

Mike

[hpantazo]

Shaq's not replacing Perk.  He's replacing Sheed as back up center.  Which means that Boston would be swapping a slight downgrade defensively for better rebounding and a more consistent and less disruptive offensive production.  I doubt Shaq will be goint 0-5 on 3 pointer anytime next year.

"Slight downgrade defensively"? Understatement of the year. Rasheed, even at his current age, is a versatile post defender, who is able to guard both 4s and 5s, blocks shots, and gets a ton of steals for a guy his size.

If you call tossing the ball to Shaq and watching him go to "work" while 4 other people are twiddling their thumbs "less disruptive", I can but rest my case. You won't be convinced.

Sheed is also a bad rebounder.  Gee, good thing that wasn't a problem for the team.  He also shot 40% from the field, compared to Shaq's 56%.

Mike

Sheed spread the floor on offense, was an excellent post defender, and our best post up option. Without him, we would not have made it to game 7 of the finals, or even the finals altogether.

[MBunge]

Shaq's not replacing Perk.  He's replacing Sheed as back up center.  Which means that Boston would be swapping a slight downgrade defensively for better rebounding and a more consistent and less disruptive offensive production.  I doubt Shaq will be goint 0-5 on 3 pointer anytime next year.

"Slight downgrade defensively"? Understatement of the year. Rasheed, even at his current age, is a versatile post defender, who is able to guard both 4s and 5s, blocks shots, and gets a ton of steals for a guy his size.

If you call tossing the ball to Shaq and watching him go to "work" while 4 other people are twiddling their thumbs "less disruptive", I can but rest my case. You won't be convinced.

Sheed is also a bad rebounder.  Gee, good thing that wasn't a problem for the team.  He also shot 40% from the field, compared to Shaq's 56%.

Mike

Sheed spread the floor on offense, was an excellent post defender, and our best post up option. Without him, we would not have made it to game 7 of the finals, or even the finals altogether.

Sheed shot less than 30% from behind the arc during the regular season and in the finals.  Shaq would also be a better post up option.

Mike

[hpantazo]

Shaq's not replacing Perk.  He's replacing Sheed as back up center.  Which means that Boston would be swapping a slight downgrade defensively for better rebounding and a more consistent and less disruptive offensive production.  I doubt Shaq will be goint 0-5 on 3 pointer anytime next year.

"Slight downgrade defensively"? Understatement of the year. Rasheed, even at his current age, is a versatile post defender, who is able to guard both 4s and 5s, blocks shots, and gets a ton of steals for a guy his size.

If you call tossing the ball to Shaq and watching him go to "work" while 4 other people are twiddling their thumbs "less disruptive", I can but rest my case. You won't be convinced.

Sheed is also a bad rebounder.  Gee, good thing that wasn't a problem for the team.  He also shot 40% from the field, compared to Shaq's 56%.

Mike

Sheed spread the floor on offense, was an excellent post defender, and our best post up option. Without him, we would not have made it to game 7 of the finals, or even the finals altogether.

Sheed shot less than 30% from behind the arc during the regular season and in the finals.  Shaq would also be a better post up option.

Mike

Sheed spread the floor, creating space for guys like Pierce, Ray, and Rondo to operate, while Shaq clogs up the middle and does the opposite for the other guys on the floor with him. This, and the fact that he can't defend the pick and roll if his life depended on it, are the two biggest problems with getting Shaq, and two things that Sheed was much better at than him. Shaq killed the Suns offense, and the cavs were much better with him on the bench. Sheed was a big reason why the celtics got to the finals, and why they had a chance in game 7.

[Jon]

Shaq's not replacing Perk.  He's replacing Sheed as back up center.  Which means that Boston would be swapping a slight downgrade defensively for better rebounding and a more consistent and less disruptive offensive production.  I doubt Shaq will be goint 0-5 on 3 pointer anytime next year.

"Slight downgrade defensively"? Understatement of the year. Rasheed, even at his current age, is a versatile post defender, who is able to guard both 4s and 5s, blocks shots, and gets a ton of steals for a guy his size.

If you call tossing the ball to Shaq and watching him go to "work" while 4 other people are twiddling their thumbs "less disruptive", I can but rest my case. You won't be convinced.

Sheed is also a bad rebounder.  Gee, good thing that wasn't a problem for the team.  He also shot 40% from the field, compared to Shaq's 56%.

Mike

Sheed spread the floor on offense, was an excellent post defender, and our best post up option. Without him, we would not have made it to game 7 of the finals, or even the finals altogether.

Sheed shot less than 30% from behind the arc during the regular season and in the finals.  Shaq would also be a better post up option.

Mike

Sheed spread the floor, creating space for guys like Pierce, Ray, and Rondo to operate, while Shaq clogs up the middle and does the opposite for the other guys on the floor with him. This, and the fact that he can't defend the pick and roll if his life depended on it, are the two biggest problems with getting Shaq, and two things that Sheed was much better at than him. Shaq killed the Suns offense, and the cavs were much better with him on the bench. Sheed was a big reason why the celtics got to the finals, and why they had a chance in game 7.

True.  But what about Perk?  He had no range, his man constantly rotated off of him, and often when Rondo or KG found him open down low, he'd botch the layup/dunk becaue he'd insist on dribbing the ball once first. 

Our offense still functioned fine with him.  With Shaq, teams will either have to stay home on him, opening up things for everyone else OR they'll play him like Perk.  However, if they play him like Perk, he's going to shoot 80%+ because, unlike Perk, Shaq can finish under the basket. 

[hpantazo]

Shaq's not replacing Perk.  He's replacing Sheed as back up center.  Which means that Boston would be swapping a slight downgrade defensively for better rebounding and a more consistent and less disruptive offensive production.  I doubt Shaq will be goint 0-5 on 3 pointer anytime next year.

"Slight downgrade defensively"? Understatement of the year. Rasheed, even at his current age, is a versatile post defender, who is able to guard both 4s and 5s, blocks shots, and gets a ton of steals for a guy his size.

If you call tossing the ball to Shaq and watching him go to "work" while 4 other people are twiddling their thumbs "less disruptive", I can but rest my case. You won't be convinced.

Sheed is also a bad rebounder.  Gee, good thing that wasn't a problem for the team.  He also shot 40% from the field, compared to Shaq's 56%.

Mike

Sheed spread the floor on offense, was an excellent post defender, and our best post up option. Without him, we would not have made it to game 7 of the finals, or even the finals altogether.

Sheed shot less than 30% from behind the arc during the regular season and in the finals.  Shaq would also be a better post up option.

Mike

Sheed spread the floor, creating space for guys like Pierce, Ray, and Rondo to operate, while Shaq clogs up the middle and does the opposite for the other guys on the floor with him. This, and the fact that he can't defend the pick and roll if his life depended on it, are the two biggest problems with getting Shaq, and two things that Sheed was much better at than him. Shaq killed the Suns offense, and the cavs were much better with him on the bench. Sheed was a big reason why the celtics got to the finals, and why they had a chance in game 7.

True.  But what about Perk?  He had no range, his man constantly rotated off of him, and often when Rondo or KG found him open down low, he'd botch the layup/dunk becaue he'd insist on dribbing the ball once first. 

Our offense still functioned fine with him.  With Shaq, teams will either have to stay home on him, opening up things for everyone else OR they'll play him like Perk.  However, if they play him like Perk, he's going to shoot 80%+ because, unlike Perk, Shaq can finish under the basket. 

Perk drove me nuts for years with his habit of bringing the ball down before shooting it. Our offense did not function well with him at all, his presence on the floor severely hurt our offense. He made up for it with his defense though and we lived with it. I think having Jermaine Oneal play major minutes with the starters will make clear just how badly Perk hurt our offense.

[DavorCroatiaFan]

Wallace, BBD, Gaffney, Lafayette and some draft picks to CLE
Shaq (8mil/2 years), Parker, Moon and Powe to BOS.
Its gives us the best bench in the league:
RONDO/ROBINSON/BRADLEY
ALLEN/PARKER/BRADLEY
PIERCE/DANIELS/MOON
GARNETT/POWE/HARANGODY
J.O'NEAL/S.O'NEAL/*PERKINS*/ERDEN

[LooseCannon]

Shaq's not replacing Perk.  He's replacing Sheed as back up center.  Which means that Boston would be swapping a slight downgrade defensively for better rebounding and a more consistent and less disruptive offensive production.  I doubt Shaq will be goint 0-5 on 3 pointer anytime next year.

Actually, I'd take it a step further and say Shaq is replacing Luke Harangody or a minimum level backup, because Sheed doesn't appear to be an option.

Harangody is not a center.  Acquiring Shaq pushes Semih Erden down the depth chart so that the "Great Wall of Turkey" isn't getting 10 mpg.

[2dark]

As usually the truth is somewhere in the middle, if it comes down to vet min apsolutely no one would say no to a HoFer (imagine having 4 future hall of famers in the same starting lineup? ), but if it comes to 8/2 with added demans (mpg and starrting position) that is another story.
In my opinion there will be major earthquakes later this season when situation with primadonnas starts to take shape, and I bet that there will be better options to spent sheeds contract in feb deadline than now.

[GreenFaith1819]

Wow!

Almost 20 pages for this thread.....

According to this article, http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2010/07/26/will-shaq-for-food/

ATL is still looking at him. If there's any potential here in Shaq wearing Green, we'd better do it soon..