Shaq wants to be a Celtic

[Birdbrain]

Firstly, Perk is a huge factor in Boston's lack of offensive efficiency.  That's because his lack of production or even potential to produce offense forces the other 4 players on the court to compensate.

  We aren't a very inefficient offensive team, and our inefficiency is due mainly to turnovers and a lack of offensive rebounding. Shaq won't help a ton with either of these situations. He'll help a little with the offense, especially late in the clock, but I don't think he'll make us much more efficient. 

actually, we are quite an average offensive team that tends to sputter at times and get red-hot at other times. the reason we're so good is that league-best defense.

and Perk is not a good offensive player and not comparable to Shaq. It's not that Shaq is still dominating. It's just that Perk is a poor offensive player. i don't think Perk has ever drawn a double team in his career while Shaq will still command a double team at times at his age. On top of that, he can pass very well out of the post. Give Shaq the kind of touches that Perk got last year and i bet he'll turn it over a lot less and convert a lot more.



- LilRip

Actually just the opposite we were very efficient offensive team that turned the ball over too much and didn't get enough defensive rebounds.  top 5 FG%, top 2 assists.  And even the TOs are stat can be misleading. Most of Rondos TOs are plays that 99% of NBA won't even try.  Should he try less maybe but, he has the talent to make the plays.  We lost game 7 of the Finals in LA because we couldn't grab a defensive rebound (after playing the best defense all year) and Ray Allen building a brick house.

Yes the rebounds hurt but we lost game 7 for a number of reasons. Being up 13, LA started getting awarded trips to the line and we could've kept up with them had our offense not stalled. Yes, we have a complicated and effective offense and yet, we're very turnover prone (not to mention that our offense stalls from time to time)

point is, we're not a great offensive team.

I'm kinda preoccupied right now so i can't be bothered to verify the stats but i'd figure we're on the lower end of FGA and FTA. and since it's probably Rondo who takes the most FT's in our team (because who gets to the line other than him and Pierce?), we probably don't have a great FT% either. I'm also almost sure we're the absolute worst at O-Rebs (and perhaps also Total Rebounding). and i'd think that we're one of the more turnover-prone teams. Combine high-turnover numbers with a low FGA and low O-Reb with an inability to get the line... and voila! you have a bad offensive team. It's because each miss/turnover of ours means a lot more than a miss/turnover to say, a team like Phoenix or LA. Fortunately, great FG% is our saving grace and that's why i think we're average when it comes to offense.



- LilRip

You don't have to bother Boston was the top or near top team in FG% all year.  As well as assists.  FT% middle of the pack.  Defensive and offensive rebound (misleading due to high FG%) near the bottom or bottom.  Actually I disagree with your overall premise while we aren't the top offensive team in the league we are good offensive team that plays great defense.

[kozlodoev]

Shaq is beyond horrible on pick-n-rolls, but I don't think he's nearly as bad on defensive rotations inside the paint.

Maybe if he doesn't have to move more than 2 feet in either direction. And even if we only considered pick-and-roll defense... have you seen how Celtic big men are asked to defend the pick and roll?

You can throw Shaq's stats from last season all you want. All I can tell you is that if we're planning to depend on Shaq to give us even 10 points and 5 rebounds per game, we're not going to make it to the finals. It didn't work in Phoenix, it didn't work in Cleveland, and it's not going to work in Boston.

[BballTim]

Marcin Gortat got the full MLE and averaged 3 points and 4 rebounds for Orlando last year.

So because the Magic were idiots and overpaid Gortat, it's going to be ok if we do it with Shaq? Interesting logic.

Again, Shaq averaged 12 points, 6.7 rebounds and 1.2 blocks on 23 minutes a game last season.  No matter how bad his pick-n-roll defense is, you think THAT'S only worth a vet min contract?

Mike  

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tiny.cgi?id=Q8dos

To compare the two O'Neals. Shaqs problems are in the amount of minutes he'll demand and his overall poor defense. He's not going to accept being a backup C to Perkins or O'Neal.

How is Shaquille O'Neals defense poor? 

Comparing Shaq to Perkins:
http://www.82games.com/0910/09CLE18.HTM
http://www.82games.com/0910/09BOS19.HTM

Their respective PER rating (in 48min span) is 20 for Shaq and 17 for Perkins.  Conversely Shaq held opposing centers to a PER of 14.2 and Perkins held opposing centers to 16.6.  Just looking at that, it seems Shaq was better on offense AND defense last year.  Again, it is all about fit for the team, and I think Shaq fits in well with this team.  Besides, who are you realistically going to get??

  One of the reasons LeBron has trouble getting to the hoop vs Boston is because Perk's behind PP ready to help shut down LeBron's path to the hoop. Would Shaq be able to fill in that role?

  Hint: Rondo will tell you he can't.

[Spilling Green Dye]

Marcin Gortat got the full MLE and averaged 3 points and 4 rebounds for Orlando last year.

So because the Magic were idiots and overpaid Gortat, it's going to be ok if we do it with Shaq? Interesting logic.

Again, Shaq averaged 12 points, 6.7 rebounds and 1.2 blocks on 23 minutes a game last season.  No matter how bad his pick-n-roll defense is, you think THAT'S only worth a vet min contract?

Mike  

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tiny.cgi?id=Q8dos

To compare the two O'Neals. Shaqs problems are in the amount of minutes he'll demand and his overall poor defense. He's not going to accept being a backup C to Perkins or O'Neal.

How is Shaquille O'Neals defense poor? 

Comparing Shaq to Perkins:
http://www.82games.com/0910/09CLE18.HTM
http://www.82games.com/0910/09BOS19.HTM

Their respective PER rating (in 48min span) is 20 for Shaq and 17 for Perkins.  Conversely Shaq held opposing centers to a PER of 14.2 and Perkins held opposing centers to 16.6.  Just looking at that, it seems Shaq was better on offense AND defense last year.  Again, it is all about fit for the team, and I think Shaq fits in well with this team.  Besides, who are you realistically going to get??

  One of the reasons LeBron has trouble getting to the hoop vs Boston is because Perk's behind PP ready to help shut down LeBron's path to the hoop. Would Shaq be able to fill in that role?

  Hint: Rondo will tell you he can't.

Oh you're right, we should go see if Mikki Moore is available.  What are you guys expecting?  Seriously...

[BballTim]

Firstly, Perk is a huge factor in Boston's lack of offensive efficiency.  That's because his lack of production or even potential to produce offense forces the other 4 players on the court to compensate.

  We aren't a very inefficient offensive team, and our inefficiency is due mainly to turnovers and a lack of offensive rebounding. Shaq won't help a ton with either of these situations. He'll help a little with the offense, especially late in the clock, but I don't think he'll make us much more efficient. 

actually, we are quite an average offensive team that tends to sputter at times and get red-hot at other times. the reason we're so good is that league-best defense.

and Perk is not a good offensive player and not comparable to Shaq. It's not that Shaq is still dominating. It's just that Perk is a poor offensive player. i don't think Perk has ever drawn a double team in his career while Shaq will still command a double team at times at his age. On top of that, he can pass very well out of the post. Give Shaq the kind of touches that Perk got last year and i bet he'll turn it over a lot less and convert a lot more.



- LilRip

Actually just the opposite we were very efficient offensive team that turned the ball over too much and didn't get enough defensive rebounds.  top 5 FG%, top 2 assists.  And even the TOs are stat can be misleading. Most of Rondos TOs are plays that 99% of NBA won't even try.  Should he try less maybe but, he has the talent to make the plays.  We lost game 7 of the Finals in LA because we couldn't grab a defensive rebound (after playing the best defense all year) and Ray Allen building a brick house.

Yes the rebounds hurt but we lost game 7 for a number of reasons. Being up 13, LA started getting awarded trips to the line and we could've kept up with them had our offense not stalled. Yes, we have a complicated and effective offense and yet, we're very turnover prone (not to mention that our offense stalls from time to time)

point is, we're not a great offensive team.

  By the same token, if we'd won the game it would have been because LA's offense was shut down so much.

  I saw the same long offensive lulls that everyone else did during the season, but how many did we see in the playoffs? Not nearly as many, and our playoffs run was against 4 of the top 6 defenses in the league last year (excluding the Celts. Our offense held up pretty well considering the quality of defense we played against.

I'm kinda preoccupied right now so i can't be bothered to verify the stats but i'd figure we're on the lower end of FGA and FTA. and since it's probably Rondo who takes the most FT's in our team (because who gets to the line other than him and Pierce?), we probably don't have a great FT% either. I'm also almost sure we're the absolute worst at O-Rebs (and perhaps also Total Rebounding). and i'd think that we're one of the more turnover-prone teams. Combine high-turnover numbers with a low FGA and low O-Reb with an inability to get the line... and voila! you have a bad offensive team. It's because each miss/turnover of ours means a lot more than a miss/turnover to say, a team like Phoenix or LA. Fortunately, great FG% is our saving grace and that's why i think we're average when it comes to offense.

  While this is all true, going from Shaq to Perk doesn't really fix this for us. It won't help with offensive rebounds and it won't really help with turnovers. It may or may not help with FG%, but that's already a strength of ours.

[MBunge]

Shaq's worth to a contended is a lot closer to the 1.35 vet minimum for a player with 10+ years of service than it is to the MLE. If he fails to grasp that, he's either going to be jobless this season, or will go to a horrible team.

Once again

Shaq - 12 points, 6.7 rebounds, 1.2 blocks, 23.4 minutes regular season.
     - 11.5 points, 5.5 rebounds, 1.2 blocks, 22.1 minutes playoffs.

A 7 foot backup center who will probably give you 10 points, 5 boards and a block in just under 20 minutes a game IS NOT a vet min player.  If you could get Shaq for that, great!  But he's clearly worth more.

Mike

You are only worth what someone is willing to pay you and it's fairly evident from media reports that there is not a team in the league that is willing to pay him above the LLE or $2 million a year. So it doesn't matter what his stats are, if no one is willing to pay him more than $2 million a year, then he isn't worth more than that.

It's not that teams are unwilling.  It's that they can't offer Shaq more that that.  Why should Ainge be in any hurry to swap Sheed's deal and probably a pick for Shaq, when there's no other contender that can offer him or the Cavs anything close to that?  You can't say "the market has spoken" where there are essentially price controls in place.

And I'll bet money that if Shaq ends up with Boston, Miami will come to greatly regret they were in such a hurry to spend their leftover salary cap room on Mike Miller and Udonis Haslem.

Mike

[anthony83]

I really love to see Shaq in Boston, along with KG, Pierce, Allen would be wonderful and fun ... I think if Sheed is retired, Shaq would come, he wants to come.

[MBunge]

Shaq is beyond horrible on pick-n-rolls, but I don't think he's nearly as bad on defensive rotations inside the paint.

Maybe if he doesn't have to move more than 2 feet in either direction. And even if we only considered pick-and-roll defense... have you seen how Celtic big men are asked to defend the pick and roll?

You can throw Shaq's stats from last season all you want. All I can tell you is that if we're planning to depend on Shaq to give us even 10 points and 5 rebounds per game, we're not going to make it to the finals. It didn't work in Phoenix, it didn't work in Cleveland, and it's not going to work in Boston.

It's hard to argue with someone who's indifferent to the facts.

And Boston wouldn't be DEPENDING on Shaq.  They'd be BENEFITING from the fact that Shaq would be a better backup center than any other possible option.

Mike

[BballTim]

Marcin Gortat got the full MLE and averaged 3 points and 4 rebounds for Orlando last year.

So because the Magic were idiots and overpaid Gortat, it's going to be ok if we do it with Shaq? Interesting logic.

Again, Shaq averaged 12 points, 6.7 rebounds and 1.2 blocks on 23 minutes a game last season.  No matter how bad his pick-n-roll defense is, you think THAT'S only worth a vet min contract?

Mike  

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tiny.cgi?id=Q8dos

To compare the two O'Neals. Shaqs problems are in the amount of minutes he'll demand and his overall poor defense. He's not going to accept being a backup C to Perkins or O'Neal.

How is Shaquille O'Neals defense poor? 

Comparing Shaq to Perkins:
http://www.82games.com/0910/09CLE18.HTM
http://www.82games.com/0910/09BOS19.HTM

Their respective PER rating (in 48min span) is 20 for Shaq and 17 for Perkins.  Conversely Shaq held opposing centers to a PER of 14.2 and Perkins held opposing centers to 16.6.  Just looking at that, it seems Shaq was better on offense AND defense last year.  Again, it is all about fit for the team, and I think Shaq fits in well with this team.  Besides, who are you realistically going to get??

  One of the reasons LeBron has trouble getting to the hoop vs Boston is because Perk's behind PP ready to help shut down LeBron's path to the hoop. Would Shaq be able to fill in that role?

  Hint: Rondo will tell you he can't.

Oh you're right, we should go see if Mikki Moore is available.  What are you guys expecting?  Seriously...

  You ask how Shaq's defense is poor, people explain to you how it's poor, and this is your response?

  I'm not really opposed to getting Shaq, but he is what he is. He'll more likely than not be a decent downgrade from Perk, and he's at the point in his career that you can't really count on his playing even as well as he did last year going forward.

[MBunge]

Marcin Gortat got the full MLE and averaged 3 points and 4 rebounds for Orlando last year.

So because the Magic were idiots and overpaid Gortat, it's going to be ok if we do it with Shaq? Interesting logic.

Again, Shaq averaged 12 points, 6.7 rebounds and 1.2 blocks on 23 minutes a game last season.  No matter how bad his pick-n-roll defense is, you think THAT'S only worth a vet min contract?

Mike  

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tiny.cgi?id=Q8dos

To compare the two O'Neals. Shaqs problems are in the amount of minutes he'll demand and his overall poor defense. He's not going to accept being a backup C to Perkins or O'Neal.

How is Shaquille O'Neals defense poor? 

Comparing Shaq to Perkins:
http://www.82games.com/0910/09CLE18.HTM
http://www.82games.com/0910/09BOS19.HTM

Their respective PER rating (in 48min span) is 20 for Shaq and 17 for Perkins.  Conversely Shaq held opposing centers to a PER of 14.2 and Perkins held opposing centers to 16.6.  Just looking at that, it seems Shaq was better on offense AND defense last year.  Again, it is all about fit for the team, and I think Shaq fits in well with this team.  Besides, who are you realistically going to get??

  One of the reasons LeBron has trouble getting to the hoop vs Boston is because Perk's behind PP ready to help shut down LeBron's path to the hoop. Would Shaq be able to fill in that role?

  Hint: Rondo will tell you he can't.

Oh you're right, we should go see if Mikki Moore is available.  What are you guys expecting?  Seriously...

  You ask how Shaq's defense is poor, people explain to you how it's poor, and this is your response?

  I'm not really opposed to getting Shaq, but he is what he is. He'll more likely than not be a decent downgrade from Perk, and he's at the point in his career that you can't really count on his playing even as well as he did last year going forward.

Shaq's not replacing Perk.  He's replacing Sheed as back up center.  Which means that Boston would be swapping a slight downgrade defensively for better rebounding and a more consistent and less disruptive offensive production.  I doubt Shaq will be goint 0-5 on 3 pointer anytime next year.

Mike

[Jon]

Marcin Gortat got the full MLE and averaged 3 points and 4 rebounds for Orlando last year.

So because the Magic were idiots and overpaid Gortat, it's going to be ok if we do it with Shaq? Interesting logic.

Again, Shaq averaged 12 points, 6.7 rebounds and 1.2 blocks on 23 minutes a game last season.  No matter how bad his pick-n-roll defense is, you think THAT'S only worth a vet min contract?

Mike  

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tiny.cgi?id=Q8dos

To compare the two O'Neals. Shaqs problems are in the amount of minutes he'll demand and his overall poor defense. He's not going to accept being a backup C to Perkins or O'Neal.

How is Shaquille O'Neals defense poor? 

Comparing Shaq to Perkins:
http://www.82games.com/0910/09CLE18.HTM
http://www.82games.com/0910/09BOS19.HTM

Their respective PER rating (in 48min span) is 20 for Shaq and 17 for Perkins.  Conversely Shaq held opposing centers to a PER of 14.2 and Perkins held opposing centers to 16.6.  Just looking at that, it seems Shaq was better on offense AND defense last year.  Again, it is all about fit for the team, and I think Shaq fits in well with this team.  Besides, who are you realistically going to get??

  One of the reasons LeBron has trouble getting to the hoop vs Boston is because Perk's behind PP ready to help shut down LeBron's path to the hoop. Would Shaq be able to fill in that role?

  Hint: Rondo will tell you he can't.

Oh you're right, we should go see if Mikki Moore is available.  What are you guys expecting?  Seriously...

  You ask how Shaq's defense is poor, people explain to you how it's poor, and this is your response?

  I'm not really opposed to getting Shaq, but he is what he is. He'll more likely than not be a decent downgrade from Perk, and he's at the point in his career that you can't really count on his playing even as well as he did last year going forward.

Shaq's not replacing Perk.  He's replacing Sheed as back up center.  Which means that Boston would be swapping a slight downgrade defensively for better rebounding and a more consistent and less disruptive offensive production.  I doubt Shaq will be goint 0-5 on 3 pointer anytime next year.

Mike

Actually, I'd take it a step further and say Shaq is replacing Luke Harangody or a minimum level backup, because Sheed doesn't appear to be an option.

So we're talking this: who who would you rather have as one of our centers (putting the starting question aside): Shaq, Luke Harangody, or a minimum guy? 

[nickagneta]

Shaq's worth to a contended is a lot closer to the 1.35 vet minimum for a player with 10+ years of service than it is to the MLE. If he fails to grasp that, he's either going to be jobless this season, or will go to a horrible team.

Once again

Shaq - 12 points, 6.7 rebounds, 1.2 blocks, 23.4 minutes regular season.
     - 11.5 points, 5.5 rebounds, 1.2 blocks, 22.1 minutes playoffs.

A 7 foot backup center who will probably give you 10 points, 5 boards and a block in just under 20 minutes a game IS NOT a vet min player.  If you could get Shaq for that, great!  But he's clearly worth more.

Mike

You are only worth what someone is willing to pay you and it's fairly evident from media reports that there is not a team in the league that is willing to pay him above the LLE or $2 million a year. So it doesn't matter what his stats are, if no one is willing to pay him more than $2 million a year, then he isn't worth more than that.

It's not that teams are unwilling.  It's that they can't offer Shaq more that that.  Why should Ainge be in any hurry to swap Sheed's deal and probably a pick for Shaq, when there's no other contender that can offer him or the Cavs anything close to that?  You can't say "the market has spoken" where there are essentially price controls in place.

And I'll bet money that if Shaq ends up with Boston, Miami will come to greatly regret they were in such a hurry to spend their leftover salary cap room on Mike Miller and Udonis Haslem.

Mike

Actually, no. The team's are unwilling. Atlanta signed Josh Powell rather than sign and trade for Shaq. Houston went with Brad Miller when they had the MLE to offer Shaq. Boston went with Jermaine. Dallas - Iam Mahinmi. New Jersey - Johan Petro. New Orleans - Aaron Gray. Miami - Joel Anthony and Zydrunas Ilgauskas. San Antonio - Matt Bonner. Minnesota - Darko Milicic.

Teams are just unwilling to spend money on him so he is worth whatever he gets. If that is the min or LLE, then so be it. That's what he is worth.

[BballTim]

Marcin Gortat got the full MLE and averaged 3 points and 4 rebounds for Orlando last year.

So because the Magic were idiots and overpaid Gortat, it's going to be ok if we do it with Shaq? Interesting logic.

Again, Shaq averaged 12 points, 6.7 rebounds and 1.2 blocks on 23 minutes a game last season.  No matter how bad his pick-n-roll defense is, you think THAT'S only worth a vet min contract?

Mike  

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tiny.cgi?id=Q8dos

To compare the two O'Neals. Shaqs problems are in the amount of minutes he'll demand and his overall poor defense. He's not going to accept being a backup C to Perkins or O'Neal.

How is Shaquille O'Neals defense poor? 

Comparing Shaq to Perkins:
http://www.82games.com/0910/09CLE18.HTM
http://www.82games.com/0910/09BOS19.HTM

Their respective PER rating (in 48min span) is 20 for Shaq and 17 for Perkins.  Conversely Shaq held opposing centers to a PER of 14.2 and Perkins held opposing centers to 16.6.  Just looking at that, it seems Shaq was better on offense AND defense last year.  Again, it is all about fit for the team, and I think Shaq fits in well with this team.  Besides, who are you realistically going to get??

  One of the reasons LeBron has trouble getting to the hoop vs Boston is because Perk's behind PP ready to help shut down LeBron's path to the hoop. Would Shaq be able to fill in that role?

  Hint: Rondo will tell you he can't.

Oh you're right, we should go see if Mikki Moore is available.  What are you guys expecting?  Seriously...

  You ask how Shaq's defense is poor, people explain to you how it's poor, and this is your response?

  I'm not really opposed to getting Shaq, but he is what he is. He'll more likely than not be a decent downgrade from Perk, and he's at the point in his career that you can't really count on his playing even as well as he did last year going forward.

Shaq's not replacing Perk.  He's replacing Sheed as back up center.  Which means that Boston would be swapping a slight downgrade defensively for better rebounding and a more consistent and less disruptive offensive production.  I doubt Shaq will be goint 0-5 on 3 pointer anytime next year.

Mike

  Technically you're right, although Shaq would be doing what Perk does when he plays, not what Sheed did. I was comparing the two players because of prior posts.

  I wonder, though. If you have JO and Shaq, they'd probably be splitting the minutes until Perk comes back (assuming he does). Who works better with the starters, and who works better with the reserves? But that's getting a little ahead of ourselves.

[kozlodoev]

It's hard to argue with someone who's indifferent to the facts.

And Boston wouldn't be DEPENDING on Shaq.  They'd be BENEFITING from the fact that Shaq would be a better backup center than any other possible option.

First, did you miss the part where he was asking for $8 million per season and a guaranteed starter spot?

Second, as far as benefiting is concerned, Shaq is not Leon Powe who's going to give you 10 points out there out of thin air. So if Shaq is scoring 10 points, he was out there long enough that at least 10 plays were ran for him. To reiterate what I said before, if we're "benefitting" from Shaq in this way, we're in trouble.

Also, while it might be easy to think in absolutes, things rarely are. In this particular case, if the choice is between signing Mikki Moore and Aaron Gray to the vet minimum, and using Sheed's contract to acquire a competent third wing, and using Sheed's contract in a sign and trade for Shaq and signing someone like Mike Finley for the wing rotation... I'm sorry to say that the first scenario is no contest for me.

As far as the facts are concerned ... it is a fact that the Cleveland Cavaliers were a  better team with Shaq off the floor than they were with him on. From there on, no matter how you slice it, it still boils down to the fact that he is not spending assets on. That is all.

[kozlodoev]

Shaq's not replacing Perk.  He's replacing Sheed as back up center.  Which means that Boston would be swapping a slight downgrade defensively for better rebounding and a more consistent and less disruptive offensive production.  I doubt Shaq will be goint 0-5 on 3 pointer anytime next year.

"Slight downgrade defensively"? Understatement of the year. Rasheed, even at his current age, is a versatile post defender, who is able to guard both 4s and 5s, blocks shots, and gets a ton of steals for a guy his size.

If you call tossing the ball to Shaq and watching him go to "work" while 4 other people are twiddling their thumbs "less disruptive", I can but rest my case. You won't be convinced.