Tired of Jordan's Legacy, the Bulls were the best defensive team of the 90s.

[TitleMaster]

I'm gonna say it, aside from Bird's "God disguised as Michael Jordan" remark during the '86 playoffs, his Airness was that, a lot of hot air.

MJ's true stature is that of Elgin Baylor, Dr J, Dominique Wilkens, and to a lesser extent... Bernard King. These are basically high volume, highlight reel, scoring extravaganzas.

I'm gonna use the 1994 Bulls, which had the same roster of supporting players, as the '93 championship squad. With the scoring load shifted to Pippen/Grant, and the open jumpers deferred to Kokoc and Kerr, the '94 Bulls won 55 wins, 2 less than the prior season.

In Game 5 of the Knicks series, Pippen got hit with a phantom foul. If the Bulls were a class of clowns, they would have lost their defensive fortitude and it would have ended in 6. Instead, they clamped down and pushed it a full 7 games. And finally, that game 7 was decided by Ewing's single swoosh.

Now, let's use this substitution, if Elgin Baylor, Dr J, or 'Nique were on the Bulls, would it be not be inconceivable that they could have gotten a few more points (w/ the opponent playing tough defense) and made it to the finals, just like the prior year? Granted, this would be difficult as the SF position was already taken, however, if the former NBA greats could have been retrofitted into a SG role, it might have happened.

[Fafnir]

Michael Jordan was also one of, if not they best, defensive SGs of his era.

He was also much more than a high volume scorer, he was a high volume efficient scorer.

[CelticsWhat35]

The '94 team may have won 55 games compared to 57 in the regular season, but they won 6 games compared to 15 in the playoffs.  And if not for a Toni Kukoc buzzer beater after Pippen quit on his team, they could've gotten swept by the Knicks.

And I remember that 92-93 season.  The Suns were the popular pick to win it all.  They had the great regular season with the new addition of Barkley, and most "experts" thought that the Bulls had lost a step from the previous season (in which they won 67 games).  But once the playoffs started, all that went out the window and the Bulls teared through the playoffs.

[guava_wrench]

It is easy to pick out stats to try to create a narrative that fits the way you want things to be. Jordan's peers clearly say he was a lot better than just a volume scorer.

[get_banners]

never liked jordan, esp. the calls he got from the refs, but the dude was on another level as a player. he was nearly unstoppable on offense (he'd get 20+ efficiently on even the greatest defenders), and...his defense...remember how good reggie lewis was on D? well, the only 2 guard better than reggie on D was...jordan.

[GreenFaith1819]

Oooh....I don't know about that. I'd have to do more research, but what about Hakeem's Rockets?

Patrick's Knicks? The Twin Towers of David and Duncan in San Antonio?

You do have a great argument in Jordan and Pippen, though....

[Jon]

Don't know if I agree with that statement; however, I think Jordan got lucky with the era he played in.  By the time he got a team good enough to actually win, Bird was gone, Magic was nearly done, and the likes of Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan either weren't in the NBA or were too young and inexperienced to match up.

In other words, whereas other greats had to battle other greats, Jordan was surely the only top 10 player in NBA history in his prime during the '90s and most likely the only top 25 player.  No one else has ever had it that easy.  

(And before anyone writes some response about Charles Barkley, Hakeem Olajuwon, or Karl Malone, remember, Barkley only made it the Finals once, Hakeem twice, and Malone twice: that's not nearly on par with what we see from the likes of Russell, Bird, Magic, Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan.  That's like being Dirk Nowitzki).  

[dark_lord]

only on celticsblog will u read that mj is essentially over rated.   

god i hate the dog days of summer.

[RebusRankin]

Olajuwon, Barkley and Malone on par with Dirk? 

[Jon]

Olajuwon, Barkley and Malone on par with Dirk?  

In terms of achievement, I'd say yes certainly with Barkley and Malone.  Dirk has been a perennial All Star putting up huge numbers on a consistently fantastic regular season team.  Like Barkley, he made it to the Finals once, and lost.  All Malone did was make it one more time.  If Malone and Barkley were even close to being on the next level of NBA elite, they would've consistently been in the NBA Finals, even if they were losing to MJ's Bulls.  

Olajuwon is a little different.  He made it in the '80s too.  But I find it troubling that he wasn't good enough to get to the Finals more than twice in the '90s.  Also, his first Rockets title team might've been the worst team ever to win an NBA Championship.  In many ways, they weren't much better than the 2001 Sixers.  The difference is that they didn't have to play Shaq and Kobe in the Finals.  

As to my larger point in my first post, I think Jordan was simply born at the right time.  He's an all time great no doubt, and he certainly is above Dominique and Bernard King.  However, I think if he was born 10 years earlier or 10 years later and had to play against Bird, Johnson, and Erving in their prime or Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan in their prime, he probably would've won half the titles he did and would simply be talked about as a top 10 player, not necessarily the consensus number 1.  

I mean how many titles would Larry have won if he played in the '90s and didn't have to worry about Julius Erving on the way to the Finals and Magic and Kareem in the Finals?  

[KCattheStripe]

Olajuwon, Barkley and Malone on par with Dirk? 

In terms of achievement, I'd say yes certainly with Barkley and Malone.  Dirk has been a perennial All Star putting up huge numbers on a consistently fantastic regular season team.  Like Barkley, he made it to the Finals once, and lost.  All Malone did was make it one more time.  If Malone and Barkley were even close to being on the next level of NBA elite, they would've consistently been in the NBA Finals, even if they were losing to MJ's Bulls. 

Olajuwon is a little different.  He made it in the '80s too.  But I find it troubling that he wasn't good enough to get to the Finals more than twice in the '90s.  Also, his first Rockets title team might've been the worst team ever to win an NBA Championship.  In many ways, they weren't much better than the 2001 Sixers.  The difference is that they didn't have to play Shaq and Kobe in the Finals. 

As to my larger point in my first post, I think Jordan was simply born at the right time.  He's an all time great no doubt, and he certainly is above Dominique and Bernard King.  However, I think if he was born 10 years earlier or 10 years later and had to play against Bird, Johnson, and Erving in their prime or Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan in their prime, he probably would've won have the titles he did and would simply be talked about as a top 10 player, not necessarily the consensus number 1. 

I mean how many titles would Larry have won if he played in the '90s and didn't have to worry about Julius Erving on the way to the Finals and Magic and Kareem in the Finals? 

You need to go back and look at how horrendous Olajuwon's teams were after Ralph Sampson. And you're right, he didn't run into Kobe and Shaq, he ran into Shaq, Penny and Horace Grant and swept the crud out of them. And carrying the worst team to win a title in recent memory should be a bonus for the player not a negative. To compare Olajuwon, who is arguably the most dominant center of the past 30 years, to Dirk is silly.

[Jon]

Olajuwon, Barkley and Malone on par with Dirk? 

In terms of achievement, I'd say yes certainly with Barkley and Malone.  Dirk has been a perennial All Star putting up huge numbers on a consistently fantastic regular season team.  Like Barkley, he made it to the Finals once, and lost.  All Malone did was make it one more time.  If Malone and Barkley were even close to being on the next level of NBA elite, they would've consistently been in the NBA Finals, even if they were losing to MJ's Bulls. 

Olajuwon is a little different.  He made it in the '80s too.  But I find it troubling that he wasn't good enough to get to the Finals more than twice in the '90s.  Also, his first Rockets title team might've been the worst team ever to win an NBA Championship.  In many ways, they weren't much better than the 2001 Sixers.  The difference is that they didn't have to play Shaq and Kobe in the Finals. 

As to my larger point in my first post, I think Jordan was simply born at the right time.  He's an all time great no doubt, and he certainly is above Dominique and Bernard King.  However, I think if he was born 10 years earlier or 10 years later and had to play against Bird, Johnson, and Erving in their prime or Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan in their prime, he probably would've won have the titles he did and would simply be talked about as a top 10 player, not necessarily the consensus number 1. 

I mean how many titles would Larry have won if he played in the '90s and didn't have to worry about Julius Erving on the way to the Finals and Magic and Kareem in the Finals? 

You need to go back and look at how horrendous Olajuwon's teams were after Ralph Sampson. And you're right, he didn't run into Kobe and Shaq, he ran into Shaq, Penny and Horace Grant and swept the crud out of them. And carrying the worst team to win a title in recent memory should be a bonus for the player not a negative. To compare Olajuwon, who is arguably the most dominant center of the past 30 years, to Dirk is silly.

I'll partially agree.  Shaq wasn't the player in the mid '90s that he became in the 2000s, Penny wasn't close to Kobe, and Horace Grant was at the end of his career.  So that was hardly an epic team. 

But Olajuwon should be above them.  Still, I don't put him as a top 10 player by any stretch, probably not a top 20, and maybe not even a top 25. 

Regardless, even supposing him to be a top 20 player of all time, Jordan never had to face him in the playoffs ever.  So my larger point remains: Jordan never had to face a player anywhere near his league during any of his title runs.  You can't say that about any other top 10 player. 

[Birdbrain]

Not shocking to say the least.
 
w/o Jordan they don't win 1 ring.

w/o Jordan Pippen isn't HOF

w/o Jordan Phil is CBA coach

w/o Jordan the Bulls are not best defensive team in league because guess what.. wait for it.. he was the best defender in league by a wide margin.

So no I reject the notion.  Jordan made the Bulls.

[BballTim]

Don't know if I agree with that statement; however, I think Jordan got lucky with the era he played in.  By the time he got a team good enough to actually win, Bird was gone, Magic was nearly done, and the likes of Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan either weren't in the NBA or were too young and inexperienced to match up.

In other words, whereas other greats had to battle other greats, Jordan was surely the only top 10 player in NBA history in his prime during the '90s and most likely the only top 25 player.  No one else has ever had it that easy.  

(And before anyone writes some response about Charles Barkley, Hakeem Olajuwon, or Karl Malone, remember, Barkley only made it the Finals once, Hakeem twice, and Malone twice: that's not nearly on par with what we see from the likes of Russell, Bird, Magic, Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan.  That's like being Dirk Nowitzki).  

  Saying Hakeem was like Dirk, that's just plain wrong.

  But I think that in the Bulls first 5 titles they played 5 different teams speaks to how weak their opposition was.

[Jon]

Don't know if I agree with that statement; however, I think Jordan got lucky with the era he played in.  By the time he got a team good enough to actually win, Bird was gone, Magic was nearly done, and the likes of Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan either weren't in the NBA or were too young and inexperienced to match up.

In other words, whereas other greats had to battle other greats, Jordan was surely the only top 10 player in NBA history in his prime during the '90s and most likely the only top 25 player.  No one else has ever had it that easy.  

(And before anyone writes some response about Charles Barkley, Hakeem Olajuwon, or Karl Malone, remember, Barkley only made it the Finals once, Hakeem twice, and Malone twice: that's not nearly on par with what we see from the likes of Russell, Bird, Magic, Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan.  That's like being Dirk Nowitzki).  

  Saying Hakeem was like Dirk, that's just plain wrong.

  But I think that in the Bulls first 5 titles they played 5 different teams speaks to how weak their opposition was.

OK, OK.  However, let's also keep in mind that if Jordan hadn't retired, Hakeem likely would've won zero rings.  If that's the case, is the Dirk comparison all that far off, especially if we stop romanticizing the past? 

I agree that I went overboard; however, I stand by my point that both of Hakeem's title teams (particularly the first) would've lost to most teams that have ever even made the NBA Finals.