The Rondo vs Paul Poll on the front page

[taxbax]

We have Rondo for like 5 more years at a very reasonable rate. Paul, is a max contract guy and has free agency on the horizon. Rondo got us to the finals twice and his ego already fits into the team. Our big three have meshed well but add another first option to the mix and there's no telling what could happen.

we have not seen the best of Rondo yet. We may have already seen Paul as good as he can be (besides having a better team). Not to say he hasn't been brilliant but Rondo could match him and we are giving up other chips in that proposal as well. I'd take Okafor over Perk any day but I'd like to see us bring in something else with Sheeds contract and not throw in a first round pick to boot.

[BballTim]

Let me add that, per 36 minutes, Rondo had 4.4 rebounds and CP had 4.0 in the regular season this year.  Both were down from the year before, when CP had 5.2/36 to RR's 5.7/36.

I'd say that Rondo doesn't have a significant edge in rebounding, either.

   Paul averaged 4.8 a game in his 2 years in the playoffs. Rodno's averaged about 7 a game the last 2 years. Fairly significant.

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Let me add that, per 36 minutes, Rondo had 4.4 rebounds and CP had 4.0 in the regular season this year.  Both were down from the year before, when CP had 5.2/36 to RR's 5.7/36.

I'd say that Rondo doesn't have a significant edge in rebounding, either.

   Paul averaged 4.8 a game in his 2 years in the playoffs. Rodno's averaged about 7 a game the last 2 years. Fairly significant.

Not really:  Sample size.  CP didn't play any playoff games this year, and only 5 the year before (17 career).  I don't think I'd look more than 2 years back to gauge present value of a player, generally, though I may think about it if looking at trends or whatever.

Rondo has played a crazy amount of playoff games (64), so he definitely gets the edge in "playoff experience."

[BballTim]

Let me add that, per 36 minutes, Rondo had 4.4 rebounds and CP had 4.0 in the regular season this year.  Both were down from the year before, when CP had 5.2/36 to RR's 5.7/36.

I'd say that Rondo doesn't have a significant edge in rebounding, either.

   Paul averaged 4.8 a game in his 2 years in the playoffs. Rodno's averaged about 7 a game the last 2 years. Fairly significant.

Not really:  Sample size.  CP didn't play any playoff games this year, and only 5 the year before (17 career).  I don't think I'd look more than 2 years back to gauge present value of a player, generally, though I may think about it if looking at trends or whatever.

Rondo has played a crazy amount of playoff games (64), so he definitely gets the edge in "playoff experience."

  So, if Paul's a career 4.7 a game rebounder during the regular season and 4.8 a game rebounder in the playoffs, is it still too small a sample size? How about the fact that Paul has one double digit rebounding game in his playoff career while Rondo has 9 in his last 2 seasons? I think that Magic, Oscar and Jason Kidd are the only point guards that have ever averaged more rebounds a game in the postseason than Rondo did in 2009. Good luck with your expectation that Paul will turn out to be as good a rebounder in the playoffs as Rondo when his sample size is a little bigger.

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Let me add that, per 36 minutes, Rondo had 4.4 rebounds and CP had 4.0 in the regular season this year.  Both were down from the year before, when CP had 5.2/36 to RR's 5.7/36.

I'd say that Rondo doesn't have a significant edge in rebounding, either.

   Paul averaged 4.8 a game in his 2 years in the playoffs. Rodno's averaged about 7 a game the last 2 years. Fairly significant.

Not really:  Sample size.  CP didn't play any playoff games this year, and only 5 the year before (17 career).  I don't think I'd look more than 2 years back to gauge present value of a player, generally, though I may think about it if looking at trends or whatever.

Rondo has played a crazy amount of playoff games (64), so he definitely gets the edge in "playoff experience."

  So, if Paul's a career 4.7 a game rebounder during the regular season and 4.8 a game rebounder in the playoffs, is it still too small a sample size? How about the fact that Paul has one double digit rebounding game in his playoff career while Rondo has 9 in his last 2 seasons? I think that Magic, Oscar and Jason Kidd are the only point guards that have ever averaged more rebounds a game in the postseason than Rondo did in 2009. Good luck with your expectation that Paul will turn out to be as good a rebounder in the playoffs as Rondo when his sample size is a little bigger.

Well, as I suggested earlier, I don't think the counting stats are all that great of a way to compare, so that probably includes rebounds.  Comparing PG rebounding numbers to other PG's is even more precarious, as many systems/coaches discourage or outright prohibit PG's from going after rebounds, so "best rebounding PG" would be a pretty different animal than "best rebounding Center".

But the problem with sample size is most notable in the example you give here:  Rondo has almost twice the number of double digit rebounding playoff games in the last two years (9, as you cited) than CP has playoff games, period during the same stretch (5).  You cannot compare their playoff production.  No, no no.

But if you wanted to make a stab at it, I would say that CP has one double digit rebound game in the last two years to RR's 9.  That's 1 out of 5 games for CP = 20%.  RR has 9 in 38 games, or 26%.  Yes, there is a difference there as well, but it isn't huge, and since it isn't a "core function" of a PG to rebound, I would continue to hold that Rondo's rebounding edge is insignificant as a deterimining criteria of who the better player is, or, put another way, I don't think Rondo's edge in rebounding is significant.

[BballTim]

But if you wanted to make a stab at it, I would say that CP has one double digit rebound game in the last two years to RR's 9.  That's 1 out of 5 games for CP = 20%.  RR has 9 in 38 games, or 26%.  Yes, there is a difference there as well, but it isn't huge, and since it isn't a "core function" of a PG to rebound, I would continue to hold that Rondo's rebounding edge is insignificant as a deterimining criteria of who the better player is, or, put another way, I don't think Rondo's edge in rebounding is significant.

  So since most centers are poor passers you'd discard that criteria when you compare Walton or Divac or Sabonis to other centers? Rebounds equals possessions for your team, and having more possessions than your opponents is fairly important. The fact that other point guards can't rebound like Rondo doesn't mean it's insignificant, it means it's a big advantage for the Celts.

[MBz]

I think rebounding from a PG is a very hard thing to judge.  Rondo has benefited greatly from playing with guys like KG and Perk.  Those guys box out very well and it allows Rondo to go get the ball.  Paul has never had that. 

[nickagneta]

Something Rondo has that Paul could have but as of yet hasn't displayed, is an ability to elevate his game to a completely different level come playoff time. There are just very few players in the league that can do this. Rondo has proven he can.

Simply put, over the last 3 post seasons he has been one of the top 3 players in the playoffs on any team, period. There is just no disputing that. The difference between his regular season games and his playoff games is significant and to me demonstrates a quality that is very rare and something that should never be discounted.

[Celtics Fan]

RONDO IS THE MAN Brothers stop whinning. He is our ALL STAR PG, All Defense first team, he is a leader...Rondo is a Star for the haul dude, wouldnt suprise me if we win a couple with him and his number 9 is hanging in the garden. He has dang near caught all of Celtics favorite Bob Cousey assist record...You dont trade this type of guy my friend. He going to comeback ready to lead next year. What I like about the kid is he's not scared to perform on the high stage and he believes in his ability, matter of fact he has been like that during his high school years if you followed him.

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But if you wanted to make a stab at it, I would say that CP has one double digit rebound game in the last two years to RR's 9.  That's 1 out of 5 games for CP = 20%.  RR has 9 in 38 games, or 26%.  Yes, there is a difference there as well, but it isn't huge, and since it isn't a "core function" of a PG to rebound, I would continue to hold that Rondo's rebounding edge is insignificant as a deterimining criteria of who the better player is, or, put another way, I don't think Rondo's edge in rebounding is significant.

  So since most centers are poor passers you'd discard that criteria when you compare Walton or Divac or Sabonis to other centers? Rebounds equals possessions for your team, and having more possessions than your opponents is fairly important. The fact that other point guards can't rebound like Rondo doesn't mean it's insignificant, it means it's a big advantage for the Celts.

At the risk of being redundant, the numbers are rather clear that although RR is a better rebounder, CP is very nearly as good at rebounding at Rondo is, and that holds up any way you look at it.  And while Rondo gets around 10% more rebounds, CP's advantage in just about every other category more than makes up for Rondo's slight edge in rebounds.  In fact, though Rondo grabbed 0.4 more rebounds than CP during last season, he turned it over 0.6 times more often.  You are correct, those extra possessions are important, and the edge still goes to CP.

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Something Rondo has that Paul could have but as of yet hasn't displayed, is an ability to elevate his game to a completely different level come playoff time. There are just very few players in the league that can do this. Rondo has proven he can.

Simply put, over the last 3 post seasons he has been one of the top 3 players in the playoffs on any team, period. There is just no disputing that. The difference between his regular season games and his playoff games is significant and to me demonstrates a quality that is very rare and something that should never be discounted.

TP.  Though he got much more defensive attention than Rondo ever did in any of his 64 playoff games, which could leave the question open in his case, there is no question that Rondo is a gamer.  And that itself may be reason enough not to risk a deal.

I'm not looking forward to finding out how Rondo may fare on a crappy squad, though.  Let's hope we never do.

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I think rebounding from a PG is a very hard thing to judge.  Rondo has benefited greatly from playing with guys like KG and Perk.  Those guys box out very well and it allows Rondo to go get the ball.  Paul has never had that.  

And, one could argue, that since Rondo's man is never anywhere near him, and he often (when on defense off-ball) is nowhere near his man ( ), he is free to follow the ball...  Perhaps his rebounding (and steals) hurt us when he doesn't get the tick as much as his getting it helps.  Probably why coaches don't send PG's after rebounds, and lane-poachers who get lots o' steals are not necessarily good defenders.

Again, good reasons (imo) to not focus on counting stats.

[scaryjerry]

Im glad to see some loyalty towards our guy rondo, and dissapointed in the pipe dream mentality.

If the Hornets trade paul, they have a cheap PG to instantly replace him already, why trade him for rondo?

And the most important thing is chris pauls stats are inflated and hes overrated. The ball is in his hands the duration of the shotclock and he either shoots it or passes it off for a shot an assist, no ball movement, he may get 11 assists, but the hornets as a team will get 13. I dont see him meshing with the big 3..and No i wouldnt trade rondo for him even if hyptothetically the hornets wanted a PG in exchange

[BballTim]

But if you wanted to make a stab at it, I would say that CP has one double digit rebound game in the last two years to RR's 9.  That's 1 out of 5 games for CP = 20%.  RR has 9 in 38 games, or 26%.  Yes, there is a difference there as well, but it isn't huge, and since it isn't a "core function" of a PG to rebound, I would continue to hold that Rondo's rebounding edge is insignificant as a deterimining criteria of who the better player is, or, put another way, I don't think Rondo's edge in rebounding is significant.

  So since most centers are poor passers you'd discard that criteria when you compare Walton or Divac or Sabonis to other centers? Rebounds equals possessions for your team, and having more possessions than your opponents is fairly important. The fact that other point guards can't rebound like Rondo doesn't mean it's insignificant, it means it's a big advantage for the Celts.

At the risk of being redundant, the numbers are rather clear that although RR is a better rebounder, CP is very nearly as good at rebounding at Rondo is, and that holds up any way you look at it.  And while Rondo gets around 10% more rebounds, CP's advantage in just about every other category more than makes up for Rondo's slight edge in rebounds.  In fact, though Rondo grabbed 0.4 more rebounds than CP during last season, he turned it over 0.6 times more often.  You are correct, those extra possessions are important, and the edge still goes to CP.

  Should I bring up the fact that opposing pgs had about 1 more turnover a game vs Rondo than they did vs Paul last year? And it's worth noting that Rondo ups his rebounding in the playoffs while CP doesn't. And I don't dispute that CP puts up better stats. But Rondo plays with better players. Put Paul on this team and his numbers drop. Put Rondo on a team like the Hornets and his numbers shoot up.

[Fafnir]

But if you wanted to make a stab at it, I would say that CP has one double digit rebound game in the last two years to RR's 9.  That's 1 out of 5 games for CP = 20%.  RR has 9 in 38 games, or 26%.  Yes, there is a difference there as well, but it isn't huge, and since it isn't a "core function" of a PG to rebound, I would continue to hold that Rondo's rebounding edge is insignificant as a deterimining criteria of who the better player is, or, put another way, I don't think Rondo's edge in rebounding is significant.

  So since most centers are poor passers you'd discard that criteria when you compare Walton or Divac or Sabonis to other centers? Rebounds equals possessions for your team, and having more possessions than your opponents is fairly important. The fact that other point guards can't rebound like Rondo doesn't mean it's insignificant, it means it's a big advantage for the Celts.

Rondo's turnover rate is higher than than Paul's however. That negates most of the net possession advantage that Rondo has.

I'll also add that Paul has had one amazing playoff run better than what Rondo has done, and one awful one.