The superstars joining forces issue

[pearljammer10]

However, in my opinion, and maybe I am being a homer, that was different. That was three guys in their early to mid 30's that had been on long struggling teams agreeing to sacrifice themselves and their number to play team basketball. Similarly if Steve Nash or Jason Kidd got traded to the Bobcats right now and joined forces with Gerald Wallace and Stephen Jackson to win a championship I would have no problem with it. What I do have a problem is when younger and younger players start demanding their team wins now even when they are 25 or younger. Lebron started it after his owner tried everything to please him.  where does it end? Now Chris Paul all of 25 years old who has played 3.5 seasons in the NBA needs to go to a winning situation to play with another superstar?

First off you addressing the fact the Celtics started this trend doesnt make any sense. Who cares if they are in there 30's compared to being 25? Its the same thing. Even worse on the Celtics part because they were superstars that couldnt get it done by themselves anyway so bring in all three to create a super team.

Second; I wouldnt have a problem with Nash or Kidd going to the Bobcats with Jackson and Wallace either because that still doesnt make them threats in the least. Did you really just compare a big three of Nash, Wallace, and Jackson to the celts or the heat?

[guava_wrench]

Let's face it.  Durant is going to be the anti-Lebron.  He is not going to tease the league and create a situation where 13 teams do nothing but clear cap space for 2 or 3 years prior to his free agency year. 

In fact, style-wise, he already is the anti-Lebron. 

I'm not against what Lebron did in joining forces with friends in Miami, because it fits his personality, his dancing, his entire schtick, all the ego-related things we've been complaining about the past few years....The way he did it  was one of the suckiest NBA episodes in quite a while, an off-court uber-dance, but that's Lebron, so we just have to sit back and watch.  It will be very interesting to watch Miami play this year....very entertaining.  I don't hate Lebron.  He's got some good qualities.  But I like what Durant represents much more and will root for that type of player every time...

But my point is that I think most players, including Chris Paul, aren't like Lebron.  We won't see cap clearing activity by teams on this level again imo.

Chris Paul is in a lousy position and I don't see his wanting out as a follow up to Lebron-gate.
Cleveland actually bent over backwards multiple times to please Lebron.  N.O.'s got nothing to offer Paul, no money/desire to improve the team...He should get out of there.  He doesn't need a Miami-type arrangement.  He can lead any number of upcoming teams with smart owners to the promised land....

In case this post was confusing.  The gist is that Lebron in the long run will be an aberration, especially when he leaves Miami after 2 or 3 years....

Durant probably wouldn't do that because there would be a new CBA.

[celticsclay]

However, in my opinion, and maybe I am being a homer, that was different. That was three guys in their early to mid 30's that had been on long struggling teams agreeing to sacrifice themselves and their number to play team basketball. Similarly if Steve Nash or Jason Kidd got traded to the Bobcats right now and joined forces with Gerald Wallace and Stephen Jackson to win a championship I would have no problem with it. What I do have a problem is when younger and younger players start demanding their team wins now even when they are 25 or younger. Lebron started it after his owner tried everything to please him.  where does it end? Now Chris Paul all of 25 years old who has played 3.5 seasons in the NBA needs to go to a winning situation to play with another superstar?

First off you addressing the fact the Celtics started this trend doesnt make any sense. Who cares if they are in there 30's compared to being 25? Its the same thing. Even worse on the Celtics part because they were superstars that couldnt get it done by themselves anyway so bring in all three to create a super team.

Second; I wouldnt have a problem with Nash or Kidd going to the Bobcats with Jackson and Wallace either because that still doesnt make them threats in the least. Did you really just compare a big three of Nash, Wallace, and Jackson to the celts or the heat?

First off Ray Allen and KG didn't demand to be traded to the celtics. I kind of think Ray Allen didn't originally even want to come here when he was first dealt. Secondly, there is a huge difference between a guy with a few years left on his career (as we have seen with KG he really only had 1.5 elite season left in him) and a guy that has been in the league for 4 seasons making demands. Also, maybe they are not the best team in the east, but a team with Stephen Jackson, Wallace, Chandler, Nash and a few other veterans fill ins would be a pretty interesting team and middle of the playoff team in the east at worst. However, my point with that was not to compare that big three with our big three, but to say players at the end of their careers on bad teams switching up is different then guys in their 5th year.

[celticsclay]

Let's face it.  Durant is going to be the anti-Lebron.  He is not going to tease the league and create a situation where 13 teams do nothing but clear cap space for 2 or 3 years prior to his free agency year.  

In fact, style-wise, he already is the anti-Lebron.  

I'm not against what Lebron did in joining forces with friends in Miami, because it fits his personality, his dancing, his entire schtick, all the ego-related things we've been complaining about the past few years....The way he did it  was one of the suckiest NBA episodes in quite a while, an off-court uber-dance, but that's Lebron, so we just have to sit back and watch.  It will be very interesting to watch Miami play this year....very entertaining.  I don't hate Lebron.  He's got some good qualities.  But I like what Durant represents much more and will root for that type of player every time...

But my point is that I think most players, including Chris Paul, aren't like Lebron.  We won't see cap clearing activity by teams on this level again imo.

Chris Paul is in a lousy position and I don't see his wanting out as a follow up to Lebron-gate.
Cleveland actually bent over backwards multiple times to please Lebron.  N.O.'s got nothing to offer Paul, no money/desire to improve the team...He should get out of there.  He doesn't need a Miami-type arrangement.  He can lead any number of upcoming teams with smart owners to the promised land....

In case this post was confusing.  The gist is that Lebron in the long run will be an aberration, especially when he leaves Miami after 2 or 3 years....

Durant probably wouldn't do that because there would be a new CBA.

You could be right, but the same source that said he demanded to be traded also said his demands were hardened by the way the whole lebron thing went down. Paul saw superstars wanting to play together and manipulating the league and now it seems he wants to do the same. If Paul really wants to play for a winning team and is open to going to one of the 15 solidly playoff calibar teams that could be one thing. However, him giving a list of three teams and ranking them is completely ridiculous. He is under contract with the team, not the other way around. The hornets need to do a trade helps their franchise, not just chris paul.

[Mr October]

I don't have a problem with the superstar super team action. If management makes terrible decisions and builds crap around you (Toronto, Cleveland) or plays it cheap (New Orleans) I would want to leave to a better team too.

This sort of situation is very rare to pull off. Most draft classes don't contain 2 top 5 players. Miami got lucky.

My problem is that that city of bandwagon fans doesn't deserve a great team. They couldn't even come close to filling the stands last spring in the playoffs, when they still had one of the elite talents in the league.

Lets just hope the Celtics and every other non-lakers team knocks them down.

[celticsclay]

I don't have a problem with the superstar super team action. If management makes terrible decisions and builds crap around you (Toronto, Cleveland) or plays it cheap (New Orleans) I would want to leave to a better team too.

This sort of situation is very rare to pull off. Most draft classes don't contain 2 top 5 players. Miami got lucky.

My problem is that that city of bandwagon fans doesn't deserve a great team. They couldn't even come close to filling the stands last spring in the playoffs, when they still had one of the elite talents in the league.

Lets just hope the Celtics and every other non-lakers team knocks them down.

I don't think its fair to say that Cleveland made completely awful decisions as of now. I think they made some win now trades (shaq, jamison) that a lot of people on this forum would have been happy if the celtics did at the time. Lets remember when they signed Shaq he was coming up a 17 and 9 season with the suns. They also signed some nice veterans (Parker and Moon were solid pickups) and had a talented young big in Hickson. For whatever reason the teams pieces didn't fully jell, but they did have the leagues best record. Now once the celtics knocked them out of the playoffs all of a sudden everyone acts like Lebron had a completely rubbish supporting cast. As for New Orleans I think their cost cutting mode is a little overrated, unless I am mistaken Okafor had a longer and higher salary then Chandler and they just did that deal last year. They also signed Posey to a deal a lot of celtics fans wanted the celtics to match. The fact that both Posey and Peja fossilized (he is younger then allen), is not entirely the owners fault. I don't think you can say the owners were awful on paper. Plus pauls injury last season was at least half the reason they struggled.

[incoherent]

the 2008 Rambo

edit: posted in the wrong thread

since i have nothing to say about this one at the moment, bump

[bdm860]

Why should we treat these guys any different than we treat ourselves?

How many of us are still with the same employer that first hired us?

If you had a choice to move to any one of 30 cities, wouldn't you rather LA, Miami, or New York, or would you really choose a city like Cleveland?

If you had choice to work with people you wanted to work with, or people you didn't want to work with, what would you choose?

If you know you have all these options available to you, and you already decided you're going to take a new job in 6 months, and your boss calls you into his/her office for your annual review and asks where do you see yourself in 5 years?  Do you say with another company?  Or do you say something like "I hope to have been promoted to [fill in the blank] position here." ?  Do you tell all your co-workers that you're planning on leaving for a new job next year, or do you keep it to yourself till it's official?

Some of us have to put in a lot of hard work and long hours before we're able to build up our resume to where we can choose any company we want to work for.  Some of us are never able to do it.  Others of us can do it rather quickly.  Are you really mad at someone who has the ability to choose their own destiny under their own terms, and then they actually do?

We critize these athletes for things we all would do ourselves in a second!

[celticsclay]

Why should we treat these guys any different than we treat ourselves?

How many of us are still with the same employer that first hired us?

If you had a choice to move to any one of 30 cities, wouldn't you rather LA, Miami, or New York, or would you really choose a city like Cleveland?

If you had choice to work with people you wanted to work with, or people you didn't want to work with, what would you choose?

If you know you have all these options available to you, and you already decided you're going to take a new job in 6 months, and your boss calls you into his/her office for your annual review and asks where do you see yourself in 5 years?  Do you say with another company?  Or do you say something like "I hope to have been promoted to [fill in the blank] position here." ?  Do you tell all your co-workers that you're planning on leaving for a new job next year, or do you keep it to yourself till it's official?

Some of us have to put in a lot of hard work and long hours before we're able to build up our resume to where we can choose any company we want to work for.  Some of us are never able to do it.  Others of us can do it rather quickly.  Are you really mad at someone who has the ability to choose their own destiny under their own terms, and then they actually do?

We critize these athletes for things we all would do ourselves in a second!

If we are going to compare this to a real job, lets compare this part. You call all the current employees at your company to the conference room. All your friends and everyone that worked there down to the janitorial staff and receptionists are called down. You call down the stockholders and the management. Then once you have all their attention, you call up the rival companies and put them on a video chat. You then tell your current company that despite the fact your company was willing to give you the most money they could under governmental regulations, and after doing everything you had ever asked of them, and knowing your departure would cost them massive amounts of money and a lot of the people there would probably lose their jobs, you were going to the rival for a little less money to work with friends. You then made them all watch the rival company celebrate your departure and had a limo drive up as you left the company in shambles to party with your friends at the new company. Most of us working folks probably wouldnt do that either.....

[Mr October]

I don't have a problem with the superstar super team action. If management makes terrible decisions and builds crap around you (Toronto, Cleveland) or plays it cheap (New Orleans) I would want to leave to a better team too.

This sort of situation is very rare to pull off. Most draft classes don't contain 2 top 5 players. Miami got lucky.

My problem is that that city of bandwagon fans doesn't deserve a great team. They couldn't even come close to filling the stands last spring in the playoffs, when they still had one of the elite talents in the league.

Lets just hope the Celtics and every other non-lakers team knocks them down.

I don't think its fair to say that Cleveland made completely awful decisions as of now. I think they made some win now trades (shaq, jamison) that a lot of people on this forum would have been happy if the celtics did at the time. Lets remember when they signed Shaq he was coming up a 17 and 9 season with the suns. They also signed some nice veterans (Parker and Moon were solid pickups) and had a talented young big in Hickson. For whatever reason the teams pieces didn't fully jell, but they did have the leagues best record. Now once the celtics knocked them out of the playoffs all of a sudden everyone acts like Lebron had a completely rubbish supporting cast. As for New Orleans I think their cost cutting mode is a little overrated, unless I am mistaken Okafor had a longer and higher salary then Chandler and they just did that deal last year. They also signed Posey to a deal a lot of celtics fans wanted the celtics to match. The fact that both Posey and Peja fossilized (he is younger then allen), is not entirely the owners fault. I don't think you can say the owners were awful on paper. Plus pauls injury last season was at least half the reason they struggled.

All of a sudden people think the supporting cast in Cleveland was rubbish??? I thought that it was common knowledge that the Cavs looked like a lottery team without Lebron. Why the heck should he choose to continue that way, when the best player he played with in recent years was Andersen Varejao?

New Orleans created their financial mess. They had no business paying Posey who was on the decline a long term contract. Management there has sent out signals that they are looking to cut costs. No superstar in their prime wants to hear that.

I don't blame these people for wanting to find the best work place possible.

[Mr October]

Why should we treat these guys any different than we treat ourselves?

How many of us are still with the same employer that first hired us?

If you had a choice to move to any one of 30 cities, wouldn't you rather LA, Miami, or New York, or would you really choose a city like Cleveland?

If you had choice to work with people you wanted to work with, or people you didn't want to work with, what would you choose?

If you know you have all these options available to you, and you already decided you're going to take a new job in 6 months, and your boss calls you into his/her office for your annual review and asks where do you see yourself in 5 years?  Do you say with another company?  Or do you say something like "I hope to have been promoted to [fill in the blank] position here." ?  Do you tell all your co-workers that you're planning on leaving for a new job next year, or do you keep it to yourself till it's official?

Some of us have to put in a lot of hard work and long hours before we're able to build up our resume to where we can choose any company we want to work for.  Some of us are never able to do it.  Others of us can do it rather quickly.  Are you really mad at someone who has the ability to choose their own destiny under their own terms, and then they actually do?

We critize these athletes for things we all would do ourselves in a second!

If we are going to compare this to a real job, lets compare this part. You call all the current employees at your company to the conference room. All your friends and everyone that worked there down to the janitorial staff and receptionists are called down. You call down the stockholders and the management. Then once you have all their attention, you call up the rival companies and put them on a video chat. You then tell your current company that despite the fact your company was willing to give you the most money they could under governmental regulations, and after doing everything you had ever asked of them, and knowing your departure would cost them massive amounts of money and a lot of the people there would probably lose their jobs, you were going to the rival for a little less money to work with friends. You then made them all watch the rival company celebrate your departure and had a limo drive up as you left the company in shambles to party with your friends at the new company. Most of us working folks probably wouldnt do that either.....

2 different issues here... I can understand superstar players wanting to have the best teammates possible.

However the way Lebron handled his departure was absolutely selfish and gross. He is now a villain. He went from all american hero to selfish mercenary overnight. He could have handled all of this better, and still changed teams.

[LB3533]

All 3 of the Miami Heat 3 were not happy in their previous situations.

They found something better, more appealing to them.

Joining forces doesn't guarantee them anything. They still have an low experienced HC in Erik Spolestra.

They still need to actually play in a few games before we crown them champs or failures.

I commend these Superstars for this move to play together and see what fruits they can ripe.

If there is a superstar who passes on playing in a better situation.....good luck man and sleep in the bed you made.

Kevin Garnett would be someone that passed on it multiple times. He gave the timberwolves 11 years. I wonder how he sleeps....

KG has gone on record had he known of a better situation (how good Boston could be) he would have left Minny a lot sooner.

[bdm860]

Why should we treat these guys any different than we treat ourselves?

How many of us are still with the same employer that first hired us?

If you had a choice to move to any one of 30 cities, wouldn't you rather LA, Miami, or New York, or would you really choose a city like Cleveland?

If you had choice to work with people you wanted to work with, or people you didn't want to work with, what would you choose?

If you know you have all these options available to you, and you already decided you're going to take a new job in 6 months, and your boss calls you into his/her office for your annual review and asks where do you see yourself in 5 years?  Do you say with another company?  Or do you say something like "I hope to have been promoted to [fill in the blank] position here." ?  Do you tell all your co-workers that you're planning on leaving for a new job next year, or do you keep it to yourself till it's official?

Some of us have to put in a lot of hard work and long hours before we're able to build up our resume to where we can choose any company we want to work for.  Some of us are never able to do it.  Others of us can do it rather quickly.  Are you really mad at someone who has the ability to choose their own destiny under their own terms, and then they actually do?

We critize these athletes for things we all would do ourselves in a second!

If we are going to compare this to a real job, lets compare this part. You call all the current employees at your company to the conference room. All your friends and everyone that worked there down to the janitorial staff and receptionists are called down. You call down the stockholders and the management. Then once you have all their attention, you call up the rival companies and put them on a video chat. You then tell your current company that despite the fact your company was willing to give you the most money they could under governmental regulations, and after doing everything you had ever asked of them, and knowing your departure would cost them massive amounts of money and a lot of the people there would probably lose their jobs, you were going to the rival for a little less money to work with friends. You then made them all watch the rival company celebrate your departure and had a limo drive up as you left the company in shambles to party with your friends at the new company. Most of us working folks probably wouldnt do that either.....

Are we talking about "The Decision" show or are we talking about NBA superstars right to go work wherever they want, just like us?  I thought this thread you started was about you having a problem with Chris Paul and other superstars wanting to go play for somebody else, while I support their right for them to choose to play with whoever will offer them a job, just like I will go to work for the best company I want that will allow me to work there.

[KG Living Legend]

 You wanna know what's funny? when the Pats signed Stallworth, Traded for Welker, and traded for Randy Moss, they were "great moves".  And when Danny trades for KG, and Ray,  Dealing Danny was Brilliant.

 So if you put yourself in the shoes of Wade, who won early and is an afterthought come Playoff time even though he is easily one of the top players in the game.  

 Bosh who right is a top three Power Forward in the game. I'll take Gasol, and Amare over him and that's it. KG if he's back from injury.   And he's been in Canada he barley knows what A Playoff game is.

 And then we have Lebrondo.  Who looked for a while to be the next great player, but we can see his flaws now. As does he.
 He is a great player but he really does need a "Dwayne Wade" type player.  Who was going to take the last shot in Chicago if Bron joined them??  James? Rose? Deng? Boozer?  None of those guys are that clutch.  Not D-wade Clutch.

 And on top of that you get to play with a top three PF in the game. So Smarts wise. I think they, and especially Lebron made a "smart decision"  As far as constructing a team that will succeed. And if you were Lebron and wanted to win five or six rings, and you played seven years and have not even won an NBA finals game, you probably would too.

[More Banners]

I don't fault Miami for playing within the rules to get the cap space needed to sign ... What bothered me was a set of players not under contract to any team conspiring to play together to create a superteam.

I also don't feel this situation relates to what Boston or even LA did 3 years ago in assembling their championship line-ups.  ....  Completely different from Miami which won the sweepstakes for swiping someone else's talent with little to no cost to themselves (sorry, draft picks for Bron isn't going to even begin to balance out the talent loss for Cleveland).

Good points.  I think the main issue is the balance of power between owners and players.  It goes back to Stern, who put the marketing power behind individuals over teams in the 80's, which was well and good (not really, imo), but now the players are cashing in on the power they now have to control the franchise, since they now ARE the franchise more than ever.

But it occured to me that the owners of Cleveland and Toronto capitualed yet again by doing the S&T, enabling the players to have their cake (choice of team) and eat it too (guaranteed years/money).  If I were Dan Gilbert, I would've gave much more serious consideration to not bothering with taking back two sure-to-be-late 1st round picks that are so far into the future as to be irrelevant.  The owners, by not playing hardball on the S&T issue, enabled the situation.