I don't like LBJ but Magic & MJ are full of it

[TitleMaster]

I think enough is enough, with both MJ and Magic acting as if they hold the badge of courage/honor for the NBA.

I understand that LeBron's a drama queen and all that that goes with it but let's get real...

Magic was a rookie, recruited into a team with Jabbar, Nixon, Wilkes, sophomore Michael Cooper, and a few tested veterans off the bench. Sorry, that wasn't going it *alone* by a long shot. And yes, Magic filing in for Kareem in that Game 6 was stuff for the history books.

When MJ's Bulls starting reaching the ECF, they had Pippen, Grant, Cartwright, Armstrong, and Paxton. When MJ retired in '93, instead of folding, this squad maintained the same defensive intensity and then, re-distributed the scoring load to Pippen and Grant, and lost a whole 2 games to the prior MJ-only season.

The point is that neither legends were on failing teams like they like to remember themselves. They both had good coaches, general managers, and a supporting cast.

Now, if Hakeem Olajuwon steps up and starts criticizing LBJ then it's understandable because he was clearly on a losing team until they got Maxwell, Thrope, Smith, and Cassell together.

[GreenFaith1819]

I think enough is enough, with both MJ and Magic acting as if they hold the badge of courage/honor for the NBA.

I understand that LeBron's a drama queen and all that that goes with it but let's get real...

Magic was a rookie, recruited into a team with Jabbar, Nixon, Wilkes, sophomore Michael Cooper, and a few tested veterans off the bench. Sorry, that wasn't going it *alone* by a long shot. And yes, Magic filing in for Kareem in that Game 6 was stuff for the history books.

When MJ's Bulls starting reaching the ECF, they had Pippen, Grant, Cartwright, Armstrong, and Paxton. When MJ retired in '93, instead of folding, this squad maintained the same defensive intensity and then, re-distributed the scoring load to Pippen and Grant, and lost a whole 2 games to the prior MJ-only season.

The point is that neither legends were on failing teams like they like to remember themselves. They both had good coaches, general managers, and a supporting cast.

Now, if Hakeem Olajuwon steps up and starts criticizing LBJ then it's understandable because he was clearly on a losing team until they got Maxwell, Thrope, Smith, and Cassell together.

Well, I respectfully disagree here - I think the thing is, is that Magic, Michael And Larry MADE their teams....LA, Boston or CHI were Not going to win Anything without those three - no matter what the talent level around them.

To me, both LA and Boston were playoff teams minus Larry or Magic, but certainly not Championship material. Same with Michael.

[TitleMaster]

True, MJ, Magic, and Larry were key franchise players, however, their respective teams were excellent.

In contrast, LBJ were on average role playing teams much more like Olajuwon until Cassell's arrival. During Ramadan, Hakeem wouldn't eat and the Rockets were nearly 100% beatable. After that month, all of the sudden, they started crushing opponents again.

I'm hoping you understand what I'm getting at, there are only a handful of players, like Wilt, like Hakeem, who are close to a one man show sans the final *title* w/o help since normally, during elimination games, the opponents deny the franchise player the ball and force someone else to win the game.

[GreenFaith1819]

True, MJ, Magic, and Larry were key franchise players, however, their respective teams were excellent.

In contrast, LBJ were on average role playing teams much more like Olajuwon until Cassell's arrival. During Ramadan, Hakeem wouldn't eat and the Rockets were nearly 100% beatable. After that month, all of the sudden, they started crushing opponents again.

I'm hoping you understand what I'm getting at, there are only a handful of players, like Wilt, like Hakeem, who are close to a one man show sans the final *title* w/o help since normally, during elimination games, the opponents deny the franchise player the ball and force someone else to win the game.

Ah - I see..I somewhat missed your point at first. My bad.

I also believe that a smidgen of some of this criticism could be some unfounded fear from Magic or Michael that Lebron could very well one day have a legacy greater than theirs.

I think the greatest thing here is that we have not heard Larry weigh in on this. He knows he was great, and don't have to speak it.

[Change]

Ol'Timers always putting down the new crop of NBA stars. They seem bitter for whatever reason, live and let live. Like you said, I'd really be interested Hakeem thoughts. He along with Russell are the most genuine. The rest come off as dogs and hateful.

[GreenFaith1819]

I just wonder if Lebron is reading some of this criticism...I wonder if he had it to do all over again - would he have left CLE?

If he remained in CLE, with that same group of players....they would beat MIA with Wade and Bosh easily, I think.

[Birdbrain]

True, MJ, Magic, and Larry were key franchise players, however, their respective teams were excellent.

In contrast, LBJ were on average role playing teams much more like Olajuwon until Cassell's arrival. During Ramadan, Hakeem wouldn't eat and the Rockets were nearly 100% beatable. After that month, all of the sudden, they started crushing opponents again.

I'm hoping you understand what I'm getting at, there are only a handful of players, like Wilt, like Hakeem, who are close to a one man show sans the final *title* w/o help since normally, during elimination games, the opponents deny the franchise player the ball and force someone else to win the game.

Ah - I see..I somewhat missed your point at first. My bad.

I also believe that a smidgen of some of this criticism could be some unfounded fear from Magic or Michael that Lebron could very well one day have a legacy greater than theirs.

I think the greatest thing here is that we have not heard Larry weigh in on this. He knows he was great, and don't have to speak it.

No I'm pretty positive that, that will never happen.  So I doubt that they are overly concerned about it.  They are speaking the truth and some people are starting to feel bad for him. I say who cares.  You name yourself King and then bolt at 25 to coattail while making a fool of your home state (the one you promised you would bring a Ring, hmm rhymes with King) you deserve everything you get.

ESPN has now used injection to make you feel sorry for him so you'll be more apt to give them more page views.  It's sad really.

[GreenFaith1819]

True, MJ, Magic, and Larry were key franchise players, however, their respective teams were excellent.

In contrast, LBJ were on average role playing teams much more like Olajuwon until Cassell's arrival. During Ramadan, Hakeem wouldn't eat and the Rockets were nearly 100% beatable. After that month, all of the sudden, they started crushing opponents again.

I'm hoping you understand what I'm getting at, there are only a handful of players, like Wilt, like Hakeem, who are close to a one man show sans the final *title* w/o help since normally, during elimination games, the opponents deny the franchise player the ball and force someone else to win the game.

Ah - I see..I somewhat missed your point at first. My bad.

I also believe that a smidgen of some of this criticism could be some unfounded fear from Magic or Michael that Lebron could very well one day have a legacy greater than theirs.

I think the greatest thing here is that we have not heard Larry weigh in on this. He knows he was great, and don't have to speak it.

No I'm pretty positive that, that will never happen.  So I doubt that they are overly concerned about it.  They are speaking the truth and some people are starting to feel bad for him. I say who cares.  You name yourself King and then bolt at 25 to coattail while making a full of your home state (the one you promised you would bring a Ring, hmm rhymes with King) you deserve everything you get.

ESPN has now used injection to make you feel sorry for him so you'll be more apt to give them more page views.  It's sad really.

The sad thing is that you know David Stern loves all of this publicity.

When was the last time (Besides Summer of 2007) that the media was discussing the NBA in July? To this magnitude?

[the_Bird]

The other thing, too....   Magic was gunning for Larry, and Larry gunning for Magic, long before they were in the NBA.  Both lucked into some very good situations, and maybe things would have been different had they been stuck in bad situations for a half-dozen years - but their uber-competitiveness was forged long before Magic was a Laker or Larry was a C.

Read Jackie Mac's book, she does a great job showing how competitive these two guys were throughout their careers.  Their tremendous respect came about later on, but even then it's pretty clear they ALWAYS wanted to beat each other.

[Change]

ESPN has now used injection to make you feel sorry for him so you'll be more apt to give them more page views.  It's sad really.

ESPN damages the inside of your cranium. I highly recommend turning it off. JK,   Now knowing that i view the James situation same as them, it makes feel dirty, ew....

[MiamiCelticfan]

These guys arent't full of it. What theyre basically saying is Lebron your Robin, nor batman. The perception of Lebron was that he was a first class competitor, a winner, a leader, a guy willing to pay the price to be great. Kings and chosen one's don't do what he elected to do. I gurantee had he chosen chicago or NY he wouldnt be taking this much heat.

He chose not to take the path Isiah, Jordan, Ewing, Reggie Miller took. All of these guys had to pay thier dues. Lebron chose to take the easy way out. Lebron was percieved with all of the hype coming out of high school to be in the jordan, kobe, magic, bird mode. The hype was way to premature. Lebron is physically gifted, but mentally soft something the all-time greats never were.

All Jordan and magic are saying is dont compare him to us, because we accepted the challange not run from it. I love these ols school players telling it like it is.

[More Banners]

Magic won the title his rookie year.  Larry won it his sophomore year.  Not exactly parallel.

MJ was drafted by a terrible Bulls team, as Lebron was drafted by a terrible Cavs team that featured Ricky Freakin' Davis as their best player.  Think about that...  Okay.  Now, neither won the title in their first 7 years in the league.  Now it's starting to make sense.  During Mike's early years in Chicago, he was clearly a great individual player that won a lot of games by himself, but of course no single player can win a title by himself.  

Over time, pieces were added and the Bulls started making runs...just like Cleveland, which has done absolutely everything possible to bring in talented players to make a run with Lebron, not to keep Lebron happy, but because that's what teams are supposed to do.

Cleveland is not a losing team; they had the best record in the league last year, and have been a top-team for easily the last three years.  But rather than leading the very, very good team to a the title, Lebron is jumping on the bandwagon.

Why?  Well, lots of reasons, but to continue the MJ comparison:  Lebron hasn't learned to play team ball, and hasn't had a coach or teammates insist on it since Paul Silas left (involuntarily, after suggesting Lebron could perhaps play defense).  Lebron hasn't played team ball (for whatever reason), and is only starting to play defense at a high level consistently (not counting the flashy full-court blocks).  I'm not sure he's willing to work has hard as it takes to fully develop his ability.  In short, he will never reach the potential that others' think he has.  By jumping on the bandwagon, he seems to be conceding the point, IMO.  He just doesn't have the drive or the mentality to go along with the talent. 

So, to me, this ends the Lebron/Kobe debate.

[Celtics17]

I have to disagree with Lebron not playing team ball and for that matter that Cleveland is a good team. Sure, they are with Lebron but let's see what they do this year. Guys, like him or not, Lebron is the best player in the game. Noone called MJ a winner either till he started winning titles. I think you will see exactly how much of team player Lebron is this year. And, for anyone who thinks that Heat team will cave for this reason or that, you are in for one heck of a surprise. I am a C's fan through and through but I still think Miami will give every team in the league fits.

[More Banners]

I have to disagree with Lebron not playing team ball and for that matter that Cleveland is a good team. Sure, they are with Lebron but let's see what they do this year. Guys, like him or not, Lebron is the best player in the game. Noone called MJ a winner either till he started winning titles. I think you will see exactly how much of team player Lebron is this year. And, for anyone who thinks that Heat team will cave for this reason or that, you are in for one heck of a surprise. I am a C's fan through and through but I still think Miami will give every team in the league fits.

Well, maybe it was the coach/plays, but if you asked any coach in the league how lebron would be the most potent offensively, if the question even makes sense about someone who scores as much as he does, but I'm pretty sure the idea of Lebron posting up and/or him coming off screens and receiving the ball 17 feet out would be higher on the list than him shooting jumpers or coming out to half court, taking the ball away from their PG, and bulldozing to the hoop again and again.

I'm sure he will share the ball nicely with Wade and Bosh, yet at the same time I wonder why he had the ball so often in Cleveland, even as better and better offensive players kept coming on board.

[TitleMaster]

Over time, pieces were added and the Bulls started making runs...just like Cleveland, which has done absolutely everything possible to bring in talented players to make a run with

I would argue that Chicago was both, a better formed and better coached squad than Cleveland. The reality of the situation was that in the '94 Eastern Semi-Conf, when Jordan was on hiatus, they had almost won. Remember the famous fathom foul against Pippen in Game 5. Well ... that was 'cause the *Jordan rules* weren't in effect that year. And still, the Bulls took it a full 7 games before losing to a 3pt-er by Ewing. I very much suspect that any of the recent Cavs squads would have folded a lot earlier than either game 6 or 7 of any series w/o Lebron. And for the mid-90s Rockets, a Hakeem-free team wouldn't have passed the first round of the playoffs. Sorry, but Cassell wasn't gonna make it happen w/o the big guy around.

I think the big three of MJ, Magic, and Bird were the X-factors which made their very good-to-excellent squads, champions.