What was Cleveland's role in James Leaving?

[soap07]

As far as the Cavs go - they had the best record in the NBA the last two seasons. It's hard to think that he wasn't on a good team based on that fact alone. The Cavs have been to the Eastern conference finals for five straight years reaching the finals once. They have been knocking on the door, but just couldn't get it done. I don't blame Cleveland at all.

During the regular season, the team could get away with LeBron having an off-night here and there. You can beat, say, the Nets if LeBron doesn't go off for 30-10-10. The problem is that the Cavs were structured in such a way that against good teams such as the C's and Magic, LeBron could not afford to have a single bad game. Do you think that if Kobe was on the Cavs and played a similaar game against the Celtics as he did in Game 7 the Cavs win that game? No way.

[Fafnir]

Anderson Varejao could not be the 6th man on a championship team

AV could be an ideal 6th man a backup big who can play either 4/5 who rebounds, is an efficient low usage player, and plays high level defense?

Posey was just that except at the 3/4 positions and he shot three pointers instead of rolling to the hoop hard for dunks and put backs.

[boom]

/did not read thread expect page 1

How can people still be making excuses for LeBron leaving and not winning anything. With Brown coaching and these "crappy" teams people talk about, the least they've won was 45 games! They still made the playoffs each year!

It's mind boggling that the best team in basketball during the regular season and then the "expert pick" to win it all have a "crappy" team. I dont buy it.

Sure there wasn't a Pippen on the team, but they still managed to win games. Sixty of them even. Stop with these excuses already.

[Moranis]

As far as the Cavs go - they had the best record in the NBA the last two seasons. It's hard to think that he wasn't on a good team based on that fact alone. The Cavs have been to the Eastern conference finals for five straight years reaching the finals once. They have been knocking on the door, but just couldn't get it done. I don't blame Cleveland at all.

During the regular season, the team could get away with LeBron having an off-night here and there. You can beat, say, the Nets if LeBron doesn't go off for 30-10-10. The problem is that the Cavs were structured in such a way that against good teams such as the C's and Magic, LeBron could not afford to have a single bad game. Do you think that if Kobe was on the Cavs and played a similaar game against the Celtics as he did in Game 7 the Cavs win that game? No way.

This really does seem to be the Cavs problem.  Lebron is so good that any team he is on will easily win 50 games, but without a true #2 guy no team can win a championship.  None.  And I know the 04 Pistons won without a #1 guy, but they had 4 #2 guys and a #3 guy, and played in a very weak year. 

[sk7326]

Cleveland tried - and failed.  Frankly after losing to Orlando last year, they made a bunch of moves to BEAT THE MAGIC.  That was the only reason they acquired Shaq - to beat the Magic.  They had a team built to beat Orlando, but forgot to have a team that could beat the Celtics. 

That said, the Cavs were pro-active.  Every move they made was to try to win while LeBron was around.  They tried to find the right pieces around LeBron.  They won 128 games in 2 years, made one NBA final and an East Final.  LeBron as a 25 year old in his prime athlete, was not in a position where the team was spinning its wheels. 

This was not Ray Allen and KG, each with 13 seasons under their belt, coming off of sub .500 seasons joining forces for once shot at glory.  LeBron is leaving a contender that was a contender because of the lifting he had to do (the same way the Lakers are a contender because of Kobe) because he did not want that stress. 

That's fine.  Some people are not built to be the lead dog.  I just never thought someone would say that out loud on national TV.   

[Bankshot]

I wonder if Lebron's decision not to trade Hickson for Amare because because if he won with Amare he wouldn't have the justification to leave for Miami.  He gave up in game 5 like he didn't want to win and threw off his jersey when they lost like it was his last game in Cleveland, which it was.  This whole thing seems so calculated.  I believe he made the decision to go to Miami long ago.

[wdleehi]

The Cavs spent to much time trying to please Lebron with moves he gave his thumbs up instead of making the moves that in the long run, would have made the team a title contender.



Look at Chicago and Jordon.  They made moves he hated (Oakley for Cartright; signing Kukoc)  But, they were the right moves and in the end, worked out.


I have said it before.  I think the front office (as well as the head coach) for cleveland was terrible.  They just lucked into Lebron James.  

[wdleehi]

I wonder if Lebron's decision not to trade Hickson for Amare because because if he won with Amare he wouldn't have the justification to leave for Miami.  He gave up in game 5 like he didn't want to win and threw off his jersey when they lost like it was his last game in Cleveland, which it was.  This whole thing seems so calculated.  I believe he made the decision to go to Miami long ago.

From what I hear, if he won, it would have been his parting gift to Cleveland. 

[Eja117]

When's the last time in history a team has won with a player the caliber of Mo Williams as their second best player?

It's hard to tell if Lebron had a huge say in who they signed or traded for, but even if he did, that is ownership/management's fault for giving him too much control when it is their job to evaluate players and fits.

Tim Duncan did it two or three times.

Hakeem did it with Robert Horry and Sam Cassell before Clyde Drexler showed up the next year.

Manu, David Robinson, and Tony Parker are were better players than Mo Williams by a wide margin. (at the respective points when TD won the title)

For his first title David Robinson was an old man one year removed from a season blanking knee injury and he didn't have Manu and I don't think he had Parker.

For his nex title he had a 19 year old Parker.

Duncan didn't have anything Lebron didn't have for his first two titles.

Lebron James has played with a player that has averaged a double double while playing with him.  when did that happen?

Well wait a second. If he's so great he shouldn't have to right?

I mean he had Big Z when he was an all-star. That wasn't good enought.

He had Boozer right before he signed a huge contract so I assumed his numbers were ok, but that wasn't good enough either, even though Big Z was also a good player at the time.

Then they gave him Shaq this year along with Jamison who's not so far removed from all-star play, along with Varajao (wasn't he like 9 and 9 off the bench) and a spry JJ Hickson, but no...that wasn't good enough either even though James himself is like way bigger than virtually every wing man in the league and many power forwards.

Apparently the King needs to play with some 7ft 5 monster like Shaq in his youth on roids or something for him to win. I think that's probably because James isn't that good.

[Fan from VT]

The Cavs spent to much time trying to please Lebron with moves he gave his thumbs up instead of making the moves that in the long run, would have made the team a title contender.



Look at Chicago and Jordon.  They made moves he hated (Oakley for Cartright; signing Kukoc)  But, they were the right moves and in the end, worked out.


I have said it before.  I think the front office (as well as the head coach) for cleveland was terrible.  They just lucked into Lebron James.  

Well, as an organization, they were bad enough to earn the #1 pick in the first place, right? So a few of these happened before James, but they show general owner idiocy and a lack of being able to think ahead.

-Botched the hand-shake deal and thus lost boozer
-2005 lottery pick had been lost in '97 acquiring wesley person and tony dumas. Used for May, it could have been Granger or David Lee.
-Gave andre miller for darius miles.
-Gave away a first round pick (jared Dudley, could have been wilson chandler, rudy fernandez, carl landry, aaron brooks, glen davis) to get lamond murray.
-They signed Kapono (2nd round pick same year as Lebron) to a ONE YEAR contract (wouldn't he have been a nice shooting partner?)
-Dumped Ricky Davis for basically nothing. Thus set the very early precedent that this was James' team and no one elses.
-Grabbed Luke Jackson ahead of Biedrins, Al Jefferson, Josh Smith, Jameer Nelson. Made up for it somewhat with the nice Verajao pick at 31.
-To get Jiri Welsh they gave up the pick eventually used on Rudy Fernandez (traded to get Rondo) AND they had to remove the protections on that Sean May pick that was lottery protected. Ouch.
-Then in ONE offseason, they gave the ridiculous Hughes, Marshall, Damon Jones, and Ilgauskas contracts. I believe James himself wanted Ilgauskas back. The rest?


So that's just a sampling. But it shows several things, regardless of who is in charge:

-terrible planning for the future, mortgaging capspace and picks for mediocre talent at best
-terrible draft picks in general
-A complete unwillingness to tell Lebron that he's a great player but not a GM, and that the front office could figure out what kind of team to build.

[Moranis]

I wonder if Lebron's decision not to trade Hickson for Amare because because if he won with Amare he wouldn't have the justification to leave for Miami.  He gave up in game 5 like he didn't want to win and threw off his jersey when they lost like it was his last game in Cleveland, which it was.  This whole thing seems so calculated.  I believe he made the decision to go to Miami long ago.

for the love of god man, I posted in this actual thread links to stories which have definitively said the Cavs offered Hickson.  It was the Suns that backed out. 

Please let this awful untrue nonsense just go away.

The Cavs were offering HICKSON for AMARE.

Say it again with me this time.

The Cavs were offering HICKSON for AMARE.

[Moranis]

Lebron James has played with a player that has averaged a double double while playing with him.  when did that happen?

Well wait a second. If he's so great he shouldn't have to right?

Almost every championship team has an A+ level player and at least one more A level player.  Lebron has never played with even a B+ level player.

I mean he had Big Z when he was an all-star. That wasn't good enought.

Big Z was an all star in Lebron's second year (a season he averaged a whopping 16.9 points and 8.6 boards) and has been getting worse every single season since then (which tends to happen after you turn 30).

He had Boozer right before he signed a huge contract so I assumed his numbers were ok, but that wasn't good enough either, even though Big Z was also a good player at the time.

Lebron played with Boozer as a rookie.  He joined the team as a rookie and they won 18 additional games over the Boozer led team from the year before.  

Then they gave him Shaq this year along with Jamison who's not so far removed from all-star play, along with Varajao (wasn't he like 9 and 9 off the bench) and a spry JJ Hickson, but no...that wasn't good enough either even though James himself is like way bigger than virtually every wing man in the league and many power forwards.

Shaq played 53 games and can barely move.  He hasn't been good since he left Miami.  

Jamison is 33 years old and played with Lebron for 20 games (almost all of which Shaq wasn't healthy).  Jamison, at his best, was never anything more then a B level player, and he is not at his best.  

Varejao is a role player.  That is all he is and all he will ever be.

Hickson, seriously Hickson, a guy that mike brown didn't even have enough confidence to play consistently is a good player.  Seriously.

Apparently the King needs to play with some 7ft 5 monster like Shaq in his youth on roids or something for him to win. I think that's probably because James isn't that good.

Or maybe he just needs to play with a legitimate A level player.  KG, Allen, and Pierce all must have sucked and not been that good, I mean they couldn't win with all the all star players that they played with before joining forces.

One great player is not enough to win a championship.  It is a proven fact.  

[Eja117]

OMG no! Jamison is 33? Shaq is old? Big Z is old? JJ Hickson is inconsistent?

Oh I forgot that the Celts are all spring chickens and the model of health and our young guys are models of consistency.

So given all these seriously crippling problems for Lebron instead of giving up perhaps he should have tried harder? Maybe?

[Eja117]

In 1999 David Robinson went for a whopping 16 and 10. Not an A level player.  Tony Parker wasn't an A level player his rookie year.

Who was the A level player that Hakeem had for his first ring?

[theham]

On his podcast from a couple days ago, Bill Simmons alluded to something scandalous that he couldn't talk about that may have precipitated LeBron leaving even before the close of the season. Anyone know what he was referring to?