The "new" Big Three taking a wrong lesson from the Celtics?

[Roy Hobbs]

This hurts Lebron's legacy, no doubt about it.  History will probably remember him as the guy who couldn't win a title on his own, so he went elsewhere to have D. Wade get him one.  I think this solidifies him firmly behind Kobe in terms of best player of the era, and ends any discussion of "best small forward of all-time", let alone best player.

I fail to see how making a free agent move affects any of these things Roy.

It's not making a free agency move that hurts his image.  Shaq did it, and it wasn't a problem.  Rather, it's joining another established star's team, and basically admitting that he can't win unless he's beside two other stars.

I think this absolutely hurts Lebron's legacy.  If he'd gone to New York or Chicago and had won, people would have praised him for bringing those teams a championship if he won.  He still would have been the unquestioned leader of the team, and would have been widely perceived as a savior.

Going to Miami with Wade and Bosh?  He'll largely been seen as riding Wade's coattails, to some extent.  The narrative will now be that he needed D. Wade to win a title. 

I respect the decision, but I do think that the title of "the king" will suffer. 

But is it Wade's team?

They got rid of all the players Wade played with. The storyline is crap, Bird needed McHale and Parish. Shaq needed Kobe and Dwayne Wade, Magic needed Kareem and Worthy, and Kobe needed Gasol and Odom.

Yes, the Heat are Wade's team.  It would be like Magic leaving the Lakers to join the Celtics because he couldn't win.  Fair or not, the perception would have been that Magic needed Larry more than Larry needed Magic.  Wade has his ring, and he was the leader of that team.  That's something that Lebron will never be able to say. 

And yes, stars need help.  However, the truly elite guys generally don't leave their teams to join another established superstar, especially in the prime of their career.  I've got to think that this tarnishes Lebron's legacy.

I respect Lebron's decision, and I think it took some guts to make it.  I don't think he was a "coward" at all.  However, I do think this will hurt his image a bit, when judged against Kobe in this era, or when he's compared to the best of all time.  Lebron, in my opinion, just removed himself from the conversation of whether he belongs on MJ's level.

[thirstyboots18]

the King, ha ha ha

Love me tender, love me true, never let me go...you have made my life complete, and I love you sooooooooooo.  (Must have been puppy love.)  

If at first you don't succeed, lower your expectations,  grab on to someone else's coat tails, steal their glory, and hope they can carry you to your goal.

[Who]

This hurts Lebron's legacy, no doubt about it.  History will probably remember him as the guy who couldn't win a title on his own, so he went elsewhere to have D. Wade get him one.  I think this solidifies him firmly behind Kobe in terms of best player of the era, and ends any discussion of "best small forward of all-time", let alone best player.

I fail to see how making a free agent move affects any of these things Roy.

It's not making a free agency move that hurts his image.  Shaq did it, and it wasn't a problem.  Rather, it's joining another established star's team, and basically admitting that he can't win unless he's beside two other stars.

I think this absolutely hurts Lebron's legacy.  If he'd gone to New York or Chicago and had won, people would have praised him for bringing those teams a championship if he won.  He still would have been the unquestioned leader of the team, and would have been widely perceived as a savior.

Going to Miami with Wade and Bosh?  He'll largely been seen as riding Wade's coattails, to some extent.  The narrative will now be that he needed D. Wade to win a title. 

I respect the decision, but I do think that the title of "the king" will suffer. 

But is it Wade's team?

They got rid of all the players Wade played with. The storyline is crap, Bird needed McHale and Parish. Shaq needed Kobe and Dwayne Wade, Magic needed Kareem and Worthy, and Kobe needed Gasol and Odom.

Yes, the Heat are Wade's team.  It would be like Magic leaving the Lakers to join the Celtics because he couldn't win.  Fair or not, the perception would have been that Magic needed Larry more than Larry needed Magic.  Wade has his ring, and he was the leader of that team.  That's something that Lebron will never be able to say. 

And yes, stars need help.  However, the truly elite guys generally don't leave their teams to join another established superstar, especially in the prime of their career.  I've got to think that this tarnishes Lebron's legacy.

I respect Lebron's decision, and I think it took some guts to make it.  I don't think he was a "coward" at all.  However, I do think this will hurt his image a bit, when judged against Kobe in this era, or when he's compared to the best of all time.  Lebron, in my opinion, just removed himself from the conversation of whether he belongs on MJ's level.

I don't think it's Wade team.

LeBron is so talented that he will take over whatever team he is on.

It's like Michael Jordan going to New York and playing with Patrick Ewing and it still being Ewing's team. Or Hakeem and Houston. It's not the way it would work out ... Jordan would have been the top dog on whatever team he went to.

Wherever LeBron goes he will be the top dog.

[Fafnir]

I think a player's play on the court should determine his legacy more than who his team mates where.

If LeBron had stayed in Cleveland he could have been the KG of his era. You've argued that KG isn't as good as Duncan/Shaq/Kobe historically, mostly because he wasn't on good teams.

I don't think LeBron has closed any doors, rather he's opened them historically.

[Roy Hobbs]

This hurts Lebron's legacy, no doubt about it.  History will probably remember him as the guy who couldn't win a title on his own, so he went elsewhere to have D. Wade get him one.  I think this solidifies him firmly behind Kobe in terms of best player of the era, and ends any discussion of "best small forward of all-time", let alone best player.

I fail to see how making a free agent move affects any of these things Roy.

It's not making a free agency move that hurts his image.  Shaq did it, and it wasn't a problem.  Rather, it's joining another established star's team, and basically admitting that he can't win unless he's beside two other stars.

I think this absolutely hurts Lebron's legacy.  If he'd gone to New York or Chicago and had won, people would have praised him for bringing those teams a championship if he won.  He still would have been the unquestioned leader of the team, and would have been widely perceived as a savior.

Going to Miami with Wade and Bosh?  He'll largely been seen as riding Wade's coattails, to some extent.  The narrative will now be that he needed D. Wade to win a title. 

I respect the decision, but I do think that the title of "the king" will suffer. 

But is it Wade's team?

They got rid of all the players Wade played with. The storyline is crap, Bird needed McHale and Parish. Shaq needed Kobe and Dwayne Wade, Magic needed Kareem and Worthy, and Kobe needed Gasol and Odom.

Yes, the Heat are Wade's team.  It would be like Magic leaving the Lakers to join the Celtics because he couldn't win.  Fair or not, the perception would have been that Magic needed Larry more than Larry needed Magic.  Wade has his ring, and he was the leader of that team.  That's something that Lebron will never be able to say. 

And yes, stars need help.  However, the truly elite guys generally don't leave their teams to join another established superstar, especially in the prime of their career.  I've got to think that this tarnishes Lebron's legacy.

I respect Lebron's decision, and I think it took some guts to make it.  I don't think he was a "coward" at all.  However, I do think this will hurt his image a bit, when judged against Kobe in this era, or when he's compared to the best of all time.  Lebron, in my opinion, just removed himself from the conversation of whether he belongs on MJ's level.

I don't think it's Wade team.

LeBron is so talented that he will take over whatever team he is on.

It's like Michael Jordan going to New York and playing with Patrick Ewing and it still being Ewing's team. Or Hakeem and Houston. It's not the way it would work out ... Jordan would have been the top dog on whatever team he went to.

Wherever LeBron goes he will be the top dog.

It would be like if Michael Jordan went to Houston ringless, after Hakeem had won a ring.  I think that would have largely changed the way we view Jordan, as well.

[Rondo2287]

I think a player's play on the court should determine his legacy more than who his team mates where.

If LeBron had stayed in Cleveland he could have been the KG of his era. You've argued that KG isn't as good as Duncan/Shaq/Kobe historically, mostly because he wasn't on good teams.

I don't think LeBron has closed any doors, rather he's opened them historically.

Maybe, but i think what you are overlooking is that while KG wasnt on good teams, Lebron was, Cleveland finished with the best record two years in a row and then fell short in the playoffs.  At this point he is more like Peyton Manning, dominant regular seasons but choking when it counts most.

[Roy Hobbs]

You've argued that KG isn't as good as Duncan/Shaq/Kobe historically, mostly because he wasn't on good teams.

KG isn't as good as those players because he didn't *lead* his team to championships in his prime.  Instead, he was largely on lottery teams.  That's something that none of Duncan/Shaq/Kobe can claim.  Duncan has equal stats, and more rings (with three Finals MVPs.)  Thus, he gets the nod.

Winning rings helps Lebron's legacy more than being a career loser would, sure.  However, leaving his team to join Wade and Bosh limits what his legacy can become, in my mind.  He'll always be known as a great player, but he'll never be mentioned in quite the same breath as MJ (or even Kobe) again.

We can debate this all day, but I've already won the argument.  Look at the perception on the fan blogs, on ESPN, on other sports outlets.  Many, many fans and broadcasters are all saying the same thing:  Lebron will never be seen the same way again.  Lebron's star has been tarnished, and that alone is enough to keep him from being seriously considered on the MJ/Larry/Magic level, in my mind.  No matter what he does now, the perception will be that rather than lead his team to a title, he cried "help!" and ran to D. Wade.

[Fafnir]

Instead, he was largely on lottery teams

This isn't true, he wasn't in the lottery until after his WCF run.

And you're just adding to my point, the one thing you can throw at KG is his lack of team success. Kobe had a similar lack of success when his teams were garbage (like KG's), but people gloss that over because he eventually acquired a good enough team to win it all again.

We can debate this all day, but I've already won the argument.

Perceptions change. Kobe ran Shaq out of town, demanded a trade, and was accused of a very serious crime. Now he's the toast of LA again.

LeBron had the chance to get his teammates himself, rather than waiting for a GM/Owner to pull it off for him.

But its always nice to declare yourself the winner in a discussion when its still going on with a situation that's just now starting......

[Kane3387]

You've argued that KG isn't as good as Duncan/Shaq/Kobe historically, mostly because he wasn't on good teams.

KG isn't as good as those players because he didn't *lead* his team to championships in his prime.  Instead, he was largely on lottery teams.  That's something that none of Duncan/Shaq/Kobe can claim.  Duncan has equal stats, and more rings (with three Finals MVPs.)  Thus, he gets the nod.

Winning rings helps Lebron's legacy more than being a career loser would, sure.  However, leaving his team to join Wade and Bosh limits what his legacy can become, in my mind.  He'll always be known as a great player, but he'll never be mentioned in quite the same breath as MJ (or even Kobe) again.

We can debate this all day, but I've already won the argument.  Look at the perception on the fan blogs, on ESPN, on other sports outlets.  Many, many fans and broadcasters are all saying the same thing:  Lebron will never be seen the same way again.  Lebron's star has been tarnished, and that alone is enough to keep him from being seriously considered on the MJ/Larry/Magic level, in my mind.  No matter what he does now, the perception will be that rather than lead his team to a title, he cried "help!" and ran to D. Wade.

You're dead wrong. KG never had David Robinson, Manu Ginobili, or Tony Parker type compliments. The best he ever had was Sczerbiak, and sprewell and cassell both past their primes. To say Duncan's and KG's stats are similar means you already lost because if KG was on Duncan's teams his stats would have been better due to how much easier the game would have been for him playing with more talent. Give KG, in his prime, a Kobe or Shaq type compliment and he has a hand full of rings too.

Perceptions definitely change. Kobe is living proof of that. We can't predict the future so to say

"Lebron's star has been tarnished, and that alone is enough to keep him from being seriously considered on the MJ/Larry/Magic level, in my mind."

is very assuming and immature. Wade at 28 could become injury prone in 2 years and thus there is no question LeBron is THE GUY on this team. They still win 4 rings with Wade and Bosh as a great #2 and #3 option. It's all hypothetical but it is still realistic.

I don't like LeBron that much anymore and I will cheer against him because I can't pull for a guy who believes  he bigger than the sport itself. But the KG statement is flat out wrong. At some point a player's circumstances that aren't fully in his control have to be taken into consideration. KG is definitely on the Kobe/Duncan/Shaq level.

[Roy Hobbs]

Instead, he was largely on lottery teams

This isn't true, he wasn't in the lottery until after his WCF run.

And you're just adding to my point, the one thing you can throw at KG is his lack of team success. Kobe had a similar lack of success when his teams were garbage (like KG's), but people gloss that over because he eventually acquired a good enough team to win it all again.

No, it's not the only thing Duncan has over KG.  Duncan leads statistically, too.  He's averaged more points, rebounds, and blocks than KG, despite averaging fewer minutes.  He has a higher career FG%.  His playoff stats are better.  He's won more individual accolades.  And, to top it off, he's been the best player on his team for four championships; KG can arguably claim that he did that once.

As for Shaq / Kobe versus KG...  are you serious that KG belongs in the conversation?

We can debate this all day, but I've already won the argument.

Perceptions change. Kobe ran Shaq out of town, demanded a trade, and was accused of a very serious crime. Now he's the toast of LA again.

LeBron had the chance to get his teammates himself, rather than waiting for a GM/Owner to pull it off for him.

But its always nice to declare yourself the winner in a discussion when its still going on with a situation that's just now starting......

My argument is that this will affect his legacy.  He's already taken a huge hit with fans and commentators.  He'll win some of those fans back, but with others he won't.  Thus, his legacy with at least a percentage of the sport's fanbase has been damaged irreparably.  So yes, I'm going to declare myself the winner of this argument.

[Roy Hobbs]

To say Duncan's and KG's stats are similar means you already lost because if KG was on Duncan's teams his stats would have been better due to how much easier the game would have been for him playing with more talent.

?

When KG went to a team with more talent, didn't his stats actually decline, rather than improve?  Isn't that the historical trend, that players often put up empty stats on bad teams, and see statistical declines on good ones?

Give KG, in his prime, a Kobe or Shaq type compliment and he has a hand full of rings too.

Sure he would.  If Duncan played next to Shaq, he'd have more rings, as well.  However, Duncan never had more than good complementary players for teammates; none of an aged Robinson, Manu, or Parker are elite superstars in the class of Kobe or Shaq.  I'm not quite sure what you're arguing in relation to Duncan.

Duncan has four rings to one for KG.  Duncan has better stats, almost across the board.  Duncan has never been in the lottery, and has only lost in the first round twice (compared to four lottery trips and seven consecutive first round losses for KG).

I'm not sure why we're having this argument; generally, the player with better stats and more rings is given the respect he deserves.  I guess not when his rival wears green, though.

By the way, please don't call me immature.  I don't belittle you or call you names, and I'd appreciate it if you'd do the same.

[CelticWes34]

As a lifelong Celtic fan living in Ohio, I must admit I was pretty bummed last night when LeDiva made his announcement. It would be one thing to sign with another team; but did he really need an hour long spot to tell us? Dude is a sham!

I agree with Roy on this whole thing...James will never be looked upon the same again. He basically came out and said, "I can't win a title without D-Wade" and is now d***riding Wade to *try* and get a title. Chicago would have been a MUCH better and more logical choice rather than Miami (give me Boozer, Rose, Deng, Noah, and Taj Gibson over D-Wade, James, Bosh, a janitor, a cook and Spoelstra anyday).

James' legacy is tarnished because he had to leave HIS team to join Wade's team, not the other way around. Wade is Batman, Lebron is Robin; Want prison comparisons? Wade is Adibisi, LeBron is a prag!

James got pretty much all the players he coveted in Cleveland so I don't want to hear how they never built around him.

All I know is this, Boston likes beating both James and Wade...so how much fun will it be to beat them together on a team with that Predator looking mother******! GO CELTICS!

[wiley]

To say Duncan's and KG's stats are similar means you already lost because if KG was on Duncan's teams his stats would have been better due to how much easier the game would have been for him playing with more talent.

?

When KG went to a team with more talent, didn't his stats actually decline, rather than improve?  Isn't that the historical trend, that players often put up empty stats on bad teams, and see statistical declines on good ones?

Give KG, in his prime, a Kobe or Shaq type compliment and he has a hand full of rings too.

Sure he would.  If Duncan played next to Shaq, he'd have more rings, as well.  However, Duncan never had more than good complementary players for teammates; none of an aged Robinson, Manu, or Parker are elite superstars in the class of Kobe or Shaq.  I'm not quite sure what you're arguing in relation to Duncan.

Duncan has four rings to one for KG.  Duncan has better stats, almost across the board.  Duncan has never been in the lottery, and has only lost in the first round twice (compared to four lottery trips and seven consecutive first round losses for KG).

I'm not sure why we're having this argument; generally, the player with better stats and more rings is given the respect he deserves.  I guess not when his rival wears green, though.

By the way, please don't call me immature.  I don't belittle you or call you names, and I'd appreciate it if you'd do the same.

I tend to give KG the edge over Tim Duncan in intangibles.  I think Tim is a laid back guy and KG is the opposite.  I think KG's is the type who, in the right situation, can lead a team to repeats, three-peats, etc...It's not a knock on Tim.  No one really matches KG's fire.  I guess given the stats you have to give Tim the edge in overall talent....but I'd take KG if starting a team from scratch....

[Mizzy21390]

This hurts Lebron's legacy, no doubt about it.  History will probably remember him as the guy who couldn't win a title on his own, so he went elsewhere to have D. Wade get him one.  I think this solidifies him firmly behind Kobe in terms of best player of the era, and ends any discussion of "best small forward of all-time", let alone best player.

I fail to see how making a free agent move affects any of these things Roy.

It's not making a free agency move that hurts his image.  Shaq did it, and it wasn't a problem.  Rather, it's joining another established star's team, and basically admitting that he can't win unless he's beside two other stars.

I think this absolutely hurts Lebron's legacy.  If he'd gone to New York or Chicago and had won, people would have praised him for bringing those teams a championship if he won.  He still would have been the unquestioned leader of the team, and would have been widely perceived as a savior.

Going to Miami with Wade and Bosh?  He'll largely been seen as riding Wade's coattails, to some extent.  The narrative will now be that he needed D. Wade to win a title. 

I respect the decision, but I do think that the title of "the king" will suffer. 

But is it Wade's team?

They got rid of all the players Wade played with. The storyline is crap, Bird needed McHale and Parish. Shaq needed Kobe and Dwayne Wade, Magic needed Kareem and Worthy, and Kobe needed Gasol and Odom.

Yes, the Heat are Wade's team.  It would be like Magic leaving the Lakers to join the Celtics because he couldn't win.  Fair or not, the perception would have been that Magic needed Larry more than Larry needed Magic.  Wade has his ring, and he was the leader of that team.  That's something that Lebron will never be able to say. 

And yes, stars need help.  However, the truly elite guys generally don't leave their teams to join another established superstar, especially in the prime of their career.  I've got to think that this tarnishes Lebron's legacy.

I respect Lebron's decision, and I think it took some guts to make it.  I don't think he was a "coward" at all.  However, I do think this will hurt his image a bit, when judged against Kobe in this era, or when he's compared to the best of all time.  Lebron, in my opinion, just removed himself from the conversation of whether he belongs on MJ's level.

Roy's right. There's a big difference between saying, "Oh, Kobe needed Shaq, Shaq needed Wade, Bird needed McHale & Parish, Kobe needed Odom & Gasol.. etc

Do you ever wonder why no one mentions those things when we think about the rings these guys have won, but why Lebron going to Miami brings in this conversation?

Like Roy said, Lebron's legacy will be hurt because of the fact that he tried and tried to get a ring, but couldn't do it for 7 years so he left to go to another team and win one. Miami IS Wade's team. No question about that. Just because most of the players he played with were shipped out doesn't mean he's any less of the captain of the team. Or the fans. It's like saying the Celtics weren't PP's team when they shipped everyone out except for Rondo..

Basically, like Roy said, the difference is, you didn't see Magic going to the Celtics because we kept beating them year after year... Lebron left a team for less money to take the easy way out and win.

[Mizzy21390]

Instead, he was largely on lottery teams

This isn't true, he wasn't in the lottery until after his WCF run.

And you're just adding to my point, the one thing you can throw at KG is his lack of team success. Kobe had a similar lack of success when his teams were garbage (like KG's), but people gloss that over because he eventually acquired a good enough team to win it all again.

We can debate this all day, but I've already won the argument.

Perceptions change. Kobe ran Shaq out of town, demanded a trade, and was accused of a very serious crime. Now he's the toast of LA again.

LeBron had the chance to get his teammates himself, rather than waiting for a GM/Owner to pull it off for him.

But its always nice to declare yourself the winner in a discussion when its still going on with a situation that's just now starting......

The difference is Kobe acquired some people who grew to actually help him out. He didn't run to another team.. That's the difference between Kobe and Lebron. Now if Lebron was to stay in Cleveland and stay as the "king" and got some help, then no one would be talking. But that's not what he did, he ran. Did Kobe run? No. He stayed on his team, and made sure the office acquired some good players...