Author Topic: Talking to David Lee's Agent  (Read 21073 times)

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Re: Talking to David Lee's Agent
« Reply #60 on: July 03, 2010, 02:35:09 AM »

Offline BballTim

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Perkins and Baby do the things our teams needs a lot better than David Lee.


Perkins low post defense is arguably the best in the nba.  Perk is also a very good shot blocker, besides those 2 things neither player holds a candle to Lee.  Davis hustles his big butt off but Lee is superior in every aspect of the game.  I'm sure he can handle our defensive sets. 

  Dwight Howard averaged 12 a game on 47% shooting vs the Celts during the regular season, and 23 a game on 83% shooting vs the Knicks. In a related note, Orlando hits about 5 more threes a game vs the Knicks (at a higher fg%), no doubt in part due to the fact that Lee can't handle Howard on his own. I don't think that "besides those 2 things neither player holds a candle to Lee" is as accurate as "without those 2 things we can't get past the Magic". Don't underestimate the power of great defense in the playoffs.

Great defense his...well...great?  But keep in mind that as soon as SVG realized that DH is 10X more mobile than Perk and get Howard moving in S/R's with Nelson, Perk was not nearly as effective.

There is more than one way to defend.

There is more than one way to win.

Bring the best together.

Learn the roles.

Play together.

Win.

  So after last year's regular season, last year's playoffs, this year's regular season and part of this year's playoffs Van Gundy suddenly realized that DH was more mobile than Perk? Interesting. And there's more than one way to defend but our defense against Orlando is based on the ability of our center to guard Perk 1v1. Good luck plugging Lee into that.

Re: Talking to David Lee's Agent
« Reply #61 on: July 03, 2010, 10:31:41 AM »

Offline Meadowlark_Scal

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We should have made the movwe to get lee when we traded (lost) walker and got nate...packaged bbd with it and got lee......( that outta PO some) but lee is a better all around player than bbd, better post, rebounder and scorer. BBD is average an utility player, he isn't even as good as leon powe was when he was here before the knee injury..!

Re: Talking to David Lee's Agent
« Reply #62 on: July 03, 2010, 10:54:29 AM »

Offline More Banners

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Perkins and Baby do the things our teams needs a lot better than David Lee.


Perkins low post defense is arguably the best in the nba.  Perk is also a very good shot blocker, besides those 2 things neither player holds a candle to Lee.  Davis hustles his big butt off but Lee is superior in every aspect of the game.  I'm sure he can handle our defensive sets. 

  Dwight Howard averaged 12 a game on 47% shooting vs the Celts during the regular season, and 23 a game on 83% shooting vs the Knicks. In a related note, Orlando hits about 5 more threes a game vs the Knicks (at a higher fg%), no doubt in part due to the fact that Lee can't handle Howard on his own. I don't think that "besides those 2 things neither player holds a candle to Lee" is as accurate as "without those 2 things we can't get past the Magic". Don't underestimate the power of great defense in the playoffs.

Great defense his...well...great?  But keep in mind that as soon as SVG realized that DH is 10X more mobile than Perk and get Howard moving in S/R's with Nelson, Perk was not nearly as effective.

There is more than one way to defend.

There is more than one way to win.

Bring the best together.

Learn the roles.

Play together.

Win.

  So after last year's regular season, last year's playoffs, this year's regular season and part of this year's playoffs Van Gundy suddenly realized that DH was more mobile than Perk? Interesting. And there's more than one way to defend but our defense against Orlando is based on the ability of our center to guard Perk 1v1. Good luck plugging Lee into that.

Not quite...  Howard is more dangerous from the mid-post than the low post.  The quality of Perk's defense declines with each step away from the basket [he's a great LOW post defender].  Whenever Howard started working some one-dribble moves, i.e. the Waltonesque running hook, Perk wasn't nearly as effective, though nobody would be, as the NBA rules make it hard to defend a player that is moving.  The point is that Perk's value as an outstanding defender is limited to low-post situations, and in other situations he is average or worse (much worse offensively).  There is no question that David Lee is a much, much better basketball player than Perk, which means a trade involving the two as principle pieces would heavily, heavily favor the Celtics and would make the C's a better team.  We can talk about matching up with Orlando all day, when it may very well be true that Atlanta or Milwaukee would've been tougher playoff matchups with Perk unable to control Horford or Bogut. 

Re: Talking to David Lee's Agent
« Reply #63 on: July 03, 2010, 12:16:59 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Perkins and Baby do the things our teams needs a lot better than David Lee.


Perkins low post defense is arguably the best in the nba.  Perk is also a very good shot blocker, besides those 2 things neither player holds a candle to Lee.  Davis hustles his big butt off but Lee is superior in every aspect of the game.  I'm sure he can handle our defensive sets. 

  Dwight Howard averaged 12 a game on 47% shooting vs the Celts during the regular season, and 23 a game on 83% shooting vs the Knicks. In a related note, Orlando hits about 5 more threes a game vs the Knicks (at a higher fg%), no doubt in part due to the fact that Lee can't handle Howard on his own. I don't think that "besides those 2 things neither player holds a candle to Lee" is as accurate as "without those 2 things we can't get past the Magic". Don't underestimate the power of great defense in the playoffs.

Great defense his...well...great?  But keep in mind that as soon as SVG realized that DH is 10X more mobile than Perk and get Howard moving in S/R's with Nelson, Perk was not nearly as effective.

There is more than one way to defend.

There is more than one way to win.

Bring the best together.

Learn the roles.

Play together.

Win.

  So after last year's regular season, last year's playoffs, this year's regular season and part of this year's playoffs Van Gundy suddenly realized that DH was more mobile than Perk? Interesting. And there's more than one way to defend but our defense against Orlando is based on the ability of our center to guard Perk 1v1. Good luck plugging Lee into that.

Not quite...  Howard is more dangerous from the mid-post than the low post.  The quality of Perk's defense declines with each step away from the basket [he's a great LOW post defender].  Whenever Howard started working some one-dribble moves, i.e. the Waltonesque running hook, Perk wasn't nearly as effective, though nobody would be, as the NBA rules make it hard to defend a player that is moving.

  This is far from the case. It's been pretty well established during the last two playoffs vs the Celts that the farther from the basket Howard is when he gets the ball, the less effective he is. He scores on occasions on those running hooks vs Perk but he's almost as likely to miss the rim.

  The point is that Perk's value as an outstanding defender is limited to low-post situations, and in other situations he is average or worse (much worse offensively).  There is no question that David Lee is a much, much better basketball player than Perk, which means a trade involving the two as principle pieces would heavily, heavily favor the Celtics and would make the C's a better team.

  There is no question that Lee is a better player than Perk but the improvement to the Celts would be much more marginal than you imagine. People remember that the Celts lost in game 7 because they struggled to score late in the game. They remember the offensive droughts the team went through in other games during the season. But they seem to forget that almost every bit of success we enjoyed in the playoffs came from our outstanding defense, and sacrificing defense to improve our offense isn't the way to go. The better player isn't always the better fit.

  We can talk about matching up with Orlando all day, when it may very well be true that Atlanta or Milwaukee would've been tougher playoff matchups with Perk unable to control Horford or Bogut. 

  If you're expecting Lee to help on the defensive end against either player, good luck. Horford "ran wild" against Perk to the tune of 12 points a game, while the "much better" Lee held him to a mere 21 a game, which is about 50% above his average. And, you're right, Perk had trouble controlling Bogut. Andrew scored 25 a game against Perk and shot 60% from the field. Not to be outdone, Lee gave up 17 a game on 72% shooting, but Perk gave up those 25 points in 41 minutes a game, while Lee gave up the 17 in a mere 24 minutes a game. And I wouldn't count on Lee's help defense being in the same league as Perk's.

  I'm not saying Lee isn't a better overall player than Perk. I'm not even saying that Lee's improvements to our offense might not be bigger than what having him on the court takes away from our (calling card) defense. I'm just saying it's not a slam dunk.

Re: Talking to David Lee's Agent
« Reply #64 on: July 03, 2010, 12:45:23 PM »

Offline PosImpos

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Instead of arguing about the merits of Perk vs Lee, how about the merits of Perk + Lee?  I think David Lee is really a PF anyway.  You could do a lot worse than a front-court tandem of Perk + David Lee once Garnett retires.
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Re: Talking to David Lee's Agent
« Reply #65 on: July 03, 2010, 12:53:49 PM »

Offline Celts17Pride

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Best case scenario for us:

We trade Rasheed, Gaffney, and LaFayette, cash, and a #1 to New York.  We sign David Lee to a deal beginning at $9.9 million per season.  New York cuts Gaffney and LaFayette, and Rasheed retires, leaving New York's cap space intact.

Of course, I don't see a ton of incentive for New York there, since they're giving up an asset for not much of anything, but that's how we could structure it.

This is probably the only deal that would work for the Knicks. They don't want to take on salary and they get a 1st round pick. This has a chance IMO. Depends on better sign and trade offers for Lee.

Re: Talking to David Lee's Agent
« Reply #66 on: July 03, 2010, 01:08:38 PM »

Offline Cman

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Instead of arguing about the merits of Perk vs Lee, how about the merits of Perk + Lee?  I think David Lee is really a PF anyway.  You could do a lot worse than a front-court tandem of Perk + David Lee once Garnett retires.

Thank you.

Also, while All Stars hate to do it, it would be interesting to see how effective is Garnett coming off the bench and David Lee starting, depending on the match up. 

Can you imagine Garnett coming off the bench to play against some scrub PF, and that scrub's first thought when Garnett hikes his shorts and pounds the floor?  The scrub would probably soil himself.

I really like the idea of signing Lee.  He would help this year and in the future.

Of course, it would mean the Cs still need to sign a backup Center, since Perk will be out for half the year, and Cs would still need to address the backup SG and SF spots (assuming Ray Allen is resigned).  I suppose the MLE could be used to address the C and then Tony and Nate get resigned...
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Re: Talking to David Lee's Agent
« Reply #67 on: July 03, 2010, 01:13:30 PM »

Offline Rashi

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Instead of arguing about the merits of Perk vs Lee, how about the merits of Perk + Lee?  I think David Lee is really a PF anyway.  You could do a lot worse than a front-court tandem of Perk + David Lee once Garnett retires.

Thank you.

Also, while All Stars hate to do it, it would be interesting to see how effective is Garnett coming off the bench and David Lee starting, depending on the match up. 

Can you imagine Garnett coming off the bench to play against some scrub PF, and that scrub's first thought when Garnett hikes his shorts and pounds the floor?  The scrub would probably soil himself.

I really like the idea of signing Lee.  He would help this year and in the future.

Of course, it would mean the Cs still need to sign a backup Center, since Perk will be out for half the year, and Cs would still need to address the backup SG and SF spots (assuming Ray Allen is resigned).  I suppose the MLE could be used to address the C and then Tony and Nate get resigned...


I don't think we can resign Nate (even tho I would like to have him back), but now that we have signed Avery I really don't think we need Nate.

If DA can get Lee then that would be awesome; he is practically a walking double-double.

As for her backup for Perks, I think our best bet would to try to get Shaq for vet min. Have him start till Perkz comes back and then have him be the backup center. I'd obv want Haywood over Shaq, but I don't think Mavs will let him go.

Re: Talking to David Lee's Agent
« Reply #68 on: July 03, 2010, 01:13:54 PM »

Offline billysan

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Regardless of anyones opinion of David Lee's value compared to Baby and Perk, he still has to play in our system in order to prove or disprove the theory.

The guy is a PF playing out of position at center for the Knicks. I dont think any scoring or defense stats he compiled playing next to Al Harrington, Eddie Curry, Wilson Chandler or the rest of that roster can be seriously considered. Does anyone seriously think Perk or Baby would have put up better stats under the same conditions?

The fact remains that David Lee was the best player on the floor for the Knicks in most of the games he played the last two seasons in New York.
"First fix their hearts" -Eizo Shimabuku

Re: Talking to David Lee's Agent
« Reply #69 on: July 03, 2010, 02:01:04 PM »

Offline Actionjakson

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I would really like David Lee on this team.

Sheed's contract will be about 6 mil, and we could resign tony for about 4.5. Send those two and a draft pick or two to new york for David Lee (10-11 mil contract). Send them our first this year. and maybe a second the year after.

This still gives us the MLE. 

Hopefully we could use this on Mike Miller. And maybe use the minimum on someone like Rodney Carney, or T-Mac, or Joey Alexander, or Joey Graham

Rondo/Nate
Ray/Bradley/ Miller
PP/ Minimum Wing
KG/BBD
Lee/ Perk/ Erden
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Re: Talking to David Lee's Agent
« Reply #70 on: July 03, 2010, 03:02:17 PM »

Online snively

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Lee would be absolutely fantastic in a 3-big rotation with Garnett.  He's like Baby with speed, hops, long arms, rebounding ability and a sneaky Scola-style face-up game.  Play him with Garnett against smaller teams, play him with Perk against bigger teams.

Sheed/Baby/Gaffney/Lafayette and our 2011 1st rounder for David Lee at 5 years/65 mil.  Lee would really have to be in love with us for it to have any chance of happening.
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Re: Talking to David Lee's Agent
« Reply #71 on: July 03, 2010, 03:15:58 PM »

Offline Chris

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I have been thinking about this all day, and heres is the deal I can come up with that makes sense for both teams:

Boston trades: Ray Allen (resigned for a contract starting at $11 million), Sheed (who would be bought out by the Knicks for $3 million)

NY trades: David Lee (resigned for a contract starting at $10 million), Eddie Curry

If NY signs Amare to the max, this still leaves them with about $18 million in cap room. 

Boston gets a young, talented big man to solidify their front line, and although Curry's contract is tough to swallow, it is expiring, so could be used as an asset to get them a starting SG.

Not bad assuming LBJ is heading to NYC. Otherwise, why does Ray agree? He knows he can get a similar deal with Boston, which is his preferred destination (although NYC appears to be second).

It makes shooting a huge priority as you note. To that end, I think we should (in both this hypothetical example and for other more likely scenarios) put our 2011 #1 into play as required. It's going to be the worst draft in years outside the top few picks.

Well, this would be assuming he can't get a similar deal from Boston.  We have no idea what Boston is offering him.  Perhaps they are not offering anything near that kind of money, or they are standing strong at 2 years, and NY would offer 3 years. 

Re: Talking to David Lee's Agent
« Reply #72 on: July 03, 2010, 03:26:55 PM »

Offline hpantazo

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I have been thinking about this all day, and heres is the deal I can come up with that makes sense for both teams:

Boston trades: Ray Allen (resigned for a contract starting at $11 million), Sheed (who would be bought out by the Knicks for $3 million)

NY trades: David Lee (resigned for a contract starting at $10 million), Eddie Curry

If NY signs Amare to the max, this still leaves them with about $18 million in cap room. 

Boston gets a young, talented big man to solidify their front line, and although Curry's contract is tough to swallow, it is expiring, so could be used as an asset to get them a starting SG.

Not bad assuming LBJ is heading to NYC. Otherwise, why does Ray agree? He knows he can get a similar deal with Boston, which is his preferred destination (although NYC appears to be second).

It makes shooting a huge priority as you note. To that end, I think we should (in both this hypothetical example and for other more likely scenarios) put our 2011 #1 into play as required. It's going to be the worst draft in years outside the top few picks.

Well, this would be assuming he can't get a similar deal from Boston.  We have no idea what Boston is offering him.  Perhaps they are not offering anything near that kind of money, or they are standing strong at 2 years, and NY would offer 3 years. 

trading Ray kills our chances of contending next year. We must get a great player for Wallace plus junk and picks if we are to contend.

Re: Talking to David Lee's Agent
« Reply #73 on: July 03, 2010, 08:39:35 PM »

Offline Meadowlark_Scal

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Lee is probably out of there now anyway....Stoudamiare is going there..so they won't need lee anymore really...we might be able to get him....personaaly i am not worried about stoud- he has no heart anyway...never did , he just plays...has a lot of skill, size..ect...but no real heart..perfect for pheonix, not really East coast style..! Lee is a forward, not a center, his D, well perk is better there, even though perk needed improvements in his pick and roll ideology, he still was great man up on his guy...he just sometimes....loses him...like bynum...but gasol really doesn't move out of the lower area much......bynum did..howard...NEVER (3 or 30 seconds).....Lee would be good....is he part chinese..? LOL...!

Re: Talking to David Lee's Agent
« Reply #74 on: July 03, 2010, 08:54:03 PM »

Offline I Lack Maturity

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I would be thrilled if we could get Lee, I just don't see it happening. I think a team will pay him a lot more than some of you think. I hope you guys are right tho.