Do not sign Pierce; Blow it up!

[Jaycelt]

Yeah, I'm dying to go back to the old days over at Real GM, with people dusting off room in Springfield for Gerald Green. It was so much fun laughing at the people who rhapsodized over Orien Greene and Brandon Hunter in the summers, then watched another 50-loss pile of steaming dung in the regular season.

Interesting how no one in this thread contemplates the possibility of getting a little bit younger, perhaps through a targeted move of Wallace's contract.

It's either/or when neither is the right answer. You don't go it again with the same team, and blowing it up is pure insanity.

You put the starters out there - hopefully Rondo will close in on the ability to consistently score the basketball and make a couple of foul shots - and try to throw some youth around them.

You nailed it again Coach. 

[Roy Hobbs]

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With a good GM, I think the Celtics chances of building another contender are around 80-85%. Pretty close to a certainty. So long as the rebuild soon and properly (no Joe Dumars rushing the process and wasting cap flexibility on the likes of Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva).

I don't know how to gauge this current team's chances at a title yet. I need to see what the rest of the Eastern Conference landscape looks like before being able to put a number on that.

I think an 80% chance is greatly exaggerating our chances of rebuilding a true contender around Rondo, assuming that we're starting with basically a clean slate.  I mean, look at Deron Williams.  He's better than Rondo, is surrounded by a ton of talent, and yet he's never been in the Finals.  There are lots of talent-laden teams that never sniff contender status.

In almost all cases, teams need an elite superstar to win a championship.  I'm personally skeptical that Rondo will ever be in quite that class; he's an all-star and a top-five point guard, but I don't think he'll ever be seen as a top-five player in the NBA.  That means we'd have to get our superstar via draft, trade, or via free agency. 

Unless you land the #1 pick, the draft is a crap shoot.  Regarding trades, teams generally don't trade elite superstars, except at the very end of their careers. 

That leaves free agency.  How many contenders have been built via free agency?  The Lakers with Shaq, certainly.  Who else?  Also, I'm skeptical that players see Boston as a desirable free agent destination.  If Boston can offer the most money in free agency, sure, players will play here.  However, if Miami or one of the Texas teams can offer the same contract, for instance, would players come here when 1) taxes are higher, 2) the weather is worse and 3) the city of Boston still has an ugly (and inaccurate) stigma with a lot of players?

That doesn't mean that building a contender is impossible, but it's certainly not easy, either.  I'd say that the odds are 80% - 85% that we don't make a Finals appearance in the next decade after we begin our rebuilding phase.

[Who]

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With a good GM, I think the Celtics chances of building another contender are around 80-85%. Pretty close to a certainty. So long as the rebuild soon and properly (no Joe Dumars rushing the process and wasting cap flexibility on the likes of Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva).

I don't know how to gauge this current team's chances at a title yet. I need to see what the rest of the Eastern Conference landscape looks like before being able to put a number on that.

I think an 80% chance is greatly exaggerating our chances of rebuilding a true contender around Rondo, assuming that we're starting with basically a clean slate.  I mean, look at Deron Williams.  He's better than Rondo, is surrounded by a ton of talent, and yet he's never been in the Finals.  There are lots of talent-laden teams that never sniff contender status.

Utah has done a bad job of creating a contender.

They have been one player away from true title contention for three/four years and their GM has failed to make any moves. He has been gun shy.

Utah have settled for 50 win seasons instead of pushing on for a title.

[Tr1boy]

How does he dare believe he is better than Rondo still??

Just because he has played for the team all his life and helped us get a championship he believes that he has a right to receive basically a free 15 million year and 2 to 3 million extra per year.

WOW

 

[snively]

If only Pierce's and Rondo's games were a better mesh.  Still, Pierce's talent level is so high that I can't really see much positive from letting him and our short-term aspirations at contention go. 

Rondo's just going to have to make the most of it.

[snively]

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With a good GM, I think the Celtics chances of building another contender are around 80-85%. Pretty close to a certainty. So long as the rebuild soon and properly (no Joe Dumars rushing the process and wasting cap flexibility on the likes of Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva).

I don't know how to gauge this current team's chances at a title yet. I need to see what the rest of the Eastern Conference landscape looks like before being able to put a number on that.

I think an 80% chance is greatly exaggerating our chances of rebuilding a true contender around Rondo, assuming that we're starting with basically a clean slate.  I mean, look at Deron Williams.  He's better than Rondo, is surrounded by a ton of talent, and yet he's never been in the Finals.  There are lots of talent-laden teams that never sniff contender status.

In almost all cases, teams need an elite superstar to win a championship.  I'm personally skeptical that Rondo will ever be in quite that class; he's an all-star and a top-five point guard, but I don't think he'll ever be seen as a top-five player in the NBA. 

The Jazz have had a hard time building around that Kirilenko contract.  Locking up so much money in a player who fails to contribute significantly to a top 10 offense or a top 10 defense really hurts your title chances. 

We have to hope that Pierce's (and potentially Ray's) contract doesn't pose the same barrier to building a contending team post 2012.

[Junkyard Dawg]

Iguodala and ellis?  really?  I just have such a hard time believing posters like this aren't Lakers fans in disguise.

Let me just make one thing clear: the Celtics just STEAMROLLED through the Eastern conference.  We sent David Stern's posterboy for all things sacred, LBJ, off the court with his tail between his legs.  We laughed in reassurance while dwight howard tried to throw up hook shots over Perkins, with stan van gundy's face wincing in agony in the background.  We made a mockery out of the idea that this is a superstar's league.  And if the game hadn't all of a sudden started getting called differently, had the lakers not been gifted over twice as many free throws during the last few games, had SOMEBODY hit one more shot in that deciding game, and we probably would not even have to entertain this discussion.  

And there are supposed Celtics fans who want to blow it up?  So why, we can become a "championship contender" like the Cavs, or the Magic, who we just obliterated?

[BballTim]

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With a good GM, I think the Celtics chances of building another contender are around 80-85%. Pretty close to a certainty. So long as the rebuild soon and properly (no Joe Dumars rushing the process and wasting cap flexibility on the likes of Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva).

I don't know how to gauge this current team's chances at a title yet. I need to see what the rest of the Eastern Conference landscape looks like before being able to put a number on that.

I think an 80% chance is greatly exaggerating our chances of rebuilding a true contender around Rondo, assuming that we're starting with basically a clean slate.  I mean, look at Deron Williams.  He's better than Rondo, is surrounded by a ton of talent, and yet he's never been in the Finals.  There are lots of talent-laden teams that never sniff contender status.

In almost all cases, teams need an elite superstar to win a championship.  I'm personally skeptical that Rondo will ever be in quite that class; he's an all-star and a top-five point guard, but I don't think he'll ever be seen as a top-five player in the NBA.  That means we'd have to get our superstar via draft, trade, or via free agency. 

Unless you land the #1 pick, the draft is a crap shoot.  Regarding trades, teams generally don't trade elite superstars, except at the very end of their careers. 

That leaves free agency.  How many contenders have been built via free agency?  The Lakers with Shaq, certainly.  Who else?  Also, I'm skeptical that players see Boston as a desirable free agent destination.  If Boston can offer the most money in free agency, sure, players will play here.  However, if Miami or one of the Texas teams can offer the same contract, for instance, would players come here when 1) taxes are higher, 2) the weather is worse and 3) the city of Boston still has an ugly (and inaccurate) stigma with a lot of players?

That doesn't mean that building a contender is impossible, but it's certainly not easy, either.  I'd say that the odds are 80% - 85% that we don't make a Finals appearance in the next decade after we begin our rebuilding phase.

  Rondo's 24, still improving and becoming more consistent and last season was the best player on a team that went to game 7 of the nba finals. Isn't it a little bit late to say that we need to pair him with a superstar to win a title? I don't think the odds we'll get back to the finals is over 80%, but I doubt they're under 20. If you think we need a Wade or a Kobe or a Shaq then the odds are low. If you're just trying to approach the play we got from the other 4 starters it's less daunting.

[Dybdal]

They cant rebuild now.. why? because we took down every expectation that was set forth and allmost won a title, what could have been sweeter? winning ofcourse.. but what would be even sweeter? taking down the new lebron team in a best of 7.

I want to see that.. no i NEED to see that!

[Roy Hobbs]

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With a good GM, I think the Celtics chances of building another contender are around 80-85%. Pretty close to a certainty. So long as the rebuild soon and properly (no Joe Dumars rushing the process and wasting cap flexibility on the likes of Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva).

I don't know how to gauge this current team's chances at a title yet. I need to see what the rest of the Eastern Conference landscape looks like before being able to put a number on that.

I think an 80% chance is greatly exaggerating our chances of rebuilding a true contender around Rondo, assuming that we're starting with basically a clean slate.  I mean, look at Deron Williams.  He's better than Rondo, is surrounded by a ton of talent, and yet he's never been in the Finals.  There are lots of talent-laden teams that never sniff contender status.

In almost all cases, teams need an elite superstar to win a championship.  I'm personally skeptical that Rondo will ever be in quite that class; he's an all-star and a top-five point guard, but I don't think he'll ever be seen as a top-five player in the NBA.  That means we'd have to get our superstar via draft, trade, or via free agency. 

Unless you land the #1 pick, the draft is a crap shoot.  Regarding trades, teams generally don't trade elite superstars, except at the very end of their careers. 

That leaves free agency.  How many contenders have been built via free agency?  The Lakers with Shaq, certainly.  Who else?  Also, I'm skeptical that players see Boston as a desirable free agent destination.  If Boston can offer the most money in free agency, sure, players will play here.  However, if Miami or one of the Texas teams can offer the same contract, for instance, would players come here when 1) taxes are higher, 2) the weather is worse and 3) the city of Boston still has an ugly (and inaccurate) stigma with a lot of players?

That doesn't mean that building a contender is impossible, but it's certainly not easy, either.  I'd say that the odds are 80% - 85% that we don't make a Finals appearance in the next decade after we begin our rebuilding phase.

  Rondo's 24, still improving and becoming more consistent and last season was the best player on a team that went to game 7 of the nba finals. Isn't it a little bit late to say that we need to pair him with a superstar to win a title? I don't think the odds we'll get back to the finals is over 80%, but I doubt they're under 20. If you think we need a Wade or a Kobe or a Shaq then the odds are low. If you're just trying to approach the play we got from the other 4 starters it's less daunting.

When has Rondo won a title without a superstar beside him?  He's been paired with three all-stars; he hasn't come close to having to carry a team on his own.

Also, I know it's a dirty little secret around the blog, but Rondo didn't exactly excel against Orlando or LA.  He was okay, but he certainly wasn't a superstar; he had 10+ assists in only three of the final 13 games, and he shot 50% or better in only three games in those last 13 games, as well.  Rondo wasn't the only guy to see a fall off in his game, but his lessened play certainly hurt us.  He's not close to being a true "superstar".

[housecall]

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With a good GM, I think the Celtics chances of building another contender are around 80-85%. Pretty close to a certainty. So long as the rebuild soon and properly (no Joe Dumars rushing the process and wasting cap flexibility on the likes of Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva).

I don't know how to gauge this current team's chances at a title yet. I need to see what the rest of the Eastern Conference landscape looks like before being able to put a number on that.

I think an 80% chance is greatly exaggerating our chances of rebuilding a true contender around Rondo, assuming that we're starting with basically a clean slate.  I mean, look at Deron Williams.  He's better than Rondo, is surrounded by a ton of talent, and yet he's never been in the Finals.  There are lots of talent-laden teams that never sniff contender status.

In almost all cases, teams need an elite superstar to win a championship.  I'm personally skeptical that Rondo will ever be in quite that class; he's an all-star and a top-five point guard, but I don't think he'll ever be seen as a top-five player in the NBA.  That means we'd have to get our superstar via draft, trade, or via free agency.  

Unless you land the #1 pick, the draft is a crap shoot.  Regarding trades, teams generally don't trade elite superstars, except at the very end of their careers.  

That leaves free agency.  How many contenders have been built via free agency?  The Lakers with Shaq, certainly.  Who else?  Also, I'm skeptical that players see Boston as a desirable free agent destination.  If Boston can offer the most money in free agency, sure, players will play here.  However, if Miami or one of the Texas teams can offer the same contract, for instance, would players come here when 1) taxes are higher, 2) the weather is worse and 3) the city of Boston still has an ugly (and inaccurate) stigma with a lot of players?

That doesn't mean that building a contender is impossible, but it's certainly not easy, either.  I'd say that the odds are 80% - 85% that we don't make a Finals appearance in the next decade after we begin our rebuilding phase.

  Rondo's 24, still improving and becoming more consistent and last season was the best player on a team that went to game 7 of the nba finals. Isn't it a little bit late to say that we need to pair him with a superstar to win a title? I don't think the odds we'll get back to the finals is over 80%, but I doubt they're under 20. If you think we need a Wade or a Kobe or a Shaq then the odds are low. If you're just trying to approach the play we got from the other 4 starters it's less daunting.

When has Rondo won a title without a superstar beside him?  He's been paired with three all-stars; he hasn't come close to having to carry a team on his own.

Also, I know it's a dirty little secret around the blog, but Rondo didn't exactly excel against Orlando or LA.  He was okay, but he certainly wasn't a superstar; he had 10+ assists in only three of the final 13 games, and he shot 50% or better in only three games in those last 13 games, as well.  Rondo wasn't the only guy to see a fall off in his game, but his lessened play certainly hurt us.  He's not close to being a true "superstar".

TP...agree 100%,Magic Johnson said Rondo doesn't bring his A game consistently enough.In order for him to reach that next level of pg.he has to play great at least 7 out of every 10games,and he is good about 4 out 10 at the moment.He has to improve his freethrow shooting a whole lot.

[BballTim]

When has Rondo won a title without a superstar beside him?  He's been paired with three all-stars; he hasn't come close to having to carry a team on his own.

Also, I know it's a dirty little secret around the blog, but Rondo didn't exactly excel against Orlando or LA.  He was okay, but he certainly wasn't a superstar; he had 10+ assists in only three of the final 13 games, and he shot 50% or better in only three games in those last 13 games, as well.  Rondo wasn't the only guy to see a fall off in his game, but his lessened play certainly hurt us.  He's not close to being a true "superstar".

  Obviously Rondo hasn't won a title without a superstar next to him. But it's easy to argue that he went to game 7 of the finals without a superstar next to him. And saying he was paired with three all-stars isn't really true. And it's also a dirty little secret that Rondo was, in fact, excelling against Orlando until he started having problems with leg/back spasms. I thought you agreed that it affected his play in the 2nd half of that series but that doesn't seem to be the case.

  I agree that he didn't have his best series against LA. Part of it could have been physical. Part of it could have been LA's defense (which I wouldn't say was in any way superior to Cleveland or Orlando's. Part of it was undoubtedly the re-emergence of Pierce in the offense. But I'd say that after he's led his team to the finals, it's a little late to say he's incapable of it.

  Is Rondo close to being a "true superstar"? No. Will he ever be? I don't think we'll really know until PP either moves on or figures out how to better mesh with Rajon. Does he have to be one of the top 5 players in the game to get us back to the finals? No, he just has to impact the game like one and we've all seen him do that many times in the playoffs.

[BballTim]

TP...agree 100%,Magic Johnson said Rondo doesn't bring his A game consistently enough.In order for him to reach that next level of pg.he has to play great at least 7 out of every 10games,and he is good about 4 out 10 at the moment.He has to improve his freethrow shooting a whole lot.

  I agree that he needs to assert himself on a more consistent basis. But we're talking about the post-KG team. I don't think it's unrealistic to expect Rondo to be more consistent when he's 3-4 years older, do you? Also, I think Rondo sometimes tries too hard to get the big three going.

[Roy Hobbs]

When has Rondo won a title without a superstar beside him?  He's been paired with three all-stars; he hasn't come close to having to carry a team on his own.

Also, I know it's a dirty little secret around the blog, but Rondo didn't exactly excel against Orlando or LA.  He was okay, but he certainly wasn't a superstar; he had 10+ assists in only three of the final 13 games, and he shot 50% or better in only three games in those last 13 games, as well.  Rondo wasn't the only guy to see a fall off in his game, but his lessened play certainly hurt us.  He's not close to being a true "superstar".

  Obviously Rondo hasn't won a title without a superstar next to him. But it's easy to argue that he went to game 7 of the finals without a superstar next to him. And saying he was paired with three all-stars isn't really true. And it's also a dirty little secret that Rondo was, in fact, excelling against Orlando until he started having problems with leg/back spasms. I thought you agreed that it affected his play in the 2nd half of that series but that doesn't seem to be the case.

  I agree that he didn't have his best series against LA. Part of it could have been physical. Part of it could have been LA's defense (which I wouldn't say was in any way superior to Cleveland or Orlando's. Part of it was undoubtedly the re-emergence of Pierce in the offense. But I'd say that after he's led his team to the finals, it's a little late to say he's incapable of it.

  Is Rondo close to being a "true superstar"? No. Will he ever be? I don't think we'll really know until PP either moves on or figures out how to better mesh with Rajon. Does he have to be one of the top 5 players in the game to get us back to the finals? No, he just has to impact the game like one and we've all seen him do that many times in the playoffs.

Not to turn this into a Rondo thread, but:

1) The year we won a title, all of the "big three" were all-stars; and

2) Rondo's only elite game against Orlando came in Game 2.  The other games, he was okay-to-very-poor.

Obviously, I like Rondo.  I'm glad he's on our team.  I've repeatedly called him a top five PG.  However, a top-five PG isn't enough to turn a team into a contender, which is why I think the estimate of us having an 80% to 85% of contending after rebuilding to be way, way too high.

It's not a knock on Rondo, it's just the nature of the NBA.  Teams generally require an elite superstar to win, and those few teams that have deviated from that mold have had amazing ensembles full of all-star talent.  Putting together a team in either such manner -- i.e., acquiring a superstar or collecting three or four all-stars -- is extremely difficult to do. 

It's why I'll always be a Danny defender:  he turned Paul Pierce plus a collection of draft picks (none higher than #5) into a team that won a title and reached the Finals twice.  That's fairly miraculous, and I commend him for it.  However, I just don't think that he -- or anybody -- can be expected to catch lightning in a bottle twice.

[I Lack Maturity]

Iguodala and ellis?  really?  I just have such a hard time believing posters like this aren't Lakers fans in disguise.

Let me just make one thing clear: the Celtics just STEAMROLLED through the Eastern conference.  We sent David Stern's posterboy for all things sacred, LBJ, off the court with his tail between his legs.  We laughed in reassurance while dwight howard tried to throw up hook shots over Perkins, with stan van gundy's face wincing in agony in the background.  We made a mockery out of the idea that this is a superstar's league.  And if the game hadn't all of a sudden started getting called differently, had the lakers not been gifted over twice as many free throws during the last few games, had SOMEBODY hit one more shot in that deciding game, and we probably would not even have to entertain this discussion.  

And there are supposed Celtics fans who want to blow it up?  So why, we can become a "championship contender" like the Cavs, or the Magic, who we just obliterated?

I could not agree with you more. Give this group another chance to show the doubters that they can still play.