Is Ainge Talking to Max Contract Guys?

[celticsclay]

I hope not.
He'd be wasting his time, which is valuable, and better spent elsewhere, like on PP and RA, and on (realistic) MLE targets, like the Millers, JJ Reddick, etc.

I think Danny can walk and chew gum at the same time....

Yeah lets not act like Danny is Mark Blount here

[paintitgreen]

He is absolutely talking to their agents. The Cs are 15mil under the cap today if they just keep sheed's deal. So you can bet he's kicking tires to see who wants to play with rondo....

Incorrect, with Ray's and Paul's cap holds alone ($20m each), we're well over cap.

The only way we get that cap space, is if we renounce our rights to them and TA.

That's a technicality.  They could renounce them anytime they want (and they could actually unrenounce them if they wanted to as well).

In essence, the C's are 15 million under the cap right now.  But it doesn't matter, because that is not enough to sign a max guy, let alone fill a roster around them.

It IS a technicality, the Celtics do have the ability to have cap room, which is really all anybody has right now. For example, the Bulls haven't yet renounced their rights to guys like Brad Miller, so they don't technically have cap space yet. Miami hasn't yet renounced Jermaine O'Neal, so they don't technically have cap space yet. The Knicks haven't yet renounced David Lee et al. so they don't technically have cap space yet either. Celtics are in the same boat as far as "having cap space." (Granted, not as much as those teams, but they "have" it.)

However, Chris, if the Celtics renounce Pierce and Allen, they can't unrenounce them. Per Larry Coon Q. 34, the only circumstance under which a team can rescind a decision to renounce Bird rights is when the team renounces the rights in order to sign a restricted free agent, and that free agent's team matches the offer. And that situation is further limited, because you can't rescind a renouncement of rights if it takes you from below the cap to above the cap.

So let's say the Celtics renounce all their rights to open up $12-15 mil in cap space. They sign Rudy Gay to an offer sheet starting at $12 million a year. Seven days later, Memphis matches. Now, Boston is $12-15 million below the cap. They could not rescind their renouncing of the rights to Pierce and Ray because those cap holds would take Boston above the cap.

That is why no team will renounce Bird rights unless and until they physically sign a player. Even if a team comes to an agreement today with a free agent, that team won't renounce its Bird rights until a week or so from now when they are actually permitted to sign that free agent.

[ssspence]

I hope not.
He'd be wasting his time, which is valuable, and better spent elsewhere, like on PP and RA, and on (realistic) MLE targets, like the Millers, JJ Reddick, etc.

I think Danny can walk and chew gum at the same time....

I'm sure he can, but this is a little more than that.

He's not capable of calling the agents for 5 or 6 big free agents to guage their interest? It's more realistic to sign one of them than it is to land jj reddick, unless we indeed renounce pierce and serously overpay him. the magic will match anything up to the MLE, one would imagine..

[Cman]

I hope not.
He'd be wasting his time, which is valuable, and better spent elsewhere, like on PP and RA, and on (realistic) MLE targets, like the Millers, JJ Reddick, etc.

I think Danny can walk and chew gum at the same time....

Yeah lets not act like Danny is Mark Blount here

Okay, I don't want to get in a back and forth on this, so I will offer my last thought on the matter, then let it go.

(1) yes, I am sure Ainge can multitask.
(2) however, we have seen and heard time and again how important it is to identify and woo your FA targets early.  Love him or hate him, one of the big reasons Sheed came to Boston is that he was relentlessly pursued from the start of FA last summer. 
(3) hence, I'd argue it is important that Ainge identify who he really wants to target in FA, and relentlessly pursue that guy.  from reports, it sounds like it is either Brad Miller or JJ Reddick. 
(4) there are only so many hours in the day.  as an economist, we like to say that "there are tradeoffs".  the tradeoff to making calls to LBJ, DWade, Joe Johnson, Dirk, etc is that it is time not spent calling Brad Miller, his mom, his agent, his HS coach, etc, telling them all how great Boston is. 
(5) to make the analogy clear, it is not "walking and chewing gum" it is "talking on two phones at the same time".  all you do is tick off both parties.  so you don't do it, you call and talk with one person at a time.  that means you have to order who you are going to call, and probably forego talking to some people.

[Fan from VT]

Well he should be. He should be asking agents if anyone wants to sign a max deal to play with Rondo,KG,Perk,Baby,Bradley. Really the only guy that makes sense there is Lebron, because Johnson is NOT worth max money and that roster would be too thin around someone like him, and said roster is thick at 4/5, so Amare/Bosh aren't the best choices, unless Ainge knows someone wants KG for several good parts.

But yeah, Ainge should be reminding Lebron of how good Rondo was in their series, and that they could be a powerful 1-2 punch and that they'll do whatever they can to move Perk/Baby expiring deals for a more balanced and healthy roster this year, get a sense of playing together and a legit run with the defense that team could play, then try to deal KG's expiring the next year and use the full MLE, etc.

Extremely unlikely, but he could at least throw it out there.


Here's another scenario:
-Get in Bosh and Lebron's ear that they can play together in Boston and be part of that basketball tradition, the LA rivalry, etc.
-Meet with Colangelo in Toronto. Have Bosh tell him he wants to end up in Boston. Remind Colangelo that his team was pretty bad last year, and has no cap space soon and is losing Bosh anyway; get a deal in place in principle of KG and Rondo for Calderon, Turkoglu, Bosh (signed at the max). Toronto gets to field a semi-competitive team with a legit young stud (rondo) and a 1-2 punch to rebuild around of Rondo and Bargnani, as well as sooner cap space as KG's deal is shorter than the combined Turkoglu/Calderon deals.
-Sign Lebron after renouncing our rights to everybody we can and having Sheed retire; then do the above trade.

Boston:
Calderon/Bradley
Hedo
James
Bosh
Perk/Baby

Use the MLE next year and go after all vet mins possible.

[Fan from VT]

He is absolutely talking to their agents. The Cs are 15mil under the cap today if they just keep sheed's deal. So you can bet he's kicking tires to see who wants to play with rondo....

Incorrect, with Ray's and Paul's cap holds alone ($20m each), we're well over cap.

The only way we get that cap space, is if we renounce our rights to them and TA.

That's a technicality.  They could renounce them anytime they want (and they could actually unrenounce them if they wanted to as well).

In essence, the C's are 15 million under the cap right now.  But it doesn't matter, because that is not enough to sign a max guy, let alone fill a roster around them.

It IS a technicality, the Celtics do have the ability to have cap room, which is really all anybody has right now. For example, the Bulls haven't yet renounced their rights to guys like Brad Miller, so they don't technically have cap space yet. Miami hasn't yet renounced Jermaine O'Neal, so they don't technically have cap space yet. The Knicks haven't yet renounced David Lee et al. so they don't technically have cap space yet either. Celtics are in the same boat as far as "having cap space." (Granted, not as much as those teams, but they "have" it.)

However, Chris, if the Celtics renounce Pierce and Allen, they can't unrenounce them. Per Larry Coon Q. 34, the only circumstance under which a team can rescind a decision to renounce Bird rights is when the team renounces the rights in order to sign a restricted free agent, and that free agent's team matches the offer. And that situation is further limited, because you can't rescind a renouncement of rights if it takes you from below the cap to above the cap.

So let's say the Celtics renounce all their rights to open up $12-15 mil in cap space. They sign Rudy Gay to an offer sheet starting at $12 million a year. Seven days later, Memphis matches. Now, Boston is $12-15 million below the cap. They could not rescind their renouncing of the rights to Pierce and Ray because those cap holds would take Boston above the cap.

That is why no team will renounce Bird rights unless and until they physically sign a player. Even if a team comes to an agreement today with a free agent, that team won't renounce its Bird rights until a week or so from now when they are actually permitted to sign that free agent.

But it's a technicality in the sense that if Lebron called ainge and said "i want the max in boston," Ainge could immediately renounce the guys and sign him. Likewise, Ainge can be talking to Max guys saying that he has room to sign them, then renounce the players right as the FA is signing with boston.

[BballTim]

No cap space, no trade bait = no max free agents.

I think we do have trade bait when you consider Rondo's age and fairly generous contract. Last season it was reported that he tried to deal him with RA for Rip, Stuckey, and Hamilton, so why wouldn't he include him in a deal in order to get a LeBron or Wade? Ainge isn't the type that's scared to make a major move.

  Why would LeBron or Wade want to come to Boston if PP, RA and Rondo were all leaving? Rondo's our only real draw.

[ssspence]

I hope not.
He'd be wasting his time, which is valuable, and better spent elsewhere, like on PP and RA, and on (realistic) MLE targets, like the Millers, JJ Reddick, etc.

I think Danny can walk and chew gum at the same time....

Yeah lets not act like Danny is Mark Blount here

Okay, I don't want to get in a back and forth on this, so I will offer my last thought on the matter, then let it go.

(1) yes, I am sure Ainge can multitask.
(2) however, we have seen and heard time and again how important it is to identify and woo your FA targets early.  Love him or hate him, one of the big reasons Sheed came to Boston is that he was relentlessly pursued from the start of FA last summer. 
(3) hence, I'd argue it is important that Ainge identify who he really wants to target in FA, and relentlessly pursue that guy.  from reports, it sounds like it is either Brad Miller or JJ Reddick. 
(4) there are only so many hours in the day.  as an economist, we like to say that "there are tradeoffs".  the tradeoff to making calls to LBJ, DWade, Joe Johnson, Dirk, etc is that it is time not spent calling Brad Miller, his mom, his agent, his HS coach, etc, telling them all how great Boston is. 
(5) to make the analogy clear, it is not "walking and chewing gum" it is "talking on two phones at the same time".  all you do is tick off both parties.  so you don't do it, you call and talk with one person at a time.  that means you have to order who you are going to call, and probably forego talking to some people.

i agree this discussion is a bit pointless. i'm sure you've picked up a newspaper recently.... there's not a GM in the NBA who isn't currently talking into two phones at a time, figuratively speaking of course.

consider this: if the Cs were to let pierce and allen walk, then traded KG to the Mavs for dampier's non-guaranteed deal, they'd have around $30mil in cap space.

but hey -- let's concentrate on brad miller and get it done 

[Cman]

but hey -- let's concentrate on brad miller and get it done 

amen.

[jdpapa3]

In essence, the C's are 15 million under the cap right now.  But it doesn't matter, because that is not enough to sign a max guy, let alone fill a roster around them.

This conflicts with the recent proclamation that Larry Coon made. He said we could get to within 55k of the 16.6 max slot required to Lebron/Bosh/Wade.

[Chris]

In essence, the C's are 15 million under the cap right now.  But it doesn't matter, because that is not enough to sign a max guy, let alone fill a roster around them.

This conflicts with the recent proclamation that Larry Coon made. He said we could get to within 55k of the 16.6 max slot required to Lebron/Bosh/Wade.

I don't think that's true, but I am certainly not going to argue with Coon.  But either way, it is still not a max contract.  And more importantly, we really don't have what it takes to attract and put a great team around those top guys, even if we had the money.

[guava_wrench]

No cap space, no trade bait = no max free agents.

I think we do have trade bait when you consider Rondo's age and fairly generous contract. Last season it was reported that he tried to deal him with RA for Rip, Stuckey, and Hamilton, so why wouldn't he include him in a deal in order to get a LeBron or Wade? Ainge isn't the type that's scared to make a major move.

  Why would LeBron or Wade want to come to Boston if PP, RA and Rondo were all leaving? Rondo's our only real draw.

Yeah, doesn't make sense. Why would we give up Rondo anyway in a sign and trade? That is way too much to give up in a sign and trade for someone who is already a restricted free agent.

[BballTim]

In essence, the C's are 15 million under the cap right now.  But it doesn't matter, because that is not enough to sign a max guy, let alone fill a roster around them.

This conflicts with the recent proclamation that Larry Coon made. He said we could get to within 55k of the 16.6 max slot required to Lebron/Bosh/Wade.

I don't think that's true, but I am certainly not going to argue with Coon.  But either way, it is still not a max contract.  And more importantly, we really don't have what it takes to attract and put a great team around those top guys, even if we had the money.

  I think it comes down to how healthy you'd expect KG and Perk to be. I could argue that LeBron with Rondo/KG/Perk would be as likely to win a title this year as LeBron in Chicago. That situation would be better in the long term, but I doubt that's a big issue as I'd expect LeBron to have another opt-out after 2-3 years.

[BballTim]

Well he should be. He should be asking agents if anyone wants to sign a max deal to play with Rondo,KG,Perk,Baby,Bradley. Really the only guy that makes sense there is Lebron, because Johnson is NOT worth max money and that roster would be too thin around someone like him, and said roster is thick at 4/5, so Amare/Bosh aren't the best choices, unless Ainge knows someone wants KG for several good parts.

But yeah, Ainge should be reminding Lebron of how good Rondo was in their series, and that they could be a powerful 1-2 punch and that they'll do whatever they can to move Perk/Baby expiring deals for a more balanced and healthy roster this year, get a sense of playing together and a legit run with the defense that team could play, then try to deal KG's expiring the next year and use the full MLE, etc.

Extremely unlikely, but he could at least throw it out there.


Here's another scenario:
-Get in Bosh and Lebron's ear that they can play together in Boston and be part of that basketball tradition, the LA rivalry, etc.
-Meet with Colangelo in Toronto. Have Bosh tell him he wants to end up in Boston. Remind Colangelo that his team was pretty bad last year, and has no cap space soon and is losing Bosh anyway; get a deal in place in principle of KG and Rondo for Calderon, Turkoglu, Bosh (signed at the max). Toronto gets to field a semi-competitive team with a legit young stud (rondo) and a 1-2 punch to rebuild around of Rondo and Bargnani, as well as sooner cap space as KG's deal is shorter than the combined Turkoglu/Calderon deals.
-Sign Lebron after renouncing our rights to everybody we can and having Sheed retire; then do the above trade.

Boston:
Calderon/Bradley
Hedo
James
Bosh
Perk/Baby

Use the MLE next year and go after all vet mins possible.

  If Ainge not only gave Toronto Rondo for Bosh but also took Hedo and Calderon off their hands they'd put a statue of Danny outside their stadium.

[Fan from VT]

Well he should be. He should be asking agents if anyone wants to sign a max deal to play with Rondo,KG,Perk,Baby,Bradley. Really the only guy that makes sense there is Lebron, because Johnson is NOT worth max money and that roster would be too thin around someone like him, and said roster is thick at 4/5, so Amare/Bosh aren't the best choices, unless Ainge knows someone wants KG for several good parts.

But yeah, Ainge should be reminding Lebron of how good Rondo was in their series, and that they could be a powerful 1-2 punch and that they'll do whatever they can to move Perk/Baby expiring deals for a more balanced and healthy roster this year, get a sense of playing together and a legit run with the defense that team could play, then try to deal KG's expiring the next year and use the full MLE, etc.

Extremely unlikely, but he could at least throw it out there.


Here's another scenario:
-Get in Bosh and Lebron's ear that they can play together in Boston and be part of that basketball tradition, the LA rivalry, etc.
-Meet with Colangelo in Toronto. Have Bosh tell him he wants to end up in Boston. Remind Colangelo that his team was pretty bad last year, and has no cap space soon and is losing Bosh anyway; get a deal in place in principle of KG and Rondo for Calderon, Turkoglu, Bosh (signed at the max). Toronto gets to field a semi-competitive team with a legit young stud (rondo) and a 1-2 punch to rebuild around of Rondo and Bargnani, as well as sooner cap space as KG's deal is shorter than the combined Turkoglu/Calderon deals.
-Sign Lebron after renouncing our rights to everybody we can and having Sheed retire; then do the above trade.

Boston:
Calderon/Bradley
Hedo
James
Bosh
Perk/Baby

Use the MLE next year and go after all vet mins possible.

  If Ainge not only gave Toronto Rondo for Bosh but also took Hedo and Calderon off their hands they'd put a statue of Danny outside their stadium.

Good! it's settled, this is what Danny needs to do!!!

Because if Boston's core for the next 6 years is Bosh-Lebron, I'd build a statue of Danny in boston. Surround those two with great shooters like calderon and turkoglu to keep it open for them, still have perk and baby to bruise it up, perk and bradley are defenders, and James is all-defense caliber...that team competes for a title this season. then you add the MLE and another pick next year, good to go!