oden for perk: the post banner 18 discussion

[Roy Hobbs]

Of course, the injuries are a big, big concern.  However, I think that Oden is already a better all-around player than Perk.  He still has a ton to learn, but the skills are there.

Right. And yet another issue is whether we want to gamble Rondo's prime (25-30 years) on Oden learning, or we want to keep the proven building block and sign players with solid track record.

Honestly, I don't consider Perk to be a post-"big three" building block.  I see him as a good complementary piece on a championship team, but I don't think he's somebody you can really rebuild around.

Rondo is the only young guy who I think should be viewed as a lifelong Celtic.  Perk, BBD, or whoever else are all nice players, but they're expendable in the right deal.

[BudweiserCeltic]

Of course, the injuries are a big, big concern.  However, I think that Oden is already a better all-around player than Perk.  He still has a ton to learn, but the skills are there.

Right. And yet another issue is whether we want to gamble Rondo's prime (25-30 years) on Oden learning, or we want to keep the proven building block and sign players with solid track record.

Keeping Perk will probably hinder Rondo's prime years more than anything, particularly if Ainge and ownership become irresponsible in offering years and high salary to keep him. I really don't know what it will take to keep Perk, but considering the center market he should be due for a good pay day, and that alone can really discourage a good rebuilding effort.

So in all I think it's safer going after a Oden, that I think has more trade value and a much higher ceiling than Perk, or trading Perk for assets that will be useful in a rebuilding effort, else I'd might consider just letting him walk.

It all also depends on how our veterans are performing in the coming years, but in all I think the most prudent thing to do if you're worried about the future is to make a good trade using Perkins, and if you can manage to acquire players that can help us in the present even better.

In all, unless we get a bargain for Perkins, I think it will be a big mistake if you consider him a building block to pair with Rondo in a rebuilding effort later on. He's not good enough to be considered that, and his biggest value is as a role player... and at the moment, his current role for us is very valuable and we would gladly overpay him to keep him in this current role with this team. But his talent and skills, particularly for what I could assume it would take to keep him, is certainly not in our best interest for the future.

And as much as Oden, for example, is a health risk... Perkins is not the poster boy for health either. We've gotten fairly lucky with him in recent years. But he's knees, feet, and shoulders will certainly be a concern for the rest of his career.

[kozlodoev]

Of course, the injuries are a big, big concern.  However, I think that Oden is already a better all-around player than Perk.  He still has a ton to learn, but the skills are there.

Right. And yet another issue is whether we want to gamble Rondo's prime (25-30 years) on Oden learning, or we want to keep the proven building block and sign players with solid track record.

Honestly, I don't consider Perk to be a post-"big three" building block.  I see him as a good complementary piece on a championship team, but I don't think he's somebody you can really rebuild around.

Rondo is the only young guy who I think should be viewed as a lifelong Celtic.  Perk, BBD, or whoever else are all nice players, but they're expendable in the right deal.

I just don't want to get into a situation where we get a second star to go with Rondo, and then have to pay an arm and a leg for good roleplayers (e.g. Posey to the Hornets). I'd much rather have the roleplayers locked in, and then pay an arm and a leg for the star. Maybe I am just trying to do the whole thing backwards, but that's why Danny is managing the Celtics, and not I

[kozlodoev]

And as much as Oden, for example, is a health risk... Perkins is not the poster boy for health either. We've gotten fairly lucky with him in recent years. But he's knees, feet, and shoulders will certainly be a concern for the rest of his career.

Actually, Perkins _is_ a poster boy for health. Career-altering injuries for big men come from the waist down, because that's the part of the body that bears the 300 lbs night in and night out. Perkins, knock on wood, hasn't had any serious leg or foot injuries that I can recall.

Oden, on the other hand, is on his second one already. Major red flag where health is concerned.

[BudweiserCeltic]

Of course, the injuries are a big, big concern.  However, I think that Oden is already a better all-around player than Perk.  He still has a ton to learn, but the skills are there.

Right. And yet another issue is whether we want to gamble Rondo's prime (25-30 years) on Oden learning, or we want to keep the proven building block and sign players with solid track record.

Honestly, I don't consider Perk to be a post-"big three" building block.  I see him as a good complementary piece on a championship team, but I don't think he's somebody you can really rebuild around.

Rondo is the only young guy who I think should be viewed as a lifelong Celtic.  Perk, BBD, or whoever else are all nice players, but they're expendable in the right deal.

I just don't want to get into a situation where we get a second star to go with Rondo, and then have to pay an arm and a leg for good roleplayers (e.g. Posey to the Hornets). I'd much rather have the roleplayers locked in, and then pay an arm and a leg for the star. Maybe I am just trying to do the whole thing backwards, but that's why Danny is managing the Celtics, and not I

Problem is that if you have role players locked in, you will probably don't have the salary room to look for the star players.

So what you do is get the right star guys that will manage to compete in the playoffs, and surround them with the right complementary players.

[arctic 3.0]

also, he's do for a pay raise (maybe around 7-8 million) and i wouldnt want to overpay perk just on the fact that he's a good defender.

Where do people get this stuff from that Perk is going to get a big pay raise? There's no way his market value is going to be 7-8 million. What other teams are going to make big offers for an undersized center that can't do anything but play defense? Let's be honest, Perk isn't a starter on any playoff team other than the Cs. I can't imagine he'll be getting payed significantly more than his current contract. If he does, than we should probably let him walk. I love him but 7-8 million is way overpaying for the guy.

he would definatly start in atlanta, miami,charlotte he may start for denver, dallas, san antonio, okc and chicago, next to noah.

Of course, the injuries are a big, big concern.  However, I think that Oden is already a better all-around player than Perk.  He still has a ton to learn, but the skills are there.

Right. And yet another issue is whether we want to gamble Rondo's prime (25-30 years) on Oden learning, or we want to keep the proven building block and sign players with solid track record.

good point

[LarBrd33]

Boston does this trade.  Portland can't.

[federico]

I was thinking to this trade a few days ago, and for me there is a big problem: Portland would not accept the trade because, even if Oden's health is a question for the furure, his potential is much more than Perk's. And more than this, as Celtics Fans we use overrate Perkins, but his defense is not so good as we use to think, and Howard's stats in the series explain this pretty well (except for game 1, when however Howard was guarding himself...); and on the offensive end Perk lives only only on PGA+Rondo's shoulders, that capture all the attention of the other defense. Portland knows this, and even if Perk would fit well in their system and especially with Aldridge, they are not going to trade him for a role player.

[GreenFaith1819]

Huh?

[CoachBo]

Of course, the injuries are a big, big concern.  However, I think that Oden is already a better all-around player than Perk.  He still has a ton to learn, but the skills are there.

Right. And yet another issue is whether we want to gamble Rondo's prime (25-30 years) on Oden learning, or we want to keep the proven building block and sign players with solid track record.

Honestly, I don't consider Perk to be a post-"big three" building block.  I see him as a good complementary piece on a championship team, but I don't think he's somebody you can really rebuild around.

Rondo is the only young guy who I think should be viewed as a lifelong Celtic.  Perk, BBD, or whoever else are all nice players, but they're expendable in the right deal.

Totally agree, and that's why I suspect we can be certain Perkins will be shopped in the off-season. There are a bunch of clubs in need of a defensive 5 - Miami and OKC are just two that come to mind.

Not saying he will be traded, or should be given away.

But I definitely think you shop him.

[Brendan]

I would do it. I think you could sign an MLE center and get most of what you get out of Perk, and have the chance for crazy upside. It's comparable to trading an established guy like Maxwell for Walton - except both of those guys were older. It's not like Perkins is injury free.

Why POR might do it:

- If they feel they are on the verge of contending and cannot dedicate the time to developing Oden. They get a great backup center or a solid starter depending on what lineup you use. You need four big men anyways. They can afford to overpay somewhat for Perk's extension, and it's not like Camby is long term there. Perk potentially matches up with an offense revolving around Aldridge, Miller, and Roy.

- If we included a draft pick and got back one of their extra wings. It gives them cover on the Oden pick. Everytime anyone in POR sees Oden, they will think Durant forever. To get someone who might be a better contributor for contention next year, plus some future talent might work.

[snively]

There's just no way Portland would do the trade.  Oden is a few less fouls per game away from being a bigger Dwight Howard.  Even with the huge injury concerns you don't give him up for a Dale Davis guy like Perk.

OKC or Utah are the better targets for a guy like Perk.  They've both come off series where they've been exposed for lack of defensive beef up front and both have some disposable young talent/draft picks to offer. 

Perk/Baby/#19 for Okur/#9 is a trade I think both teams should consider.  Draft Ed Davis, Ekpe Udoh or Aminu at the 9 spot and groom one of them as a long-term replacement at the 4.  Sacrifice some defense in the starting line-up to gain Okur's devastating pick and pop game.  Utah would gain their coveted defensive beef, some frontcourt depth and a replacement pick.

[MBz]

There's just no way Portland would do the trade.  Oden is a few less fouls per game away from being a bigger Dwight Howard.  Even with the huge injury concerns you don't give him up for a Dale Davis guy like Perk.

OKC or Utah are the better targets for a guy like Perk.  They've both come off series where they've been exposed for lack of defensive beef up front and both have some disposable young talent/draft picks to offer. 

Perk/Baby/#19 for Okur/#9 is a trade I think both teams should consider.  Draft Ed Davis, Ekpe Udoh or Aminu at the 9 spot and groom one of them as a long-term replacement at the 4.  Sacrifice some defense in the starting line-up to gain Okur's devastating pick and pop game.  Utah would gain their coveted defensive beef, some frontcourt depth and a replacement pick.

I actually like the idea of Perk/Baby/#19 for Okur and #9.  I would rather draft Aldrich though.  I think he's ready defensively right now and will be able to guard 4s and 5s.

[GreenFaith1819]

So - would we still trade or shop Perk if..say:

He averaged 12-14 pts, 12+ rebounds, and 3 blocks?

This is what he averaged, during the 2008-09 playoff run. Sure he was not polished then - and in some cases may have taken a step back since then, offensively, but IMO this was due to the addition of Sheed this year and then KG rounding back into form, taking shots from him.

Perk averaged that amount earlier this year..even showing Some offensive improvement..there was some Sick move he did in a CHA game this year..he was about 10 feet from the basket in that game, and actually dribbled and drove to the hoop--really pretty move..had Never seen it out of him before. I thought he traveled, but looking at the replays, it was legit.

The potential is there Offensively..he's only 25? He needs some serious offensive work - passing the ball...keeping the ball high, instead of bringing it down...

The man has worked this hard on his role - Defense. I see no reason why he couldn't develop into someone who we could eventually run the offense through. I believe in him.

On a somewhat related note - JJ Redick. Man was as one dimensional as they came, but he has certainly worked on his game and became a true threat. The ORL series showed me a Redick that we had to pay attention to.

I think Perk can develop into that.

Paying him? Well, maybe the 8-10 mil I suggested in a previous thread was a bit, but certainly 6-8 mil? Can we do this and still bring in another Top-Flight player? This is the side of the NBA I don't like, because I'd hate to see Perk get low-balled and then go somewhere else and become better in a different system.

I've seen that happen too much with Boston over the last few years (Chauncey, Joe Johnson).

I can certainly see how this trade looks on paper - I can't blame those who would do it. But Man I'd be too scared for Oden's Health.

If I could look into a Crystal Ball and see if Oden stayed healthy, he could develop into a True Monster.....maybe better than Dwight? He's a true 7 footer..strong as an Oak....has some moves down low..he is a foul-magnet right now, but that can be worked on, I suppose.

He needs a Mean Streak..like Perk, though.

Does anyone have any footage or references to how Oden played against Dwight? Bogut? Kaman? Especially Dwight? Did he slow these guys down? Just curious. Perk had some trouble with Bogut, Kaman, and even Dwight seemed to have a few good games against us, but not many.

[kozlodoev]

I actually like the idea of Perk/Baby/#19 for Okur and #9.  I would rather draft Aldrich though.  I think he's ready defensively right now and will be able to guard 4s and 5s.

We're in the East. Teams in the East see Dwight Howard 4 times a year, and have to go through him in the playoffs. I don't think having Okur as your starting center helps with that cause.