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Re: If Pierce wins another Finals MVP...
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2010, 12:07:25 PM »

Offline rondohondo

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Here's a question:  Whose performance and ultimate result in these Finals will have a bigger effect on their legacy with their respective franchise - Kobe or Pierce?

It's got to be Kobe.  Pierce is where he is, I don't know how many rings it would take to push him into that top 5 Category (Hondo, Cousy, Bird, Russell, whomever is the fifth).  Pierce is beloved and won a championship after years of playing for a team that was mediocre or just awful.

Meanwhile Kobe has always had a good team.  If Kobe can will his team to win it push him to a level of West and Magic, and I think past Kareem (how many championships did he have).  On a whole other level people will have to seriously start looking at him in the Jordan level.

kobe couldnt even make it out of the first round without shaq or gasol on his team(caron butler and odom were there so he had help) . He is a great player , but he is not MJ

I always say this when that is brought up, but Jordan didn't get out of the first round until he had Pippen (1987) and Horace Grant (1987), AND Bill Cartwright (1988).  In his first two playoff appearances he got swept out of the first round.

True, but I still think MJ is just the more clutch winner. Kobe has already lost 2 nba finals( # 3 soon?) MJ went 3 peat, took 2 years off , and the went 3peat again. Undefeated when it matters most .  Kobe always wants to be the hero at the end of games ( example: Ron artests game winning rebound , Kobe just jacked up a hero 3 going out of bounds, I know there wasn't much time left but could have gone towards the hoop) MJ kicks it out to paxon or steve kerr to get the best shot.


Re: If Pierce wins another Finals MVP...
« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2010, 01:13:03 PM »

Offline guava_wrench

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Here's a question:  Whose performance and ultimate result in these Finals will have a bigger effect on their legacy with their respective franchise - Kobe or Pierce?

It's got to be Kobe.  Pierce is where he is, I don't know how many rings it would take to push him into that top 5 Category (Hondo, Cousy, Bird, Russell, whomever is the fifth).  Pierce is beloved and won a championship after years of playing for a team that was mediocre or just awful.

Meanwhile Kobe has always had a good team.  If Kobe can will his team to win it push him to a level of West and Magic, and I think past Kareem (how many championships did he have).  On a whole other level people will have to seriously start looking at him in the Jordan level.

kobe couldnt even make it out of the first round without shaq or gasol on his team(caron butler and odom were there so he had help) . He is a great player , but he is not MJ

I always say this when that is brought up, but Jordan didn't get out of the first round until he had Pippen (1987) and Horace Grant (1987), AND Bill Cartwright (1988).  In his first two playoff appearances he got swept out of the first round.

True, but I still think MJ is just the more clutch winner. Kobe has already lost 2 nba finals( # 3 soon?) MJ went 3 peat, took 2 years off , and the went 3peat again. Undefeated when it matters most .  Kobe always wants to be the hero at the end of games ( example: Ron artests game winning rebound , Kobe just jacked up a hero 3 going out of bounds, I know there wasn't much time left but could have gone towards the hoop) MJ kicks it out to paxon or steve kerr to get the best shot.


But Jordan wasn't a Laker, and the earlier comments were comparing him to past Lakers.

Re: If Pierce wins another Finals MVP...
« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2010, 01:25:41 PM »

Offline rondohondo

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Here's a question:  Whose performance and ultimate result in these Finals will have a bigger effect on their legacy with their respective franchise - Kobe or Pierce?

It's got to be Kobe.  Pierce is where he is, I don't know how many rings it would take to push him into that top 5 Category (Hondo, Cousy, Bird, Russell, whomever is the fifth).  Pierce is beloved and won a championship after years of playing for a team that was mediocre or just awful.

Meanwhile Kobe has always had a good team.  If Kobe can will his team to win it push him to a level of West and Magic, and I think past Kareem (how many championships did he have).  On a whole other level people will have to seriously start looking at him in the Jordan level.

kobe couldnt even make it out of the first round without shaq or gasol on his team(caron butler and odom were there so he had help) . He is a great player , but he is not MJ

I always say this when that is brought up, but Jordan didn't get out of the first round until he had Pippen (1987) and Horace Grant (1987), AND Bill Cartwright (1988).  In his first two playoff appearances he got swept out of the first round.

True, but I still think MJ is just the more clutch winner. Kobe has already lost 2 nba finals( # 3 soon?) MJ went 3 peat, took 2 years off , and the went 3peat again. Undefeated when it matters most .  Kobe always wants to be the hero at the end of games ( example: Ron artests game winning rebound , Kobe just jacked up a hero 3 going out of bounds, I know there wasn't much time left but could have gone towards the hoop) MJ kicks it out to paxon or steve kerr to get the best shot.


But Jordan wasn't a Laker, and the earlier comments were comparing him to past Lakers.

He also said " On a whole other level people will have to seriously start looking at him(kobe) in the Jordan level"

Re: If Pierce wins another Finals MVP...
« Reply #18 on: May 30, 2010, 01:31:52 PM »

Offline Brendan

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I don't think there's much Pierce could ever do at this point in his career to get any higher than 5th but, in all honesty, I don't think he'll ever get higher than 7th in my eyes.

Russell, Bird, Cousy, Havlicek are players he will never unseat so he has a chance at top 5.

In my eyes he may never surpass Cowens, McHale and Jones.

Now, I never saw Russell, Cousy or Jones play but being a Celtic fan, to me, meant getting to know the history of the team and I have read extensively about the team's history and so have a full appreciation for those three. I just don't see that their legacy's should be forgotten because the new guy that put up a ton of stats on bad teams got a bunch of younger fans to be Celtic fans.

Read up on your team history folks. Appreciate what those banners mean and who put them up there and what they had to persevere through to get them.
Cowens - two banners
McHale - one banner as a starter, two as a reserve
Sam Jones - third or fourth best player on a lot of championship teams

So I don't see how from a banner perspective Pierce's hypothetical two wouldn't be on par.

Re: If Pierce wins another Finals MVP...
« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2010, 02:07:01 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Here's a question:  Whose performance and ultimate result in these Finals will have a bigger effect on their legacy with their respective franchise - Kobe or Pierce?

It's got to be Kobe.  Pierce is where he is, I don't know how many rings it would take to push him into that top 5 Category (Hondo, Cousy, Bird, Russell, whomever is the fifth).  Pierce is beloved and won a championship after years of playing for a team that was mediocre or just awful.

Meanwhile Kobe has always had a good team.  If Kobe can will his team to win it push him to a level of West and Magic, and I think past Kareem (how many championships did he have).  On a whole other level people will have to seriously start looking at him in the Jordan level.

  People looked at Kobe at the Jordan level 2 years ago. He didn't compare that well.

Re: If Pierce wins another Finals MVP...
« Reply #20 on: May 30, 2010, 02:23:15 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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I don't think there's much Pierce could ever do at this point in his career to get any higher than 5th but, in all honesty, I don't think he'll ever get higher than 7th in my eyes.

Russell, Bird, Cousy, Havlicek are players he will never unseat so he has a chance at top 5.

In my eyes he may never surpass Cowens, McHale and Jones.

Now, I never saw Russell, Cousy or Jones play but being a Celtic fan, to me, meant getting to know the history of the team and I have read extensively about the team's history and so have a full appreciation for those three. I just don't see that their legacy's should be forgotten because the new guy that put up a ton of stats on bad teams got a bunch of younger fans to be Celtic fans.

Read up on your team history folks. Appreciate what those banners mean and who put them up there and what they had to persevere through to get them.
Cowens - two banners
McHale - one banner as a starter, two as a reserve
Sam Jones - third or fourth best player on a lot of championship teams

So I don't see how from a banner perspective Pierce's hypothetical two wouldn't be on par.

I am not trying top say that winning banners is the prerequisite for going higher on the list. I am saying those banners are there because of a lot of great Celtics and because the younger generation comes in and loves their players, they shouldn't forget or put their favorites ahead of others that might be more deserving simply because they are familiar with them.

Cowens was an MVP, a two time champion, a Rookie of the Year and one of the greatest undersized defensive centers ever to play the game. He guarded guys like Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Artis Gilmore and Bob Lanier and Elmore Smith and Bill Walton and Moses Malone, men much bigger than him and shut them down. He is also one of only five players in the history of the NBA to lead his team in all five major statistical categories(points, rebounds, assists, steals and blocks) in one year. Sorry, I watched him play. He was a better player than Pierce will ever be.

McHale is also one of the greatest defensive PFs in the history of the game. Let's not forget that in the early 80's he was also the best Sixth Man in the NBA. During his peak, McHale was unrivaled on the court given his defensive presence and almost unstoppable low post presence. He was probably after Bird and Magic the best player in the league for a couple of years. Pierce never reached that height of greatness and never will.

Sam Jones was a pioneer at the shooting guard position. He was one of the first "big" SGs that would also crash the boards and finish at the basket. His game and style of play transform the position of shooting guard. Add to that that he was one of the most deadly shooters in the NBA at his time and also one of the most clutch players in NBA history and one can see that he was a lot more than just the "3rd or 4th player best player on a lot of championship teams".

Re: If Pierce wins another Finals MVP...
« Reply #21 on: May 30, 2010, 02:35:13 PM »

Offline LB3533

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If Paul wins another title (not even another Finals MVP) he will be ranked 2nd after Russell in my book.

Sure Bird has 3 titles, 1 more than the 2 Paul would have if the Celtics can win it all this year, but...Paul would have been on a team where they not only did not lose the Finals to a Laker team, but beaten the Lakers twice in the Finals.

Bird and the 80's Big 3 not only lost in the Finals, but lost to the Lakers.....twice.

Celtics are 17-3 in NBA Finals matchups. 2 of those 3 Finals losses belong to Bird by the hands of the Lakers.

That's a pretty big thumbs down for me.

Re: If Pierce wins another Finals MVP...
« Reply #22 on: May 30, 2010, 02:39:06 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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If Paul wins another title (not even another Finals MVP) he will be ranked 2nd after Russell in my book.

Sure Bird has 3 titles, 1 more than the 2 Paul would have if the Celtics can win it all this year, but...Paul would have been on a team where they not only did not lose the Finals to a Laker team, but beaten the Lakers twice in the Finals.

Bird and the 80's Big 3 not only lost in the Finals, but lost to the Lakers.....twice.

Celtics are 17-3 in NBA Finals matchups. 2 of those 3 Finals losses belong to Bird by the hands of the Lakers.

That's a pretty big thumbs down for me.
Wow. Now this is a head scratcher.

Re: If Pierce wins another Finals MVP...
« Reply #23 on: May 30, 2010, 02:59:45 PM »

Offline Kane3387

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Here's a question:  Whose performance and ultimate result in these Finals will have a bigger effect on their legacy with their respective franchise - Kobe or Pierce?

It's got to be Kobe.  Pierce is where he is, I don't know how many rings it would take to push him into that top 5 Category (Hondo, Cousy, Bird, Russell, whomever is the fifth).  Pierce is beloved and won a championship after years of playing for a team that was mediocre or just awful.

Meanwhile Kobe has always had a good team.  If Kobe can will his team to win it push him to a level of West and Magic, and I think past Kareem (how many championships did he have).  On a whole other level people will have to seriously start looking at him in the Jordan level.

kobe couldnt even make it out of the first round without shaq or gasol on his team(caron butler and odom were there so he had help) . He is a great player , but he is not MJ

I always say this when that is brought up, but Jordan didn't get out of the first round until he had Pippen (1987) and Horace Grant (1987), AND Bill Cartwright (1988).  In his first two playoff appearances he got swept out of the first round.

I always say this when a statement like this is made, Jordan played against and lost to incredible talent. The 86 Celtics team was arguable the greatest ever. Even Bird said something along the lines of God was wearing in basketball shoes that night.

Kobe might not have been swept but he allowed his team to blow a 3-1 series lead to an inferior team, which match up wise Phoenix was because Stoudemire was out with teh knee. also Jordan never let his teams collapse in the finals like Kobe did in 2004 and 2008. Also when you look at the individual accomplishments it is not even close. Jordan destroys Kobe in Finals MVPs, Defensive Player of the Years, Scoring Titles, Season MVPs, etc.

In my opinion Kobe needs this championship to honestly be considered the best Laker ever. Magic has played in more finals and won more finals, has more finals and Season MVPs, and most importantly has beaten the Celtics in the Finals. Something both Kobe and West failed at thus far.


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Re: If Pierce wins another Finals MVP...
« Reply #24 on: May 30, 2010, 04:41:56 PM »

Offline ManUp

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Career wise Pierce is probably top 10 behind guys like Russell, Bird, Cousy, Havlicek, Mchale, etc. But if I was starting a team today and I went down the list of great Celtics to put on my team there are probably only 2 or 3 guys I'd take before Pierce. I think if Pierce had gotten the opportunity to compete earlier he'd have more big moments and fans would have a much greater appreciation for him.

Re: If Pierce wins another Finals MVP...
« Reply #25 on: May 30, 2010, 05:14:29 PM »

Offline FallGuy

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Here's a question:  Whose performance and ultimate result in these Finals will have a bigger effect on their legacy with their respective franchise - Kobe or Pierce?

It's got to be Kobe.  Pierce is where he is, I don't know how many rings it would take to push him into that top 5 Category (Hondo, Cousy, Bird, Russell, whomever is the fifth).  Pierce is beloved and won a championship after years of playing for a team that was mediocre or just awful.

Meanwhile Kobe has always had a good team.  If Kobe can will his team to win it push him to a level of West and Magic, and I think past Kareem (how many championships did he have).  On a whole other level people will have to seriously start looking at him in the Jordan level.

  People looked at Kobe at the Jordan level 2 years ago. He didn't compare that well.

He compares better now. Even more so if he wins another title.

Kobe has been lights out against Phoenix.

Anyway, I'd say this is more about his reputation.

The big three would need a third title to really shift perception, IMO.

Re: If Pierce wins another Finals MVP...
« Reply #26 on: May 30, 2010, 05:18:31 PM »

Offline Jon

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I'm more interested where this team ranks among the dynasties if they win another title.  With one more title they match the '70s team and are only 1 short of Bird's C's in a lot less time. 

Re: If Pierce wins another Finals MVP...
« Reply #27 on: May 30, 2010, 05:29:58 PM »

Offline el.celta

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You may be able to win another mvp Paul Pierce finals
Although in these playoffs he has improved a lot is
Rajon Rondo, also may be a candidate

Re: If Pierce wins another Finals MVP...
« Reply #28 on: May 30, 2010, 07:14:31 PM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

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If Paul wins another title (not even another Finals MVP) he will be ranked 2nd after Russell in my book.

Sure Bird has 3 titles, 1 more than the 2 Paul would have if the Celtics can win it all this year, but...Paul would have been on a team where they not only did not lose the Finals to a Laker team, but beaten the Lakers twice in the Finals.

Bird and the 80's Big 3 not only lost in the Finals, but lost to the Lakers.....twice.

Celtics are 17-3 in NBA Finals matchups. 2 of those 3 Finals losses belong to Bird by the hands of the Lakers.

That's a pretty big thumbs down for me.
Wow. Now this is a head scratcher.

Yeah...  Should Bird be penalized that he made it to the Finals five times, losing twice to one of the best teams in history?  By this logic, Bird would have been "greater" if he'd missed the playoffs several times, so long as he never lost to the Lakers in the Finals.

I'll take the three titles, three MVPs, and nine All-NBA First Team selections, thank you.

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Re: If Pierce wins another Finals MVP...
« Reply #29 on: May 30, 2010, 08:36:49 PM »

Offline LB3533

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If Paul wins another title (not even another Finals MVP) he will be ranked 2nd after Russell in my book.

Sure Bird has 3 titles, 1 more than the 2 Paul would have if the Celtics can win it all this year, but...Paul would have been on a team where they not only did not lose the Finals to a Laker team, but beaten the Lakers twice in the Finals.

Bird and the 80's Big 3 not only lost in the Finals, but lost to the Lakers.....twice.

Celtics are 17-3 in NBA Finals matchups. 2 of those 3 Finals losses belong to Bird by the hands of the Lakers.

That's a pretty big thumbs down for me.
Wow. Now this is a head scratcher.

Yeah...  Should Bird be penalized that he made it to the Finals five times, losing twice to one of the best teams in history?  By this logic, Bird would have been "greater" if he'd missed the playoffs several times, so long as he never lost to the Lakers in the Finals.

I'll take the three titles, three MVPs, and nine All-NBA First Team selections, thank you.

No, he would have been rated even worse.

What he needed to do was win those matchups against Magic and the Lakers in the Finals.