What starting SGs are better than Ray?

[xmuscularghandix]

Kobe and Wade are clearly better.  Joe Johnson is better, and so is Brandon Roy.  

After that, there's a huge group of guys who are arguable.  Monta Ellis, Stephen Jackson, O.J. Mayo, Andre Iguodala, Vince Carter, Manu Ginobili, Jason Richardson, Jason Terry, Kevin Martin.

From that group, I'd take Ray over any of them, I think, especially for this team.

Spot on analysis, but I disagree on your conclusion. I would take OJ Mayo over Ray whether for a single season or over the next few years.

They are similar in a lot of ways on offense: 3rd or 4th option, snipers, good passers, similar efficiency.

On the defensive end, I think Mayo seperates himself.

OJ is the fourth option on a bad team, Ray is 4th on a great one. Not to mention Ray would be 1st or 2nd on OJ's team.

[Roy Hobbs]

Kobe and Wade are clearly better.  Joe Johnson is better, and so is Brandon Roy.  

After that, there's a huge group of guys who are arguable.  Monta Ellis, Stephen Jackson, O.J. Mayo, Andre Iguodala, Vince Carter, Manu Ginobili, Jason Richardson, Jason Terry, Kevin Martin.

From that group, I'd take Ray over any of them, I think, especially for this team.

Spot on analysis, but I disagree on your conclusion. I would take OJ Mayo over Ray whether for a single season or over the next few years.

They are similar in a lot of ways on offense: 3rd or 4th option, snipers, good passers, similar efficiency.

On the defensive end, I think Mayo seperates himself.

I think Ray is actually a better defender, when he plays like he currently is.  He had some rough months in the regular season (the whole team did) but he's recently ramped it up.

The difference between the two, I think, is Ray's maturity and dedication.  O.J. just doesn't seem to have the same level of professionalism that Ray has, and Ray is more of a leader in the locker room.

[greg_kite]

Kobe and Wade are clearly better.  Joe Johnson is better, and so is Brandon Roy.  

After that, there's a huge group of guys who are arguable.  Monta Ellis, Stephen Jackson, O.J. Mayo, Andre Iguodala, Vince Carter, Manu Ginobili, Jason Richardson, Jason Terry, Kevin Martin.

From that group, I'd take Ray over any of them, I think, especially for this team.

Spot on analysis, but I disagree on your conclusion. I would take OJ Mayo over Ray whether for a single season or over the next few years.

They are similar in a lot of ways on offense: 3rd or 4th option, snipers, good passers, similar efficiency.

On the defensive end, I think Mayo seperates himself.

I think Ray is actually a better defender, when he plays like he currently is.  He had some rough months in the regular season (the whole team did) but he's recently ramped it up.

The difference between the two, I think, is Ray's maturity and dedication.  O.J. just doesn't seem to have the same level of professionalism that Ray has, and Ray is more of a leader in the locker room.

Just to add to that, Ray has more of an impact on the game when he's not scoring.  He's always a threat from the outside so you have to cover him even when he's in a slump.

He's also more effecient than most other two guards.  Ray can go 5-8 and have a huge impact on a game.  Mayo seems to need the ball to be effective.

[ibby]

Kobe and Wade are clearly better.  Joe Johnson is better, and so is Brandon Roy.  

After that, there's a huge group of guys who are arguable.  Monta Ellis, Stephen Jackson, O.J. Mayo, Andre Iguodala, Vince Carter, Manu Ginobili, Jason Richardson, Jason Terry, Kevin Martin.

From that group, I'd take Ray over any of them, I think, especially for this team.

I think that Brandon Roy is also with Wade and Kobe as clearly better. After that I would take Iguodala and Martin in a straight up trade.  Since the ATL-ORL series I would take Joe Johnson if I could get another piece. Other than them I think Ray is clearly tops. 

[Roy Hobbs]

Kobe and Wade are clearly better.  Joe Johnson is better, and so is Brandon Roy.  

After that, there's a huge group of guys who are arguable.  Monta Ellis, Stephen Jackson, O.J. Mayo, Andre Iguodala, Vince Carter, Manu Ginobili, Jason Richardson, Jason Terry, Kevin Martin.

From that group, I'd take Ray over any of them, I think, especially for this team.

I think that Brandon Roy is also with Wade and Kobe as clearly better. After that I would take Iguodala and Martin in a straight up trade.  Since the ATL-ORL series I would take Joe Johnson if I could get another piece. Other than them I think Ray is clearly tops. 

The problem with Kmart is that he's injury prone and is allergic to defense.

Iguodala can't shoot, and thus wouldn't fit in nearly as well with the Celtics.  There are also some questions about his ego and whether he'd be willing to take a subservient role.

[Mr October]

This is a tough question.... Ray is such a perfect fit on this team.

I still can't believe all the trade ray chatter from a few months ago. The guy is amazing - especially as a 4th option on this team. My goodness he opens the game up for everyone.

I'm going to say Kobe, Wade, Roy, Johnson are better. Everyone else is too close to definitively make a call on.

[lovely_20]

This is a tough question.... Ray is such a perfect fit on this team.

I still can't believe all the trade ray chatter from a few months ago. The guy is amazing - especially as a 4th option on this team. My goodness he opens the game up for everyone.

I'm going to say Kobe, Wade, Roy, Johnson are better. Everyone else is too close to definitively make a call on.

I agree 100%.  Although I think I would prefer to have Ray on my team.

[Jon]

I think a lot of people have some pretty accurate info above me.  I just think it bears mentioning that Ray is simply a great fit for this team.  A lot of the guys on that list need the ball in their hands way too much ever fit in here where the ball is shared so much.  Part of the beauty of Ray is that not only can he score a ton on weakside kickouts, etc., he can also score a ton only touching the ball for a second or two in a possession.  Having someone like Iverson sit their and dribble the ball for 18 seconds, no matter how good that person is, definitely would've fit on this team.

[Edgar]

Seems like only 4
Kobe, Wade, Joe and Roy are clear to all.

[kg is king]

For the sake of fitting in with the Celtics, I'd pick Ray over Mayo. But if I were to do a direct player comparison, Mayo will top Ray.

Mayo is younger, quicker, more explosive, and has more offensive talents. Ray is definitely a better shooter but Mayo is not bad at that department himself. I think he shot better than 85% from the FT line, 38% from three and around 45% FG percentage. Those are all very good numbers. Not to mention he has hops and can slash.

[LB3533]

Is it fair to say that Ray Allen (like any other Celtic) can play defense better on the Celtics than on (virtually) any other team?

What I mean by this is that on the Celtics there is the belief that your teammates will "have your back" so you trust that each of your teammates will be where they are supposed to be.

That kind of belief allows each individual player to focus more on their individual assignment.

If it was any other team, is that belief/trust in your teammates still there or as strong of a belief/trust present?

Could Ray Allen play better defense (or as well) on the Grizzlies than he has on the Celtics?

Could Mayo play better defense if he played on the Celtics? (Could Mayo understand the Celtics' defensive playbook?)

[Michael Anthony]

Kobe and Wade are clearly better.  Joe Johnson is better, and so is Brandon Roy.  

After that, there's a huge group of guys who are arguable.  Monta Ellis, Stephen Jackson, O.J. Mayo, Andre Iguodala, Vince Carter, Manu Ginobili, Jason Richardson, Jason Terry, Kevin Martin.

From that group, I'd take Ray over any of them, I think, especially for this team.

Spot on analysis, but I disagree on your conclusion. I would take OJ Mayo over Ray whether for a single season or over the next few years.

They are similar in a lot of ways on offense: 3rd or 4th option, snipers, good passers, similar efficiency.

On the defensive end, I think Mayo seperates himself.

I think Ray is actually a better defender, when he plays like he currently is.  He had some rough months in the regular season (the whole team did) but he's recently ramped it up.

The difference between the two, I think, is Ray's maturity and dedication.  O.J. just doesn't seem to have the same level of professionalism that Ray has, and Ray is more of a leader in the locker room.

Just to add to that, Ray has more of an impact on the game when he's not scoring.  He's always a threat from the outside so you have to cover him even when he's in a slump.

He's also more effecient than most other two guards.  Ray can go 5-8 and have a huge impact on a game.  Mayo seems to need the ball to be effective.

Both of you make strong and accurate points in favor of Ray - maturity, leadership and efficiency - but I am not sure I agree with your Mayo analysis.

The perception with Mayo, partly stemming from one incident at the end of his senior year in high school, is that he immature and needs the ball. In two seasons in the league he has proved anything but - no complaints about Memphis, no complaints about his role as the third/fourth option and no trouble with the law. Conley is a mediocre point, and Gay/Randolph are one-on-one players, forcing Mayo to play off the ball almost all the time in a less than ideal situation. Put him on this team and his efficiency skyrockets.

Mayo is at the point of inflexion where his athletic advantage is beginning to overcome his savy disadvantage compared to Ray. He is unlikely to achieve as much in his career as Ray, but I thik he is better now. However, I could be convinced that it is still a year away.

LB 3533 pretty much summed up Ray's defense vs Mayo's defense - it is a product of team and system as much as anything else. Ray was percieved to be a sieve in Seattle, but he is considered a solid defender in Boston.

[Who]

Mayo is a mediocre player in non-scoring areas relative to his position (defense, rebounding, passing) and is a good go-to scorer but not efficient (55% TS%) or prolific enough (18ppg) to be counted on as anything more than a third option.

A solid player but nothing special.