Reasonable contracts for Allen and Allen?

[Mr October]

I want both Allens to come back - yet certainly the Celtics should explore sign and trades etc.

If they are resigned, the key for Ray is to keep it at 2 years. $20/2 seams like a fair market value. I can't imagine anyone out there going longer or for more money. Ray is a fantastic complimentary starter, yet not an all star anymore.

Tony should be signed only to an amount that is trade-able down the road (or also kept to 2 years). Something like: $9/3 or $6/2

Tony is what he is, a limited skill energy 2 guard on the bench.

[Ed Teach]

I suspect that Ray may want a player option 3rd year. 
For the Celtics they probably would prefer to go for a 2 year deal.  But Ray Allen was an all-star last year and should have been one this year.  He is far from done and this may be his last contract before he becomes a vet min type player.  That 3rd year may be come a big deal, ala Posey in 2008.

Since I am not ready to break up this team, I hope that we don't play hard ball this time around.

[action781]

Ray Allen is worth around $6 million. The Celtics should be willing to overpay him to keep him to a two year contract when they try to re-sign him.

Tony Allen's pay depends on what type of role he is being asked to fill. He is worth $4 million or so per annum if he was a starting two guard playing around 30 minutes a night. About $3 million as a sixth or seventh man who plays 20 minutes a night. Or about $1.5 to $2 million as a secondary wing off the bench.

Everybody on this blog is absolutely undervaluing our players.  Ray is worth around $6 million???  Find me one player in the NBA, not on a rookie contract, that is a better player than Ray and makes $6M or less per year.  I realize that he's getting older, but he can still clearly perform in the present.  No way he is only worth $6M this year and next.  Beyond that, OK, but he's not thinking that, he's thinking now.

I say that the 2 of them are critical pieces to our short-term picture.  Offer the 2 men what they deserve and what they will accept early before signings could get ugly.

Ray Allen:
Year 1:  $9M
Year 2:  $8.19M
Year 3:  $7.44M (team option)

Tony Allen:
Year 1:  $3.5M
Year 2:  $3.85M
Year 3:  $4.24M (team option possibly?)
Year 4:  $4.66M (player option?)

Tony simply isn't good enough to command the full MLE from anyone, but he and Rondo have shown to play so well together in the playoffs that I think its worthwhile to pay him this kind of money.  Especially where he's young and can give Ray and PP a lot of rest.  I argue that you could do a lot worse with your 6th/7th man.

I say then sign Sheldon and Finley to vet. minimum contracts (Does anyone think they'll command more on the open market?)  Then we sign our 2 rookies and will have 12 players under contract for around $80M.  It's a lot, but then we can easily fill out our roster, even throw out the MLE if there's a player really worth of it out there, and still be spending around the $86M we spent this past season.  If we can buy draft picks on the cheap, do it and that's a very affordable way to fill out the roster while getting some good investment.

That is all considering that Paul Pierce does not opt out.  If he opts out and re-signs, then we could be in an even better financial shape.

[xmuscularghandix]

Ray Allen is worth around $6 million. The Celtics should be willing to overpay him to keep him to a two year contract when they try to re-sign him.

Tony Allen's pay depends on what type of role he is being asked to fill. He is worth $4 million or so per annum if he was a starting two guard playing around 30 minutes a night. About $3 million as a sixth or seventh man who plays 20 minutes a night. Or about $1.5 to $2 million as a secondary wing off the bench.

Everybody on this blog is absolutely undervaluing our players.  Ray is worth around $6 million???  Find me one player in the NBA, not on a rookie contract, that is a better player than Ray and makes $6M or less per year.  I realize that he's getting older, but he can still clearly perform in the present.  No way he is only worth $6M this year and next.  Beyond that, OK, but he's not thinking that, he's thinking now.

I say that the 2 of them are critical pieces to our short-term picture.  Offer the 2 men what they deserve and what they will accept early before signings could get ugly.

Ray Allen:
Year 1:  $9M
Year 2:  $8.19M
Year 3:  $7.44M (team option)

Tony Allen:
Year 1:  $3.5M
Year 2:  $3.85M
Year 3:  $4.24M (team option possibly?)
Year 4:  $4.66M (player option?)

Tony simply isn't good enough to command the full MLE from anyone, but he and Rondo have shown to play so well together in the playoffs that I think its worthwhile to pay him this kind of money.  Especially where he's young and can give Ray and PP a lot of rest.  I argue that you could do a lot worse with your 6th/7th man.

I say then sign Sheldon and Finley to vet. minimum contracts (Does anyone think they'll command more on the open market?)  Then we sign our 2 rookies and will have 12 players under contract for around $80M.  It's a lot, but then we can easily fill out our roster, even throw out the MLE if there's a player really worth of it out there, and still be spending around the $86M we spent this past season.  If we can buy draft picks on the cheap, do it and that's a very affordable way to fill out the roster while getting some good investment.

That is all considering that Paul Pierce does not opt out.  If he opts out and re-signs, then we could be in an even better financial shape.

I say yes to everything except the Shelden thing. I definitely think we can find someone better than him to be our 5th big.

[Mr October]

I suspect that Ray may want a player option 3rd year. 
For the Celtics they probably would prefer to go for a 2 year deal.  But Ray Allen was an all-star last year and should have been one this year.  He is far from done and this may be his last contract before he becomes a vet min type player.  That 3rd year may be come a big deal, ala Posey in 2008.

Since I am not ready to break up this team, I hope that we don't play hard ball this time around.

Yeah, nailing down Ray's worth is really hard. He doesn't bring much less to the table than when he first got here and was an all star.

Yet his age says he should slip any day now. The only evidence we've seen of him slipping is that the outside shot can go colder for longer than it used to. He's still the most dangerous 3-baller in the game though.

Yeah if it comes down to him walking or giving the 3rd year... I'd give it to him. I want to see this team come back next year. They are absolutely still contenders and just need some minor retooling.

[Ed Teach]

October,
I agree that it is difficult to determine Ray's market value due to his age.  Everyone suspects that he has to start showing his age soon.  But Sheed was older last year when he signed and he got a 3 year deal, and we had already seen signs of Sheed's sliping before the Celtics signed him.

I think it is going to take a little more to wrap up Ray Allen this off-season than people think.  I hope I am wrong, because it is my dream that Sugar Ray retires a Celtic.  To me even though he didn't start in Boston, He is a Celtic to me.  He just fits.

[LooseCannon]

Ray Allen's market value is going to be determined by who has cap space once the top tier free agents are signed.  Imagine that the top names choose to avoid the Knicks and Nets and Ray Allen is one of the top names left.  Ray Allen's market value would be determined by how much New York and New Jersey are willing to overpay on a three-year contract to get a name player.  One scenario I envision is Miami sliding Dwayne Wade over to point guard and going after Ray Allen as a shooter to complement Wade.  It sounds like a smart thing for the Heat to try.

If the teams with cap space use that space up in signing the premium free agents, then Ray Allen may not be able to get more than the MLE.  One thing Ainge can do is tell Ray Allen that he will give him a three-year deal at much more than the MLE if he signs quickly and doesn't test the market.  On the other hand, Ainge can play hardball, hope that no one is in a position to offer RA more than the MLE, and try to offer half a million more per year.  If Ainge wants to re-sign Ray Allen, which path do you want him to take?

I am willing to give Ray Allen a third year because I would like to keep the Big Three+Rondo together through the end of KG's contract (and see Ray Allen break Reggie Miller's record while wearing a Celtics uniform) and I think that the last year on such a contract will turn Ray Allen into a valuable trade asset.  Post-Big Three, the next Boston championship contender will be built through draft picks and trades, not free agency.

[More Banners]

ONE wildcard this offseason for guys like Ray will be the Knicks. 

Seriously, who wants to go to the Knicks?  They can offer 2 max deals, but have a lot of spots to fill.  They won't be able to get a max player at first without a roster to attract them, and signing a player like Ray might be necessary to lure a player like...anyone max worthy.  They'll offer Ray a 5-year guaranteed deal starting around 8 million, forcing the C's to pay 12 mil/year for a 2-3 year deal (3rd partially guaranteed).

ANOTHER wildcard for Ray will be a team like the T-Wolves.  They desperately need a veteran leadership presence and outside shooting (to make the triangle work), and Ray provides both.  They only have $35 mil committed for next year, and $4.2 of that us unguaranteed to Ryan Gomes, who currently serves (poorly) in the "veteral leader" role for them.  Cutting or trading Gomes, adding Ray and keeping Darko isn't a bad Plan B when they strike out of big FA's.

For Tony Allen, the only wildcard is a team that thinks he can be successful in a larger role than the 15-20 minute bench role he plays now.  That team might offer him more than the $3 mil/year he's worth, or a longer deal.  This is what Houston did with Ariza, except any team that offers TA a bigger role will be very, very sorry.  His success (IMHO) is tied to his current limited role and the better overall players around him.  Expect someone to overpay, either in money or years.  Our best bet is to offer a deal with a base we're comfy with (3 mil) plus incentives (playoff bonus, finals bonus, games played bonus, assist/to bonus).  IF he keeps performing well, though, someone will overpay.  Milwaukee?  Memphis?

It will not be easy (or cheap) to keep either of them, especially on a 2-year deal...tough summer coming up for DA.

[Roy Hobbs]

ONE wildcard this offseason for guys like Ray will be the Knicks. 

Seriously, who wants to go to the Knicks?  They can offer 2 max deals, but have a lot of spots to fill.  They won't be able to get a max player at first without a roster to attract them, and signing a player like Ray might be necessary to lure a player like...anyone max worthy.  They'll offer Ray a 5-year guaranteed deal starting around 8 million, forcing the C's to pay 12 mil/year for a 2-3 year deal (3rd partially guaranteed).

If Lebron or anybody else is requiring a strong roster before they sign there, wouldn't they want a better foundation than Ray?  I love the guy, but he's going to be 35 this summer.  I don't think he's the key piece that big name free agents want as a second fiddle.  Similarly, I can't see any team, under any circumstances, offering Ray a 5 year deal (especially not one starting at $40 million).  That's simply cap suicide for a guy that old.

[More Banners]

ONE wildcard this offseason for guys like Ray will be the Knicks.  

Seriously, who wants to go to the Knicks?  They can offer 2 max deals, but have a lot of spots to fill.  They won't be able to get a max player at first without a roster to attract them, and signing a player like Ray might be necessary to lure a player like...anyone max worthy.  They'll offer Ray a 5-year guaranteed deal starting around 8 million, forcing the C's to pay 12 mil/year for a 2-3 year deal (3rd partially guaranteed).

If Lebron or anybody else is requiring a strong roster before they sign there, wouldn't they want a better foundation than Ray?  I love the guy, but he's going to be 35 this summer.  I don't think he's the key piece that big name free agents want as a second fiddle.  Similarly, I can't see any team, under any circumstances, offering Ray a 5 year deal (especially not one starting at $40 million).  That's simply cap suicide for a guy that old.

5/$40 is only $8 mil per, a bit over mid-level.  Considering other deals mentioned, 4/40 wouldn't be out of the question for Ray to some teams, I think, especially if that 4th year enables them to get something else done and/or is an option or partially guaranteed.

ADD:  They could lock up David Lee to similar money once they fail to get Bosh and have a Ray/Lee roster to present to LeBra.  That isn't a bad combo of shooting and hustle, outside/inside.  Imagine Ray playing D'Antoni ball....wow.

And if I want to be top banana, I want a wing man who'll spread the floor for me without stealing the spotlight.  Ray fits the bill.  I want someone who can help keep the rest of the team together in the locker room.  I want someone who's been there.  And I want someone who I can pass the ball to for the last shot when I'm doubled who will sink it.  Ray's that guy, and there aren't many of them out there.

I can see a couple of ways that Ray could [still] command serious money this offseason.  I was among those hoping, if he stayed, it would be in the just-over-midlevel range, but that seems unlikely as I survey the landscape now.  Just tossing out scenarios, of course, but in doing so, keeping in mind that Ray's game isn't based on things that decline with age, like strength or speed, and that more than one team overpays every year to fill a need, or to find that one special piece.  Also keeping in mind that NY and NJ are pretty close to Connecticut, too...

"Old shooters never die, they just fade away."

[LooseCannon]

If Lebron or anybody else is requiring a strong roster before they sign there, wouldn't they want a better foundation than Ray?

Which players on the Cavs are better than Ray Allen?

[Roy Hobbs]

If Lebron or anybody else is requiring a strong roster before they sign there, wouldn't they want a better foundation than Ray?

Which players on the Cavs are better than Ray Allen?

If Lebron re-signs in Cleveland, it won't be because of their strong roster.

Like I said, neither Lebron nor any other big name free agent is going to be more or less likely due to the presence of Ray Allen on a roster.  Ray isn't the type of superstar that is going to sway other players to sign with a team.  That's not a diss against Ray; it's a reality of his age. 

I mean, if you were a free agent, would you make a decision regarding where you want to play the next 5-6 years based upon the presence of a 35 year old shooting guard?

[nickagneta]

One thing not being talked about or even mentioned is, if Tony Allen continues to shine in his role, could he start to get more offers with some money attached that he would accept over the Celtics and at what point would Danny just say, see ya?

Or for that matter, if the C's see there is a market out there for Tony, could they sign and trade him along with either Perk, Sheed, or Baby for someone of value or a pick?

For instance, if Atlanta loses Joe Johnson then obviously Jamal Crawford moves into their starting SG role. Would they need a backup defensive combo guard like Tony and could trading him in a sign and trade with Baby net us a signed and traded Josh Childress and Maurice Evans? Or something like that.

[Brendan]

If some team gets crazy over Tony Allen - its definitely in TA's and the teams interest to get them to S&T with the C's rather than use an exception.

I'd be scared of Lebron making a destination attractive for Ray Allen. Hypothetically Lebron resigns and CLE trades for Bosh or Lebron goes to Dallas or Lebron and Staudamire both go NYK... in any case wouldn't Ray Allen be a nice piece? Sure he doesn't get you 5 years of wing play, but he takes a team that would need a few years otherwise and makes it a contender right away. I mean Ray Allen is better than every other wing or guard on CLE (Williams, West, Moon, Parker) and a perfect compliment to Lebron.

[LB3533]

I don't believe either will leave Boston if we don't lowball them.

If we offer a fair deal, they both will stay and leave money off the table to keep contending with the current group of Celtics.