Author Topic: Reloading around Rondo with Denver  (Read 4436 times)

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Reloading around Rondo with Denver
« on: May 11, 2010, 10:34:47 AM »

Offline Michael Anthony

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When launching a new project or business, there is little need to reinvent the wheel - you can look around an industry, see what has worked in the past and take steps to ensure your people do it better.

Boston is about to build a team around a point guard. No easy task, but not impossible.

For the blueprint, I look at two teams that have had great success building in this way: Isaiah's Pistons and Nash's Suns (2006-07).

In their best years, both teams put a strong shooting, strong defensive partner in the backcourt with their star: Dumars in Detroit and Bell in Phoenix.
They had versatile playmakers at the small forward: Daintley and Diaw, respectively.
Both teams had a big that could knock down the three and rebound: Laimbeer and Marion.

The biggest difference between these teams is the second big, which ultimately defined their style. Detroit had a rotation of rebounders, defenders and little-things guys in Mahorn, Edwards and Sally. Phoenix has an up-tempo, offensive beast in Amare Stoudemire.

In both cases, coming from the bench was pure energy in the form of points, hustle and rebounds. Detroit had the Johnson-Aguirre-Rodman combination. Phoenix had the Barbosa-Jones-Thomas group.

Two caveats. Number one, I recognize that the Detroit team is better. Much better in fact. I think that is due to external factors - free agency, salary cap and league dilution. Second, Detroit won two championships, Phoenix did not. I believe a strong confluence of events leads to championships, not just the quality of the team. Would Detroit have won if Boston was healthy? Could Phoenix have won if Stoudemire was not suspended in the Spurs series? Lets move on.

The key to building a champion around Rondo is well defined - we need shooters and defenders at three positions, we need a wing that can create and we need a well rounded bench.

I think we can acquire a number of these things in a straight forward trade with Denver. I propose sending Perkins, Davis, Wallace, Ray Allen (2 years, $30 million) and our 2010 first rounder in exchange for Nene, Martin, Smith and Afflalo.

Afflalo becomes the sharp shooting, tenacious defender in the backcourt with Rondo (Think Bell, not Dumars).
Pierce continues to start, combining his commitment to defense with the ability to create as needed.
Garnett also continues to start, bringing good floor spacing, rebounding and defense.
Nene takes over the starting center spot. This moves us closer to Phoenix as Nene is one of the faster end-to-end centers in the league. An offensive beast in the right system.

Smith and Martin come off the bench. Both are extremely high energy players, Smith bringing scoring from the wing and Marting bringing rebounding, defense and grit.

We round out the bench with an MLE center like Cambey, Dampier, Heyward or Shaq for two years and an LLE point guard like Pargo, Watson or Claxton for two years.

Extend Pierce through 2011-12 at $15 then $17 million, and resign Finley, Gaffney and S. Williams for two years at the minimum to make the financials and roster work.

This team is up tempo, with good defenders and shooters at three positions. Maybe the best bench in basketball. All of the contracts clear after 2011-12 except Rondo, and we have three future building blocks in Rondo (24), Nene (27) and Smith (24) instead of just Rondo and Perkins.

Denver makes the move for financial reasons and frontcourt depth, their Achilles heal for the past two seasons. The pick helps build for the future around a core of Lawson-Anthony-Perkins.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2010, 02:44:24 PM by Michael Anthony »
"All I have to know is, he's my coach, and I follow his lead. He didn't have to say anything in here this week. We all knew what we had to do. He's a big part of our family, and we're like his extended family. And we did what good families do when one of their own is affected." - Teddy Bruschi

Re: Rebuilding around Rondo with Denver
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2010, 11:48:48 AM »

Offline jerrykid69

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Does everyone have so much time on their hands that they have all day to type up a small essay about the Celtics future.
“They played well when they had to. Paul Pierce is the best in the business when it comes to hitting fourth-quarter shots.”

-Kevin Garnett-

Re: Rebuilding around Rondo with Denver
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2010, 12:52:39 PM »

Offline Michael Anthony

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Does everyone have so much time on their hands that they have all day to type up a small essay about the Celtics future.

The write up only took a few minutes, but I've been thinking about it since last night. Any thoughts on the content?
"All I have to know is, he's my coach, and I follow his lead. He didn't have to say anything in here this week. We all knew what we had to do. He's a big part of our family, and we're like his extended family. And we did what good families do when one of their own is affected." - Teddy Bruschi

Re: Rebuilding around Rondo with Denver
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2010, 01:06:49 PM »

Offline Casperian

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I think we´re giving up way too much in this scenario. Not one of the players we get back is a top talent, and Martin is too old and neither he or Nene are good enough to be the centerpiece in such a trade.

What we really need if we want to build around Rondo is a true go-to guy, everything else is secondary, in my opinion. As good as Rondo is, he will most definitly never be a true #1 option in this league.
In the summer of 2017, I predicted this team would not win a championship for the next 10 years.

3 down, 7 to go.

Re: Rebuilding around Rondo with Denver
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2010, 01:18:17 PM »

Offline wiley

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When launching a new project or business, there is little need to reinvent the wheel - you can look around an industry, see what has worked in the past and take steps to ensure your people do it better.

Boston is about to build a team around a point guard. No easy task, but not impossible.

For the blueprint, I look at two teams that have had great success building in this way: Isaiah's Pistons and Nash's Suns (2006-07).

In their best years, both teams put a strong shooting, strong defensive partner in the backcourt with their star: Dumars in Detroit and Bell in Phoenix.
They had versatile playmakers at the small forward: Daintley and Diaw, respectively.
Both teams had a big that could knock down the three and rebound: Laimbeer and Marion.

The biggest difference between these teams is the second big, which ultimately defined their style. Detroit had a rotation of rebounders, defenders and little-things guys in Mahorn, Edwards and Sally. Phoenix has an up-tempo, offensive beast in Amare Stoudemire.

In both cases, coming from the bench was pure energy in the form of points, hustle and rebounds. Detroit had the Johnson-Aguirre-Rodman combination. Phoenix had the Barbosa-Jones-Thomas group.

Two caveats. Number one, I recognize that the Detroit team is better. Much better in fact. I think that is due to external factors - free agency, salary cap and league dilution. Second, Detroit won two championships, Phoenix did not. I believe a strong confluence of events leads to championships, not just the quality of the team. Would Detroit have won if Boston was healthy? Could Phoenix have won if Stoudemire was not suspended in the Spurs series? Lets move on.

The key to building a champion around Rondo is well defined - we need shooters and defenders at three positions, we need a wing that can create and we need a well rounded bench.

I think we can acquire a number of these things in a straight forward trade with Denver. I propose sending Perkins, Davis, Wallace, Ray Allen (2 years, $30 million) and our 2010 first rounder in exchange for Nene, Martin, Smith and Afflalo.

Afflalo becomes the sharp shooting, tenacious defender in the backcourt with Rondo (Think Bell, not Dumars).
Pierce continues to start, combining his commitment to defense with the ability to create as needed.
Garnett also continues to start, bringing good floor spacing, rebounding and defense.
Nene takes over the starting center spot. This moves us closer to Phoenix as Nene is one of the faster end-to-end centers in the league. An offensive beast in the right system.

Smith and Martin come off the bench. Both are extremely high energy players, Smith bringing scoring from the wing and Marting bringing rebounding, defense and grit.

We round out the bench with an MLE center like Cambey, Dampier, Heyward or Shaq for two years and an LLE point guard like Pargo, Watson or Claxton for two years.

Extend Pierce through 2011-12 at $15 then $17 million, and resign Finley, Gaffney and S. Williams for two years at the minimum to make the financials and roster work.

This team is up tempo, with good defenders and shooters at three positions. Maybe the best bench in basketball. All of the contracts clear after 2011-12 except Rondo, and we have three future building blocks in Rondo (24), Nene (27) and Smith (24) instead of just Rondo and Perkins.

Denver makes the move for financial reasons and frontcourt depth, their Achilles heal for the past two seasons. The pick helps build for the future around a core of Lawson-Anthony-Perkins.

TP for "Let's move on."  I loved that.  And also for taking a look back at a couple of PG-dominant teams...

The trade itself I'm not to fond of.....who knows if it would work out talent-wise (it's certainly not horrible and probably even an upgrade, as you clearly feel)
But I don't like Martin or Smith!  Therefore I can't do the deal...
I'd rather bring in guys who stand out, or at least are neutral, on the character/maturity question...

Re: Rebuilding around Rondo with Denver
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2010, 02:04:00 PM »

Offline RJ87

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The only Denver player I want transplanted to the Celtics to play with Rondo is Carmelo Anthony... And depending on what the new CBA looks like, we may be able go after him in the summer of 2011.
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C: Kristaps Porzingis/Bobby Portis/James Wiseman

Re: Rebuilding around Rondo with Denver
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2010, 02:43:31 PM »

Offline Michael Anthony

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I think we´re giving up way too much in this scenario. Not one of the players we get back is a top talent, and Martin is too old and neither he or Nene are good enough to be the centerpiece in such a trade.

What we really need if we want to build around Rondo is a true go-to guy, everything else is secondary, in my opinion. As good as Rondo is, he will most definitly never be a true #1 option in this league.

Not sure I agree that we are giving up to much:

Smith > Allen
Nene > Perkins
Martin > Wallace
Afflalo > Davis

Smith has the potential to become an elite shooting guard in this league - supremely athletic, prototype size, great shot and good handle.

He has a history of being a knucklehead, but what were you doing when you were 22? I have not heard anything negative this season, so he may have matured.

Finally, the contract situation lines up well. Our payroll next season is about $1 million more than this season. The first rounder costs us $5 million in salary and tax, so getting rid of it is probably necesary.
"All I have to know is, he's my coach, and I follow his lead. He didn't have to say anything in here this week. We all knew what we had to do. He's a big part of our family, and we're like his extended family. And we did what good families do when one of their own is affected." - Teddy Bruschi

Re: Reloading around Rondo with Denver
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2010, 03:04:47 PM »

Online wdleehi

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Terrible trade.



The Celtics get softer on defense.


The Celtics overspend way to much for a backup PF.


And Ray is better the Smith.



Re: Rebuilding around Rondo with Denver
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2010, 03:05:54 PM »

Offline Bankshot

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The only Denver player I want transplanted to the Celtics to play with Rondo is Carmelo Anthony... And depending on what the new CBA looks like, we may be able go after him in the summer of 2011.
"If somebody would have told you when he was playing with the Knicks that Nate Robinson was going to change a big time game and he was going to do it mostly because of his defense, somebody would have got slapped."  Mark Jackson

Re: Rebuilding around Rondo with Denver
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2010, 03:07:53 PM »

Offline RJ87

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I think we´re giving up way too much in this scenario. Not one of the players we get back is a top talent, and Martin is too old and neither he or Nene are good enough to be the centerpiece in such a trade.

What we really need if we want to build around Rondo is a true go-to guy, everything else is secondary, in my opinion. As good as Rondo is, he will most definitly never be a true #1 option in this league.

Not sure I agree that we are giving up to much:

Smith > Allen
Nene > Perkins
Martin > Wallace
Afflalo > Davis

Smith has the potential to become an elite shooting guard in this league - supremely athletic, prototype size, great shot and good handle.

He has a history of being a knucklehead, but what were you doing when you were 22? I have not heard anything negative this season, so he may have matured.

Finally, the contract situation lines up well. Our payroll next season is about $1 million more than this season. The first rounder costs us $5 million in salary and tax, so getting rid of it is probably necesary.

No way is JR Smith better than Ray Allen... Smith has the potential to be deadly, but he's still FAR too streaky to rely on offensively on a consistent basis.

I like Nene, but as I said in one of my own threads, he has a tendency to disappear for long stretches during games and would be 2 steps back defensively.

Martin is better than Wallace - if he's healthy. That's a BIG IF. $16 for him with those shaky knees coupled with KG and his knee whoas means we would have $30m wrapped up in players who play the same position and are overbearing injury risks.

I do like Afflalo though, but you can't really compare him to Davis. Two different positions, very different responsibilities for their respective teams.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2010, 04:38:52 PM by RJ87 »
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PG: Kyrie Irving/Patty Mills/Jalen Brunson
SG: OG Anunoby/Norman Powell/Matisse Thybulle
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PF: Giannis Antetokounmpo/Robert Covington
C: Kristaps Porzingis/Bobby Portis/James Wiseman

Re: Reloading around Rondo with Denver
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2010, 03:54:12 PM »

Offline Michael Anthony

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Terrible trade.



The Celtics get softer on defense.


The Celtics overspend way to much for a backup PF.


And Ray is better the Smith.


Terrible? Really?

The Celtics get softer on defense? Ray Allen is a middling defender, and Rasheed Wallace stinks. Davis is a non-factor on that side of the floor. Only Perkins hurts. Afflalo is developing a reputation as a stopper, and Martin has always been good on that end - including against quicker 4's like Jamison and Lewis. Smith is a sieve, but Nene is a brick wall and amongst the leaders at his position in steals every season.

The Celtics overspend on a backup power forward? Martin is an expiring contract. He also rebounds and defends. His $15 million seems like better value than Wallace's $13.

And Ray is better the Smith. You are probably right, but for how long? Ray is 35 next season, and there is no garauntee we keep him anyway.

You also didn't mention Afflalo at all, a perfect fit for this team.
"All I have to know is, he's my coach, and I follow his lead. He didn't have to say anything in here this week. We all knew what we had to do. He's a big part of our family, and we're like his extended family. And we did what good families do when one of their own is affected." - Teddy Bruschi

Re: Reloading around Rondo with Denver
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2010, 04:41:30 PM »

Offline PosImpos

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The better question is why would Denver do this.
Never forget the Champs of '08, or the gutsy warriors of '10.

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Re: Reloading around Rondo with Denver
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2010, 04:47:02 PM »

Offline FallGuy

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The way to build around Rondo is to find a second superstar. That's the flaw with the original proposal: it shuffles the cards between now and 2012 but doesn't address that major issue. If we're dealing Perk and a draft pick, it should be in a roll of the dice towards getting a star.

Re: Reloading around Rondo with Denver
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2010, 06:13:41 PM »

Offline Eddie20

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Don't like the deal at all either. Nene, who is turning 28 in a couple of months, scares me with all his injury history. If he was often injured in his 20's how would he be in his early 30's? So I have some definite uncertainty in calling him a "building block for the future".

JR Smith is a bad shot selection/knucklehead who will never be an "elite star" because his character flaws just won't allow it. He's a rich man's Ricky Davis. Allen, for what be brings on the court and the leadership he provides off it, is simply the far superior player. This year, next year, and the following year as well.

Also...

Camby re-signed.

Haywood will get more than the MLE. In fact, a MLE deal would be a paycut.

Ditto for Shaq. If not for his play than for his drawing power.

LLE is not going to be available since we used it on Daniels.

Wouldn't call Dantley "versatile". He was a scorer, who did his work in the paint, and wasn't that good a perimeter shooter, worse as a ballhandler, and just plain awful as a defender.

Re: Reloading around Rondo with Denver
« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2010, 06:57:39 PM »

Offline FatjohnReturns

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JR Smith and Kenyon Martin are 2 of the players I want least on the Celtics. NO THANK YOU