Author Topic: The Real Question We Should Be Asking (Can BBD be future starter?)  (Read 12757 times)

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Re: The Real Question We Should Be Asking
« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2010, 09:06:15 AM »

Offline Who

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Davis averaged 5.6 rebounds in 33 minutes a night as a starter and the same again (5.6) in 36 minutes a night in the playoffs. His rebounding and defense dropped dramatically when he entered the starting lineup.

Davis is a below averaged defensive player at the four and a below average rebounder. He is a good complementary scorer but is inefficient-to-mediocre efficiency (TS% of 51% for his career).

Glen Davis doesn't make enough positive contributions, as a starting power forward, to warrant the position. Davis an undersized backup center (where he is a plus defender) and he is a very effective in that role.

Re: The Real Question We Should Be Asking
« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2010, 09:08:01 AM »

Offline Bankshot

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I don't think so.  I view him as he is now, a really good bench player who can start in a pinch.  I'm not sure he can be a successful full time starter for a contender though.  But who knows, stranger things have happened.
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Re: The Real Question We Should Be Asking
« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2010, 09:08:45 AM »

Offline Who

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If Glen Davis loses 40lbs? Definitely.

At his current weight? No, he's not good enough. He showed that he wasn't good enough to do the job last season.
My belief is that Davis got down to around 240lbs he would be a cross between Udonis Haslem (defense/rebounding) and David West (jump shot/cerebral feel for the game). Definitely a player who could be a starter and a young player with the potential to become an all-star.

At Davis' current weight, I think he is what he is. An undersized backup five. A good one ... but that's all he is.

Re: The Real Question We Should Be Asking
« Reply #18 on: April 22, 2010, 09:16:27 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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If Baby DID lose 40 pounds, would he even be able to play the PF spot anymore?  Seems that he'd be more of a biggish SF at that point.  As much as his bulk seems to hold him back at times, I'm thinking he's be a pretty atrocious rebounder; short, less massive, and still likely without great hops or athleticism.  Starting PFs on championship teams ought to be able to dominate the glass.
Maybe if he did lose 40lbs he could be a starting 3 on great team if his jumpshot improved a lot.  Maybe he'd be the weak link, but I think he could start.  At the 4, he doesn't defend the rim or finish at the rim well enough.
Davis will never be a 3.

Re: The Real Question We Should Be Asking
« Reply #19 on: April 22, 2010, 09:28:05 AM »

Offline FatjohnReturns

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Davis will be the Celtics next starting Power Forward. KG cannot play heavy minutes next year being 33 and logging 45000 career minutes. This team needs so much retooling the question of if he can is irrelevant. He will be the next starting PF on this team.

You look at the roster Ray,Tony,Nate may be gone. Finley will not be back. You got Rasheed and KG practically in the old age home and we are over the cap. So yeah next year hopefully you bring back Tony and you start Rondo,Tony,Pierce,Baby,Perkins.

Signing another Patrick O'Bryant or Mikki Moore is not gonna do anything. So besides trading Rondo for a stud PF what else can we do?

Re: The Real Question We Should Be Asking
« Reply #20 on: April 22, 2010, 09:30:11 AM »

Offline thirstyboots18

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I say no.  Glen Davis's big contribution, IMO, is taking up space under the basket, both on offense and defense and the energy he brings to the team.  Size and strength are major contributors to that. He is passionate and rebounds.  He is not long enough to be a great shot blocker, and is not successful with put backs because of getting his own shot blocked.  I think Davis is a first class substitute and in that role is a star, but he does not make the grade as a front line building block.  I have become a fan of Glen Davis, and if he is willing to accept his role, I love having him on this team...much the same way I feel about Tony Allen.
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Re: The Real Question We Should Be Asking
« Reply #21 on: April 22, 2010, 09:50:25 AM »

Offline the_Bird

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I don't think BBD can ever become a top-level rebounder (a la Haslem), with or without these 40#.  He'd be a little quicker, maybe have slightly better hops, but I've got to believe that would be more than offset by his lack of bulk.  He doesn't rebound that great now not *just* because he can't jump, but simply because he's too short (and his arms aren't particularly long for his body; he's no McHale).

What he DOES do well on the glass (get in position) will be much more difficult for him to do without as much backside.  Take that weight away from him, how's he going to survive down low?

He is what he is, a decent bench player when his head's on straight.  He could start on a medicore team, but I don't see him as someone you want at tipoff if you've got real championship aspirations.   

Re: The Real Question We Should Be Asking
« Reply #22 on: April 22, 2010, 09:51:36 AM »

Offline Spilling Green Dye

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Davis will be the Celtics next starting Power Forward. KG cannot play heavy minutes next year being 33 and logging 45000 career minutes. This team needs so much retooling the question of if he can is irrelevant. He will be the next starting PF on this team.

You look at the roster Ray,Tony,Nate may be gone. Finley will not be back. You got Rasheed and KG practically in the old age home and we are over the cap. So yeah next year hopefully you bring back Tony and you start Rondo,Tony,Pierce,Baby,Perkins.

Signing another Patrick O'Bryant or Mikki Moore is not gonna do anything. So besides trading Rondo for a stud PF what else can we do?

Please no, you are scaring me :(

Re: The Real Question We Should Be Asking
« Reply #23 on: April 22, 2010, 09:55:58 AM »

Offline angryguy77

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No other team wanted him last summer, so that should answer the question.
Back to wanting Joe fired.

Re: The Real Question We Should Be Asking
« Reply #24 on: April 22, 2010, 09:57:21 AM »

Offline Brendan

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He needs a lot more lift to be able to finish at the rim (or draw fouls) instead of getting his shot sent. I don't know if simple weight loss is enough to get that, but it's part of it. I assume whatever improvement to his lift, would also improve his foot speed, and endurance.

I don't think he will ever make that transformation. So he'll continue to be what he is, a decent backup big.

Re: The Real Question We Should Be Asking
« Reply #25 on: April 22, 2010, 10:21:22 AM »

Offline PosImpos

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Big Baby will always be a solid energy guy off the bench who can have a big game now and then against an opponent with an undersized / untalented / soft frontcourt. 

He'll never be a starter who can average more than 10 points a game or more than 7 or 8 rebounds a game efficiently.  He just doesn't have the body for it.  If he were 2 inches taller and 40-50 lbs lighter, then sure.  As he is, no.

  It's pretty nonsensical to say he'll never be a starter averaging more than 10 a game when he started about 30 games last year including playoff games and averaged well above that. Also, his per36 rebounds was about 8 (to go with about 13 points). Can he be an above average starter? I don't know. Can he give you more than 10/7 as a starter? Yes.

Notice I said "efficiently"
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Re: The Real Question We Should Be Asking
« Reply #26 on: April 22, 2010, 10:38:04 AM »

Offline Greenbean

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If Glen Davis loses 40lbs? Definitely.

At his current weight? No, he's not good enough. He showed that he wasn't good enough to do the job last season.
My belief is that Davis got down to around 240lbs he would be a cross between Udonis Haslem (defense/rebounding) and David West (jump shot/cerebral feel for the game). Definitely a player who could be a starter and a young player with the potential to become an all-star.

At Davis' current weight, I think he is what he is. An undersized backup five. A good one ... but that's all he is.

David West is more athletic and can finish around the rim with great touch. BBD has the worst touch I have ever seen sround the basket and a terrible feel for finishing. He can shoot, and maybe he would be a bit more athletic if he lost the weight but he will never be as talented as David West offensively.

Edit: I love Big Baby but I love him in the role he is in now. If he ever lost weight it is not even a guarantee he would get much more explosive. He also does not have much length to go along with his lack of height at the position.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2010, 10:56:50 AM by Greenbean »

Re: The Real Question We Should Be Asking (Can BBD be future starter?)
« Reply #27 on: April 22, 2010, 11:22:49 AM »

Offline ScoobyDoo

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Yes, he can be a starter on a championship level team, with a few conditions. There are several reason why this is so, then I'll list the limiting conditions:

1. Heart, he has a huge one and that should never be under estimated. Beasely has a ton of talent, so does J O'neal, but they don't have alot of heart and never have. There are alot of players like them. There are not alot of players with the heart of Big baby. I'll put my money on that and I'd much rather go into a fight with baby than alot of other guys who apparently have "more talent".

2. Toughness: He will put his nose "willingly" into the mix every night and will go to the mat without hesitation.

3. Strength: Very few players have come aloing with his level of pure strength and physical stature. Right now, you have Shaq, Howard, Baby and....and....maybe 1-2 other guys in league. Rare commodity, particulalry helpful in the playoffs.

4. Talent and determination: He is talented enough and determined enough to continue to improve his effectiveness, he's already shown that with his current progress each year.

5. He's a gamer: This may be the most imnportant one of all. There is no question he likes the limelight, the big game, the big show. All great players have that quality and seek that light. Baby LOVES it, he wants to be a star, take the big shot, etc. I AM NOT SYAING HE IS A "GREAT PLAYER" right now. He is just a decent player. However, he has shown he is a gamer and wants it.

Now, here are the only real limitations I see.

1. He needs to lose weight, yes, but he doesn't have to lose 40-50 pounds. 25-30 would do it. I guy like Baby losing 25-30 pounds would be like me losing 15-20 poounds. It wouldn't cost him or me any strength whatsoever. To the contrary, it would probably make him stronger. He'd also be faster and have more lift. He is already remarkably fast for his current weight. Think of him with 30 less pounds.

2. Karl Malone program. All body fat gone, and ripped.

3. He's getting better at the next thing but still has a way to go...undestand how to use his body width and weight to create more contact that also creates more space for his shot in close without getting offensive fouls. Shaq, Malone, Barkeley and most other good big man scorers developed this around the rim. It's called bullying...   

4. The only other key things he needs to do, and it's a big one, is:

A) learn how to use the width of his body to protect the ball, mainly by continuing to develop the little baby hook he used last night rolling through the lane. He needs to perfect that shot for himself with both his right and left hands. His body / shoulders are wide enough to give him the space to get that type of shot off consistently around the rim. His jump is fine and imporving, he already can put the ball on the floor. His main problem is figuring out a go to shot around the rim to prevetn so many blocks. This shot, left and right hand will go along way towards solving that problem. If he solves those problems, you'd probably be looking at 30 points last night, with 10 boards. Those are starting numbers.

B) Understand when he's buried under the basket and just get the ball back out and reset. Will greatly improve his efficiency and overall effectiveness as well.

It took Perk alot of years to improve slightly offensively. Baby has infinitely more natural offensive talent.

If Baby can accomplish the above, he absolutely can be a starting PF on a championship team. Defensively and offensively he will always have some limitations due to his height and shorter arms.

BUT, everyone has their own specific limitations, including KG, PP, Ray Allen and Rondo.

Defensively, he will have to use his strength to keep slightly taller guys just outside there normal distance form the bakset that is their comfort zone, which will limit their offense.

Think of Baby with 25-30 pounds less wieght, just as strong, or stronger actually, about 20% faster, with more lift around the rim and a go to left and right baby hook in close.

It's a long list but all in all not really that much to improve, it's his job...and he has the talent to achieve all the above. The biggest challenge for him, will probably be if he can take the weight off, enough to make him a bit quicker without losing strength. If he can do all that, he can probably average 20-30 a night with 8-12 boards and a few blocks, a few steals. Those are not starters numbers, they're all star numbers.

If he can't evelove like that, I agree with everyone else that he will be just a good olisd role player off the bench as an energy guy. Either way, I'm interested in keeping him long term as some part of the "next team" after our current big three are done.   

Re: The Real Question We Should Be Asking (Can BBD be future starter?)
« Reply #28 on: April 22, 2010, 11:34:18 AM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

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Like a lot of others, I'd be skeptical of building around BBD as a major piece of a potential title contender.  That being said, there's nothing that necessarily prevents him from being a starter on a contender; starting lineups come in all shapes and sizes.

However, I don't think BBD is a strong enough rebounder, finisher, or defender to be an elite big man, and more often than not in the NBA, teams need at least one elite front line player to succeed in the playoffs.  There are exceptions, of course, but generally, it's big men that win championships.

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Re: The Real Question We Should Be Asking (Can BBD be future starter?)
« Reply #29 on: April 22, 2010, 11:45:55 AM »

Offline EJPLAYA

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Why would we want to take a guy who is very solid at a much needed role (energy guy off the bench and occasional fill in starter if the main guy goes down) and try and put him in a role where he can't succeed long term?!

The reason he is successful as a fill in now and then is because of who is around him. If I am the coach and I have to go up against Rondo, PP, Ray, and Perk surrounding him, do you really think I am worried about game planning for BBD? I am telling the guy guarding him to rotate to one of the other guys as needed. I know that if BBD happens to get a rebound down low then he is likely going to not score anyway. If he is left wide open for a jumper then statistics say he will make 40% of them. I can live with that.

If our starting lineup is Rondo, ?, ? BBD, and Perk in the future then we are likely in very bad shape unless those two unknown guys are stars.