Tim Duncan or KG

[LB3533]

We all love KG, but fellow Celtics fans... if Duncan and KG had both been available for the same trade in 2007, who would you have preferred?

Tell the truth.

KG.

Because of our current team constructed the way it was.

With Duncan, there's just no way to utilize Pierce's slashing ability as effective as we could have with KG playing the high post at the 4. (Unless you make Pierce a 6th man just like Manu, it would not have worked out as well as it has.)

Perkins would not be as valuable to our team with Tim Duncan manning the paint. (Duncan needs to be paired with a high post or perimeter big man (D-Rob, Rasho, Matt Boner or McDyess)

[LB3533]

Also, anyone arguing about better team, better organization and using this as evidence that Duncan is better is really out to lunch on this "player versus player" comparison.

1. Spurs organization is eons better than the Timberwolves's organization.

2. GM's: RC Buford + Popavich >>>> Kevin McHale (By far - like comparing Russell to Hasheem Thabeet far)

3. Head Coach: Popavich >>>> Flip + Dwyane Casey + Kevin McHale (By far - like Red to Sam Mitchell far)

Spurs scouting and drafting were infinity times better than the Wolves (whom had almost zero valuable draft picks after the Joe Smith scandal) + the Spurs were the pioneers to dip into the European players.

I contend that Duncan's consistent success depended heavily on the consistent competency of his organization.

KG's team "failures" largely coincided with the failures of his front office.

[Birdbrain]

This is always an interesting debate and one I have hard time getting a real feel for but, my opinion is as follows:

First Let me preface this comment with the fact that I've always respected Duncan's skills and approach to the game but..

KG is the superior athlete and if their positions were switched in their primes would have had a few more rings.  Obviously there is no scientific reasoning or stats behind this opinion but, I felt that before he ever came to Boston.

KG is one-in-a-lifetime athlete that still appears to be underrated due to never getting the wins that Duncan rightfully attained sometimes even beating KGs teams to accomplish.  But when you compare their organizations and their teammates through the years looking only at wins as the deciding factor misses a lot, IMO.

I'm fine knowing that I'm probably more on an island in this belief.

[Eja117]

So are people here suggesting that if you traded KG's career for TD's that the Spurs get better and win maybe 5 rings, and the TWolves get worse and ....well it's hard to get worse than they were....never get out of the first round I guess?

Who suggested that?

Instead people are suggesting that if their teams were reversed you get the same, or roughly the same results for both players.

You're right that nobody specifically said that. I think that's just the conclusion one would lean towards if people think KG was better than Duncan, right?

[wdleehi]

Looking at who stepped up and lead his team to titles, Duncan 4, KG 1. 

And Duncan never had players as good as Pierce and Ray.  (Robinson was past his prime when they played together.  Still good defensively, but lost a step offensively.  Much like KG this year)

Look at their teammates. KG has had how many teams that were good enough to win a title, four? One with the T-Wolves and all of his years with the C's.(If we count this year)

Duncan has had a legit contending team around him far more often. One player has had 4 chances at a ring and the other has had at least 8.

Basketball is a team game.

I disagree.  He had many teams with talent. 

Which ones? Which talented second tier talents did KG have to play with?

Early on
Googs and Marbury
Then Brandon, Smith and Wally.

Then they added Billups

And finally, the Spree Cassell team.


None of those guys are the on Pierce's level in terms of taking over at the end of the game, and that hurt KG's playoff winning chances. 

Duncan never needed that other player to do that. 

None of those players were as good as Duncan's teammates. Both in talent and in fit.

Googs was only high quality KGs first two years, and he forced KG to play the 3. Marbury isn't a player you could win with, I think that much is obvious. Terrell Brandon, what??? Wally was a very efficient scorer, but not much beyond that.

Brandon was a two time all star when he joined him.

Googs, Marbury and Wally all made all stars with him. 

Look what these players were doing when they were with him.



Parker in the last title was approaching Pierce's level.  Manu was never on Pierce's level. 

But who kept that team as a contender as Manu and Parker came into the league and became the players that they became? 

[LB3533]

Looking at who stepped up and lead his team to titles, Duncan 4, KG 1. 

And Duncan never had players as good as Pierce and Ray.  (Robinson was past his prime when they played together.  Still good defensively, but lost a step offensively.  Much like KG this year)

Look at their teammates. KG has had how many teams that were good enough to win a title, four? One with the T-Wolves and all of his years with the C's.(If we count this year)

Duncan has had a legit contending team around him far more often. One player has had 4 chances at a ring and the other has had at least 8.

Basketball is a team game.

I disagree.  He had many teams with talent. 

Which ones? Which talented second tier talents did KG have to play with?

Early on
Googs and Marbury
Then Brandon, Smith and Wally.

Then they added Billups

And finally, the Spree Cassell team.


None of those guys are the on Pierce's level in terms of taking over at the end of the game, and that hurt KG's playoff winning chances. 

Duncan never needed that other player to do that. 

None of those players were as good as Duncan's teammates. Both in talent and in fit.

Googs was only high quality KGs first two years, and he forced KG to play the 3. Marbury isn't a player you could win with, I think that much is obvious. Terrell Brandon, what??? Wally was a very efficient scorer, but not much beyond that.

Brandon was a two time all star when he joined him.

Googs, Marbury and Wally all made all stars with him. 

Look what these players were doing when they were with him.



Parker in the last title was approaching Pierce's level.  Manu was never on Pierce's level. 

But who kept that team as a contender as Manu and Parker came into the league and became the players that they became? 

Talent is one thing, but how did they play WITH KG?


Brandon was 1 and half years away from being an All-Star and his career with Minny was injury plagued...he was never the same.

Marbury never made AS in Minny.

Compare to Duncan's teammates and how they played with Duncan?

Duncan has 6 other All-star teammates 2 from Robinson, 1 from Manu and 3 from Parker.

KG had only 3 other All-star teammates, 1 from Googs, 1 from Wally, and 1 from Sam Cassell.

Tell me how long did each of those teammates play with each superstar?

Duncan had the luxury to play with his mates for his entire career.

KG lost Googs after 3 seasons, lost Cassell after 2 seasons and played with Wally, as his 2nd best player which is clearly not enough for championship anything.

Meanwhile Duncan got to play with the Admiral for 6 seasons and is now going on 8 seasons with Manu and 9 seasons with Parker.

KG was never given that same luxury, nor the same consistency.

6 seasons with Wally as the next best player....that is god awful.

[wdleehi]

Looking at who stepped up and lead his team to titles, Duncan 4, KG 1. 

And Duncan never had players as good as Pierce and Ray.  (Robinson was past his prime when they played together.  Still good defensively, but lost a step offensively.  Much like KG this year)

Look at their teammates. KG has had how many teams that were good enough to win a title, four? One with the T-Wolves and all of his years with the C's.(If we count this year)

Duncan has had a legit contending team around him far more often. One player has had 4 chances at a ring and the other has had at least 8.

Basketball is a team game.

I disagree.  He had many teams with talent. 

Which ones? Which talented second tier talents did KG have to play with?

Early on
Googs and Marbury
Then Brandon, Smith and Wally.

Then they added Billups

And finally, the Spree Cassell team.


None of those guys are the on Pierce's level in terms of taking over at the end of the game, and that hurt KG's playoff winning chances. 

Duncan never needed that other player to do that. 

None of those players were as good as Duncan's teammates. Both in talent and in fit.

Googs was only high quality KGs first two years, and he forced KG to play the 3. Marbury isn't a player you could win with, I think that much is obvious. Terrell Brandon, what??? Wally was a very efficient scorer, but not much beyond that.

Brandon was a two time all star when he joined him.

Googs, Marbury and Wally all made all stars with him. 

Look what these players were doing when they were with him.



Parker in the last title was approaching Pierce's level.  Manu was never on Pierce's level. 

But who kept that team as a contender as Manu and Parker came into the league and became the players that they became? 

Talent is one thing, but how did they play WITH KG?


Brandon was 1 and half years away from being an All-Star and his career with Minny was injury plagued...he was never the same.

Marbury never made AS in Minny.

Compare to Duncan's teammates and how they played with Duncan?

Duncan has 6 other All-star teammates 2 from Robinson, 1 from Manu and 3 from Parker.

KG had only 3 other All-star teammates, 1 from Googs, 1 from Wally, and 1 from Sam Cassell.

Tell me how long did each of those teammates play with each superstar?

Duncan had the luxury to play with his mates for his entire career.

KG lost Googs after 3 seasons, lost Cassell after 2 seasons and played with Wally, as his 2nd best player which is clearly not enough for championship anything.

Meanwhile Duncan got to play with the Admiral for 6 seasons and is now going on 8 seasons with Manu and 9 seasons with Parker.

KG was never given that same luxury, nor the same consistency.

6 seasons with Wally as the next best player....that is god awful.

Actually, KG has had 6.  You forgot Pierce, Ray and Rondo. 


KG teammates had a combined 9 all-star appearances

Duncan teammates had a combined 6 all-star appearances. 

[LB3533]

Looking at who stepped up and lead his team to titles, Duncan 4, KG 1. 

And Duncan never had players as good as Pierce and Ray.  (Robinson was past his prime when they played together.  Still good defensively, but lost a step offensively.  Much like KG this year)

Look at their teammates. KG has had how many teams that were good enough to win a title, four? One with the T-Wolves and all of his years with the C's.(If we count this year)

Duncan has had a legit contending team around him far more often. One player has had 4 chances at a ring and the other has had at least 8.

Basketball is a team game.

I disagree.  He had many teams with talent. 

Which ones? Which talented second tier talents did KG have to play with?

Early on
Googs and Marbury
Then Brandon, Smith and Wally.

Then they added Billups

And finally, the Spree Cassell team.


None of those guys are the on Pierce's level in terms of taking over at the end of the game, and that hurt KG's playoff winning chances. 

Duncan never needed that other player to do that. 

None of those players were as good as Duncan's teammates. Both in talent and in fit.

Googs was only high quality KGs first two years, and he forced KG to play the 3. Marbury isn't a player you could win with, I think that much is obvious. Terrell Brandon, what??? Wally was a very efficient scorer, but not much beyond that.

Brandon was a two time all star when he joined him.

Googs, Marbury and Wally all made all stars with him. 

Look what these players were doing when they were with him.



Parker in the last title was approaching Pierce's level.  Manu was never on Pierce's level. 

But who kept that team as a contender as Manu and Parker came into the league and became the players that they became? 

Talent is one thing, but how did they play WITH KG?


Brandon was 1 and half years away from being an All-Star and his career with Minny was injury plagued...he was never the same.

Marbury never made AS in Minny.

Compare to Duncan's teammates and how they played with Duncan?

Duncan has 6 other All-star teammates 2 from Robinson, 1 from Manu and 3 from Parker.

KG had only 3 other All-star teammates, 1 from Googs, 1 from Wally, and 1 from Sam Cassell.

Tell me how long did each of those teammates play with each superstar?

Duncan had the luxury to play with his mates for his entire career.

KG lost Googs after 3 seasons, lost Cassell after 2 seasons and played with Wally, as his 2nd best player which is clearly not enough for championship anything.

Meanwhile Duncan got to play with the Admiral for 6 seasons and is now going on 8 seasons with Manu and 9 seasons with Parker.

KG was never given that same luxury, nor the same consistency.

6 seasons with Wally as the next best player....that is god awful.

Actually, KG has had 6.  You forgot Pierce, Ray and Rondo. 


KG teammates had a combined 9 all-star appearances

Duncan teammates had a combined 6 all-star appearances. 

What does that tell you?

When you give KG the caliber players like Ray and Pierce, KG can win titles just like the great Duncan.

Imagine KG playing with Pierce and Ray their entire careers like Duncan + Manu + Parker.

7 titles at the very least. (And it wouldn't matter if Sam Mitchell was coaching them)

[Fafnir]

This is beginning to remind of the chapter in Bill Simmons book where he argues that Wilt had just as good of team mates as Russell. He just added up all-star games.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=4229

This is a take down of that argument, I'd really love to see a similar analysis done for KG and TD.

[Fafnir]

Take a look at this article, it address the supporting cast quality of a ton of great players.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=3543

[wdleehi]

What does that tell you?

When you give KG the caliber players like Ray and Pierce, KG can win titles just like the great Duncan.

Imagine KG playing with Pierce and Ray their entire careers like Duncan + Manu + Parker.

7 titles at the very least. (And it wouldn't matter if Sam Mitchell was coaching them)

It tells me that the "KG never had any other good players around him" argument is wrong.  He did have talent around him.  That's why he could lead his teams to 50 win seasons over and over.  That's why when that talent left, he lead his teams to the lotto. 

Duncan lead his teams to more titles.

Duncan won titles without Parker and Manu.

[drza44]

Talent is one thing, but how did they play WITH KG?


Brandon was 1 and half years away from being an All-Star and his career with Minny was injury plagued...he was never the same.

Marbury never made AS in Minny.

Compare to Duncan's teammates and how they played with Duncan?

Duncan has 6 other All-star teammates 2 from Robinson, 1 from Manu and 3 from Parker.

KG had only 3 other All-star teammates, 1 from Googs, 1 from Wally, and 1 from Sam Cassell.

Tell me how long did each of those teammates play with each superstar?

Duncan had the luxury to play with his mates for his entire career.

KG lost Googs after 3 seasons, lost Cassell after 2 seasons and played with Wally, as his 2nd best player which is clearly not enough for championship anything.

Meanwhile Duncan got to play with the Admiral for 6 seasons and is now going on 8 seasons with Manu and 9 seasons with Parker.

KG was never given that same luxury, nor the same consistency.

6 seasons with Wally as the next best player....that is god awful.

Actually, KG has had 6.  You forgot Pierce, Ray and Rondo. 


KG teammates had a combined 9 all-star appearances

Duncan teammates had a combined 6 all-star appearances. 

Could there be a less useful way to look at this?  KG had 2 seasons with the Celtics, but according to your logic the All Stars from that 2-year window should be averaged across the other 13 years as well?  Even you have to admit that doesn't make sense.

As I pointed out earlier in the thread, KG played one full season with Googs and Marbury when KG was 20 and Marbury was 19, and they led the Wolves to the most success in franchise history at the time.

Wally was the only "All Star" that KG played with between 1997 and 2003, and he was a 1-time flukish selection whose on-court impact never lived up to an All-Star tag.  Nevertheless, over this period KG led the Wolves to several 50-plus win seasons.

KG then had less than 1 full season (2003-04) with Sam Cassell, who was never an All Star in his 16-year career outside of that one healthy year next to KG.  With Cassell, the closest to a legit All Star that KG played with in his career pre-Boston, he led the team to the #1 seed in the stacked West and the conference finals before injuries decimated the team.

KG then played with garbage from 2004 to 2007.

Finally, KG comes to Boston with good teammates, and the team averages 64 wins over 2 seasons with a championship and a KG-injury derailed a possible second.

Contrast that with Duncan, who played with some combination of The Admiral, Ginobili and Parker over the entirety of his 13-year career.  There was a short period where Robinson was fading and Manu/Parker were ramping up, but even then the team was full of a combo of productive vets and talented young players that filled specific roles in the excellently coached Popovich system. 

Now, regardless of what conclusion you might draw about KG or Duncan or their teams, the above is a MUCH more revealing and accurate way to look at their situations than adding up the All Star appearances from years 13 and 14 of KG's career and projecting it over the previous decade-plus like you can get late-career extra credit.

[LB3533]

What does that tell you?

When you give KG the caliber players like Ray and Pierce, KG can win titles just like the great Duncan.

Imagine KG playing with Pierce and Ray their entire careers like Duncan + Manu + Parker.

7 titles at the very least. (And it wouldn't matter if Sam Mitchell was coaching them)

It tells me that the "KG never had any other good players around him" argument is wrong.  He did have talent around him.  That's why he could lead his teams to 50 win seasons over and over.  That's why when that talent left, he lead his teams to the lotto. 

Duncan lead his teams to more titles.

Duncan won titles without Parker and Manu.

Yeah Duncan won a shortened season title and another title with one of the 50 greatest NBA players of all time, without Manu and Parker. (Huge accomplishment)

And yes Garnett had talent around him, but it wasn't good enough talent to be considered championship caliber.

Anyone who thinks of putting Terrell Brandon in the same breath as Tony Parker....is delusional and I don't even think Parker is that good.

I'm not sure what you're referring to but when Googs left Minny for Phoenix KG and the T-wolves never went to the lottery until 2004-2005 and even then they still had Cassell and Wally world on the team.

When "all that good talent" really left, KG was left with Ricky Davis and Mark Blount....lottery was the obvious destination.

[jdpapa3]

I think they're dead even, but it's interesting to me how KG has gone 4-1 against Timmy since he got here.

Per minute stats, advanced stats, and the eyeball test don't produce a clear winner.

Ginobili and Parker are far better than any of the Minnesota teammates KG has ever had.

[silverandblack_davis]

Hey guys,

Spurs fan here. Didn't have time to look at everything but I've read most of the arguments.

Used to be completely biased for Duncan but seeing some of the points raised, it's just really a hard read to decide who's better. I think it's also because both players' games and leadership qualities are so much different - KG is flashier while Duncan is more reserved.

I guess in the end, it will depend on what type of basketball fan you are - if you like showing a lot of passion and dunking, then KG is your guy. If you prefer quiet leadership and a fundamental approach to the game, Tim it is.

And, the more I think about it, I wish KG, instead of Shaq, had been Duncan's "rival" in terms of rings. It feels right that way.