Start Baby, over Kevin

[Fafnir]

Also, does KG coming off the bench meant that he will never play with Rondo, Perk, Pierce and Ray?  I would imagine that would be your 5 at the end of every game.

KG is a more effective player than BBD. Why would you want to play less of KG?

KG also isn't the offensive spark plug that typically thrives off the bench late. You want to start the game out strong defensively, KG can't just come in and be a "stopper". He's too good of a player for that.

Moving KG out of the starting lineup makes no sense, would hurt our rhythm, and hurt the team overall.

I don't think anyone offering support for this idea said anything about KG playing "less".

Care to explain how putting a weaker starting unit will help the team then?

Remember chemistry and rhythm matter, and only 17 games remain.

[Spilling Green Dye]

      Min    Off      Def     +/-
Davis 361   1.09  1.15  -39   08-09 Reg season
Davis 276   1.09  1.05  +24   08-09 Playoffs
Davis 38.8  0.96  1.16  -12   09-10 Reg Season

KG    1074  1.11  0.98  +260  08-09 Reg Season
KG    876.3 1.10  0.98  +219  09-10 Reg Season

82games.com stats that drza44 is referring to.  These stats are Davis/KG with the Rondo/R. Allen/Pierce/Perkins.

Exactly I'm not for the move because I don't think it would help but, using +/- doesn't seem like an appropriate barometer unless BBD was playing with the first unit.

You guys aren't looking at +/- all too accurately all the times.  Also, I've pretty much addressed this exact concern on the first two pages of posts, so I'm not sure why a more broad and less accurate statistical approach is being brought up.  Therefore, I'd like to quote from my previous two posts so they can actually be read:

"According to his 82games profile this entire season, Out of all 21 unique on/off court categories (I did not count the 5 "total" or "net" categories, since they would be redundant), The Celtics are WORSE having Davis on the court in 18 of those categories, EQUAL having Davis on the court in 2 of those categories, and BETTER in only 1 category (offensive rebounding)."

"I'm not sure if its even worth arguing with all of you Davis lovers, but at least try and check out the following:

http://www.82games.com/0910/0910BOS.HTM

Garnett is our most productive player.  Glen Davis is one of our least productive.  You think its because other players are holding back Davis?  Or that KG is benefitting from playing with the starters?  Go to the 5-man units:

http://www.82games.com/0910/0910BOS2.HTM

You'll clearly see that when KG alone is replaced by someone else, the team is not nearly as good.

And quite frankly, KG looks better NOW than he has most of the season, so those stats are an understatement."

The net point swing isn't 20 like was stated earlier.  It's closer to 13 or 14.  But again, take a look at lineups that have ONLY KG REPLACED, and you'll see a dramatic decrease in overall offensive and defensive production.  Therefore, it's not just that KG plays with the starters..

[Birdbrain]

      Min    Off      Def     +/-
Davis 361   1.09  1.15  -39   08-09 Reg season
Davis 276   1.09  1.05  +24   08-09 Playoffs
Davis 38.8  0.96  1.16  -12   09-10 Reg Season

KG    1074  1.11  0.98  +260  08-09 Reg Season
KG    876.3 1.10  0.98  +219  09-10 Reg Season

82games.com stats that drza44 is referring to.  These stats are Davis/KG with the Rondo/R. Allen/Pierce/Perkins.

Exactly I'm not for the move because I don't think it would help but, using +/- doesn't seem like an appropriate barometer unless BBD was playing with the first unit.

You guys aren't looking at +/- all too accurately all the times.  Also, I've pretty much addressed this exact concern on the first two pages of posts, so I'm not sure why a more broad and less accurate statistical approach is being brought up.  Therefore, I'd like to quote from my previous two posts so they can actually be read:

"According to his 82games profile this entire season, Out of all 21 unique on/off court categories (I did not count the 5 "total" or "net" categories, since they would be redundant), The Celtics are WORSE having Davis on the court in 18 of those categories, EQUAL having Davis on the court in 2 of those categories, and BETTER in only 1 category (offensive rebounding)."

"I'm not sure if its even worth arguing with all of you Davis lovers, but at least try and check out the following:

http://www.82games.com/0910/0910BOS.HTM

Garnett is our most productive player.  Glen Davis is one of our least productive.  You think its because other players are holding back Davis?  Or that KG is benefitting from playing with the starters?  Go to the 5-man units:

http://www.82games.com/0910/0910BOS2.HTM

You'll clearly see that when KG alone is replaced by someone else, the team is not nearly as good.

And quite frankly, KG looks better NOW than he has most of the season, so those stats are an understatement."

The net point swing isn't 20 like was stated earlier.  It's closer to 13 or 14.  But again, take a look at lineups that have ONLY KG REPLACED, and you'll see a dramatic decrease in overall offensive and defensive production.  Therefore, it's not just that KG plays with the starters..

Right it's not all that but, mostly which is why the stat is useless.  And I agree since it's not all that he should stay starting.

Sorry not useless less than useful.

[wiley]

      Min    Off      Def     +/-
Davis 361   1.09  1.15  -39   08-09 Reg season
Davis 276   1.09  1.05  +24   08-09 Playoffs
Davis 38.8  0.96  1.16  -12   09-10 Reg Season

KG    1074  1.11  0.98  +260  08-09 Reg Season
KG    876.3 1.10  0.98  +219  09-10 Reg Season

82games.com stats that drza44 is referring to.  These stats are Davis/KG with the Rondo/R. Allen/Pierce/Perkins.

Exactly I'm not for the move because I don't think it would help but, using +/- doesn't seem like an appropriate barometer unless BBD was playing with the first unit.

You guys aren't looking at +/- all too accurately all the times.  Also, I've pretty much addressed this exact concern on the first two pages of posts, so I'm not sure why a more broad and less accurate statistical approach is being brought up.  Therefore, I'd like to quote from my previous two posts so they can actually be read:

"According to his 82games profile this entire season, Out of all 21 unique on/off court categories (I did not count the 5 "total" or "net" categories, since they would be redundant), The Celtics are WORSE having Davis on the court in 18 of those categories, EQUAL having Davis on the court in 2 of those categories, and BETTER in only 1 category (offensive rebounding)."

"I'm not sure if its even worth arguing with all of you Davis lovers, but at least try and check out the following:

http://www.82games.com/0910/0910BOS.HTM

Garnett is our most productive player.  Glen Davis is one of our least productive.  You think its because other players are holding back Davis?  Or that KG is benefitting from playing with the starters?  Go to the 5-man units:

http://www.82games.com/0910/0910BOS2.HTM

You'll clearly see that when KG alone is replaced by someone else, the team is not nearly as good.

And quite frankly, KG looks better NOW than he has most of the season, so those stats are an understatement."

The net point swing isn't 20 like was stated earlier.  It's closer to 13 or 14.  But again, take a look at lineups that have ONLY KG REPLACED, and you'll see a dramatic decrease in overall offensive and defensive production.  Therefore, it's not just that KG plays with the starters..

I didn't think this discussion was about who was better between KG and Glen.  Of course it's KG by a landslide.  But now and then teams bring great players in as 6th men, ala Kevin McHale.....This converation would not be happening if KG hadn't hurt himself last season, and I agree that despite his injury he's still better than Glen, but to me that's not the issue here.  

We'd still play the better player(KG) more minutes, but we might also get Glen off and running and into that zone where is energy is really beneficial to the team....

I'm sure KG will be the starter moving forward, and that's fine and is late in the year for changes, etc...I just wanted to argue that the roof would not cave in if such a move were made...

People seem to be suggesting that the roof, would in fact cave in.....

[droopdog7]

I am in utter disbelief that this idea is still being considered well into page 6.  Utter disbelief.

[BballTim]

 The truth is Baby averaged 17.5 Points per game in last Year's Playoffs, now can anyone tell me that Kevin is capable of doing that this year? No he can't.

 Now Kevin is five inches taller, and much longer etc. But he's not an athlete anymore, and that's what made him  great over his whole career.

 Now you can argue about what bigs play best together, I really don't care, I think we should give Baby a real solid look at being are P.F. of the future, and I also think Kevin could be great off the bench. A Combo of Garnett, Wallace, Nate, and Daniels is pretty good. And maybe KG would fair better against the back ups, Bottom line, right now Baby needs more minutes than Kevin on an average night. Baby will put up bigger numbers and play with more energy than Kevin as of right now.    Thoughts...

  Just for fun, I'll point out that Baby didn't average 17.5 a game, he averaged 15.8 and about 5.6 rebounds a game. Just for added fun, I'll point out that we get the same number of ppg and one more rebound per game when we start Sheed this year.

[Spilling Green Dye]

I am in utter disbelief that this idea is still being considered well into page 6.  Utter disbelief.

I know lol.  I'm done making my case in this thread after this post.  To me it's absolutely insane to consider any of the following:

-Starting Davis over KG for ANY reason
-Expecting or hoping Davis is the starting PF in future years.

[mmbaby]

I would not start BBD over KG.
But I do believe BBD will be a starter in the future for a team, not necessarily this one.
Concerning the stats, etc., when you remember that BBD didn't play at the start of the season for what..27 games, the stats are skewwed. I think he's playing much greater than the stats might suggest, as some here have said.
I can also see with my own eyes his points (4 games in double digits this month-half of March), his assists, rebounds and defensive effectiveness.

[Andy Jick]

professional sports is as much about (if not more so) managing egos as they are about talent.  anyone who thinks that KG taking a "demotion" would have a positive impact on a team already questioning their ability is crazy at best...  this team is already screwed up in the head as it is...

Some of us think that changes in the starting lineup can be made for reasons other than to promote or demote players.

...and some who are players might have a different take on this.  KG is not the type of player to sit for anyone...and I wouldn't blame him.  there is NO need to start davis...none whatsoever.  sometimes people just want to make change for the sake of change...because apparently we needed another thread here due to boredom (or whatever).  but this is 6 pages worth of comedy...

[nyceltsfan]

professional sports is as much about (if not more so) managing egos as they are about talent.  anyone who thinks that KG taking a "demotion" would have a positive impact on a team already questioning their ability is crazy at best...  this team is already screwed up in the head as it is...

Some of us think that changes in the starting lineup can be made for reasons other than to promote or demote players.

...and some who are players might have a different take on this.  KG is not the type of player to sit for anyone...and I wouldn't blame him.  there is NO need to start davis...none whatsoever.  sometimes people just want to make change for the sake of change...because apparently we needed another thread here due to boredom (or whatever).  but this is 6 pages worth of comedy...

Andy, let me ask you this...
Are you one of the posters that believes that this team will win it all the way they are currently playing?

I believe that the reason people are asking to make a change is to give us a chance to win it all since the current lineup (and more importantly rotations) is just not working.  We are not changing the coach before the end of the season, so we have to work with the coach's mindset, which is to replace the whole starting lineup with the whole second unit.  If that's the case, wouldn't you want a great 6th man?

[droopdog7]

I am in utter disbelief that this idea is still being considered well into page 6.  Utter disbelief.

I know lol.  I'm done making my case in this thread after this post.  To me it's absolutely insane to consider any of the following:

-Starting Davis over KG for ANY reason
-Expecting or hoping Davis is the starting PF in future years.

Agree wholeheartedly with both points.  That doesn't mean that Davis might not start for a team some day.  But that will only happen on a horrible team (I mean, horrible).  And it will not happen beause Davis has gotten any better.  He pretty much is what he is; a limited player physically who can't do anything particularly well. 

In fact, I would say that Davis has a better chance of being a 12th man (or out of the league) in five years than he has of being a starter.

[dark_lord]

I am in utter disbelief that this idea is still being considered well into page 6.  Utter disbelief.

i hear u!!!!  im in disbelief that it isnt only this long, but that its actually being debated.

i guess its thinking outside the box......waaaaaaaaay outside the box 

[mmbaby]

I am in utter disbelief that this idea is still being considered well into page 6.  Utter disbelief.

I know lol.  I'm done making my case in this thread after this post.  To me it's absolutely insane to consider any of the following:

-Starting Davis over KG for ANY reason
-Expecting or hoping Davis is the starting PF in future years.

Agree wholeheartedly with both points.  That doesn't mean that Davis might not start for a team some day.  But that will only happen on a horrible team (I mean, horrible).  And it will not happen beause Davis has gotten any better.  He pretty much is what he is; a limited player physically who can't do anything particularly well. 

In fact, I would say that Davis has a better chance of being a 12th man (or out of the league) in five years than he has of being a starter.

TOTALLY disagree with this. You must not be watching the games lately. BBD is producing!
But I also want to say that BBD will not start over KG. It just wouldn't make any sense at this point. KG's game has improved in the last few weeks tremendously and he is really looking good out there - almost like his Championship self.

[droopdog7]

I am in utter disbelief that this idea is still being considered well into page 6.  Utter disbelief.

I know lol.  I'm done making my case in this thread after this post.  To me it's absolutely insane to consider any of the following:

-Starting Davis over KG for ANY reason
-Expecting or hoping Davis is the starting PF in future years.

Agree wholeheartedly with both points.  That doesn't mean that Davis might not start for a team some day.  But that will only happen on a horrible team (I mean, horrible).  And it will not happen beause Davis has gotten any better.  He pretty much is what he is; a limited player physically who can't do anything particularly well. 

In fact, I would say that Davis has a better chance of being a 12th man (or out of the league) in five years than he has of being a starter.

TOTALLY disagree with this. You must not be watching the games lately. BBD is producing!
But I also want to say that BBD will not start over KG. It just wouldn't make any sense at this point. KG's game has improved in the last few weeks tremendously and he is really looking good out there - almost like his Championship self.

BBD's biggest strength right now is that he is hustling.  But, 1) he is hustling because he literally is fighting for playing time and 2) because he doesn't have to play starters minutes.  I am not sure how well his game would translate as a full time starter (expcet that I know he doesn't do anything prticularly well).  And before anyone mentions last year, other teams basically for daring him to step up.  Good for BBD that he did (to some extent), but if any team so much as wasted time focusing on stopping BBD, it would not be difficult. 

In the NBA, players weaknesses tend to be exposed in the long run.  And it wouldn't take long to expose BBD as a starter.

[Tai]

This topic mad PLamb leave.

True story.