Marquis & Pierce (swap)

[Toine43]

Nope, for several reasons:

- Pierce is the captain, the heart and soul of the team, and needs to start.

- When he's "on" he's a catalyst in the early going and really helps to get the offense running during those first few minutes of the game when both teams are feeling each other out. He does this to a greater degree in big games; hopefully we'll see that out of him come playoff time.

- Despite his recent offensive struggles Pierce is still the most consistent wing defender the Celtics have, and needs to be out there with the first unit so he can guard the LeBrons of the world. Marquis was particularly poor today guarding LeBron.

- I don't love the idea of Perk, Rondo, and Marquis all out there at once. The Cs become real easy to defend with 3 guys out there who can't shoot.

- It's not like Pierce isn't going to finish, so why bother. And you can't justify your new-look first unit as a "defensive unit" when Marquis has played like crap on defense lately.

- As Van Gundy pointed out today, Pierce isn't himself and the Cs need to get back to him as the focal point of the offense. If they're going to win Banner 18 it's going to be first and foremost because of Paul. And the way to get Pierce right certainly isn't to bench him.

[Who]

Just stop playing all reserve players second units.

Then there is no need for Pierce to go to the bench.

I think Doc believes that Rondo/Perk are still most effective as role players playing off the big 3 and the big 3, esp. KG, are too old/fragile to maximize Rondo/Perk and still chip in to help out the bench.  

So Doc doesn't want to waste Rondo/Perk in ineffective minutes with bench players (less so the case for Rondo this year) and he doesn't want to exhaust his Big 3 trying keep everybody afloat.

So he takes all of his medicine at once with the 5-man bench, and gets it out of the way, so he can keep his favorite line-up rested and intact.

Rondo + Perkins have both been very effective when KG and/or Pierce have been out injured though. They've consistently raised their performance level without those guys.

I struggle to see that being one of Doc's reasons. Maybe he does think that .. but I would be surprised.

I fully agree about the final part though -- that he wants to keep the starting five together for as long as possible in every game. To try and keep his best unit on the floor.

[Rtpas11]

If Pierce is the Heart n' Soul of this team we need an immediate transplant or some type of reincarnating, because we ain't going no where playing like this.

If not Marquis then start Tony, as long as Pierce doesn't start this team will be fine. Pierce not starting doesn't mean he won't logg a lot of minutes or finish the game. It just means he won't start, which will result in Rondo upping his level of play.

[pearljammer10]

To quote the OP (roughly) Imagine a lineup of Nate/Finley/Pierce/Glen/and Rasheed....

hey thats great but i can think of a much better lineup. Its Rondo/Ray/Pierce/KG/Perkins

[Vermont Green]

I know we are all grasping at straws to try and get something to snap them out of it but this straw should stay in the chocolate milk.

I would start Nate over Rondo before I started Daniels over Pierce.

[looseball]

Way, way wrong. Sorry, but you don't bench your Captain ... bad, bad idea, both energy-wise and for the emotional health of the team ... it would do irreparable damage to his psyche and the team's ... this is the guy that KG looks up to for leadership, let alone the rest of the team! In addition, Pierce scored 18 points today with 3 rebounds and 4 assists ... Quis scored zero with 1 rebound and no assists.

How about captain Jason Varitek?

[Bahku]

Way, way wrong. Sorry, but you don't bench your Captain ... bad, bad idea, both energy-wise and for the emotional health of the team ... it would do irreparable damage to his psyche and the team's ... this is the guy that KG looks up to for leadership, let alone the rest of the team! In addition, Pierce scored 18 points today with 3 rebounds and 4 assists ... Quis scored zero with 1 rebound and no assists.

How about captain Jason Varitek?

Well, this is not baseball we're talking about, but I didn't agree with that decision either. However, Paul is not only the Captain, he is the leading scorer, a many-time All-Star, a Hall-Of-Famer, 1st on the team in 3-point ave., 2nd in free-throw %, tied for 3rd in total rebounds, 2nd in assists, 2nd in steals, 4th in blocks, and on and on. And just what qualifies Marquis to replace a guy providing these numbers and qualities?!?

[looseball]

Way, way wrong. Sorry, but you don't bench your Captain ... bad, bad idea, both energy-wise and for the emotional health of the team ... it would do irreparable damage to his psyche and the team's ... this is the guy that KG looks up to for leadership, let alone the rest of the team! In addition, Pierce scored 18 points today with 3 rebounds and 4 assists ... Quis scored zero with 1 rebound and no assists.

How about captain Jason Varitek?

Well, this is not baseball we're talking about, but I didn't agree with that decision either. However, Paul is not only the Captain, he is the leading scorer, a many-time All-Star, a Hall-Of-Famer, 1st on the team in 3-point ave., 2nd in free-throw %, tied for 3rd in total rebounds, 2nd in assists, 2nd in steals, 4th in blocks, and on and on. And just what qualifies Marquis to replace a guy providing these numbers and qualities?!?

When you say "replace a guy", it seems like you are talking about baseball, where , if you're not in the starting lineup, you probably won't be playing that day. 

I think the importance of "starting" in basketball is over-rated.  How many minutes you play is much more important.  Varejao didn't start for Cleveland, but he still played 30 minutes, and was a major force in the game.  He was their number two star next to LeBron.

[Rtpas11]

My point exactly! I'm not talking about replacing Pierce, i'm talking about putting him in a better situation to be effective. Bottom line is, Rondo cancells Pierce's game.

for example:
Lebron = difficult to double team because he has a shooting point in Mo Williams, and shooting guard in Anthony Parker. Who do you leave to double Lebron?

Camello = difficult to double team, because he has Chauncy Billups, and Aaron Afflalo to pass to.

Pierce = easy to double and keep ineffective because he has 1 shooter to pass to in Ray Allen (whom teams will stick glued to). Pierce other option is Rondo (whom teams will love to see shoot) but he won't and can't. Teams rather double off Rondo and trap Pierce (making it easy to defend the C's) and you wonder why we have offensive woes. Rondo not shooting = Pierce working harder and struggling, 3 seconds being called more on Perkins and K.G. anticipating rebounds, and shot clock violations from ball sticking, turnovers in general, and opposing teams scoring at will, while Doc is still screaming its our DEFENSE!!!??? I'm sorry but someone's terribly blind here. Doc needs to go see a Doc! Just try it, and if this don't work try something else. Being reluctant to change is only going to get Doc fired. Make a change Doc! Make a change!

[PLamb]

My point exactly! I'm not talking about replacing Pierce, i'm talking about putting him in a better situation to be effective. Bottom line is, Rondo cancells Pierce's game.

for example:
Lebron = difficult to double team because he has a shooting point in Mo Williams, and shooting guard in Anthony Parker. Who do you leave to double Lebron?

Camello = difficult to double team, because he has Chauncy Billups, and Aaron Afflalo to pass to.

Pierce = easy to double and keep ineffective because he has 1 shooter to pass to in Ray Allen (whom teams will stick glued to). Pierce other option is Rondo (whom teams will love to see shoot) but he won't and can't. Teams rather double off Rondo and trap Pierce (making it easy to defend the C's) and you wonder why we have offensive woes. Rondo not shooting = Pierce working harder and struggling, 3 seconds being called more on Perkins and K.G. anticipating rebounds, and shot clock violations from ball sticking, turnovers in general, and opposing teams scoring at will, while Doc is still screaming its our DEFENSE!!!??? I'm sorry but someone's terribly blind here. Doc needs to go see a Doc! Just try it, and if this don't work try something else. Being reluctant to change is only going to get Doc fired. Make a change Doc! Make a change!

1. KG is the second shooter that Pierce can pass to

2. Pierce is no longer being double teamed

3. KG does not anticipate offensive rebounds he is usually found running in the other direction once a shot goes up. Rondo averages more offensive rebounds that KG

4. Perkins three seconds violations are the fault of Perk and no one else


I understand you are trying to make a point but shouldn't your rationalizations be grounded somewhere in the reality of what is actually happening

I mean Pierce's highest +/- per minute occurs when he is on the floor with the rest of the starters and has a bunch of negative or near zero +/- per minute stas when playing with bench players

[Rtpas11]

My point exactly! I'm not talking about replacing Pierce, i'm talking about putting him in a better situation to be effective. Bottom line is, Rondo cancells Pierce's game.

for example:
Lebron = difficult to double team because he has a shooting point in Mo Williams, and shooting guard in Anthony Parker. Who do you leave to double Lebron?

Camello = difficult to double team, because he has Chauncy Billups, and Aaron Afflalo to pass to.

Pierce = easy to double and keep ineffective because he has 1 shooter to pass to in Ray Allen (whom teams will stick glued to). Pierce other option is Rondo (whom teams will love to see shoot) but he won't and can't. Teams rather double off Rondo and trap Pierce (making it easy to defend the C's) and you wonder why we have offensive woes. Rondo not shooting = Pierce working harder and struggling, 3 seconds being called more on Perkins and K.G. anticipating rebounds, and shot clock violations from ball sticking, turnovers in general, and opposing teams scoring at will, while Doc is still screaming its our DEFENSE!!!??? I'm sorry but someone's terribly blind here. Doc needs to go see a Doc! Just try it, and if this don't work try something else. Being reluctant to change is only going to get Doc fired. Make a change Doc! Make a change!

1. KG is the second shooter that Pierce can pass to

2. Pierce is no longer being double teamed

3. KG does not anticipate offensive rebounds he is usually found running in the other direction once a shot goes up. Rondo averages more offensive rebounds that KG

4. Perkins three seconds violations are the fault of Perk and no one else


I understand you are trying to make a point but shouldn't your rationalizations be grounded somewhere in the reality of what is actually happening

I mean Pierce's highest +/- per minute occurs when he is on the floor with the rest of the starters and has a bunch of negative or near zero +/- per minute stas when playing with bench players

point taken!

If K.G. is the 2nd shooter Pierce could pass to, then u see my point is proven. Rondo our point guard/perimeter player is suppose to be the 2nd shooter, not K.G. our power-forward/low post player. This is the reason the C's offensive rebounding is so poorish. We have arguably our tallest player and best rebounder on the team playing on the wing. K.G. #'s have plummeted not only because he's on a better team than the T-Wolves days, but because he's forced to be more of a finesse shooter now. K.G. had the Marbury's (he said it himself... "Steph was the outside guy, and I was the inside guy. It hurt me a lot to see him leave".)

Perkins 3 second calling is not his fault. Rondo holds the ball for too long trying to pass to either Pierce posted, or Ray Allen running through screens for a catch and shoot. While this is happening Perkins is actually the best option to pass to, because teams won't dare leave Paul or Ray to help defend Rondo on the perimeter where he's not effective. They play off him by dropping down closer to K.G. who now has it difficult to catch the ball or get a shot attempt.

So where are we....

K.G. = Has 1 defender on him and also a "cheat defender" (Rondo's man)

Pierce = Has 1 defender on him and also a "cheat defender" (Rondo's man)

Ray = Has 1 defender on him and also a "cheat defender" (Rondo's man)

Rondo = Has 1 "cheat defender" (his own man!!!), which sets him up wide open for a shot.

Perkins = Has 1 defender on him and also a "cheat defender" (Rondo's man), the difference is Perkins is not much of an attention grabber like the rest of the big 3. His quickness, height and athletic ability though kills is opportunity when he's open or on a 1 on 1, but his strength and catching mitts makes up for it.

Bottom line is this... in order for Rajon to be effective and help this team win he has to call for a high screen n' roll 90% of the time on the court. The other 10% should be fast break situations. High screen n' rolls for Rondo would create havoc for opponents after Rondo has gotten by his defender. The high screen and roll should be set by either K.G. or preferably Perkins. Perkins man who's a center will have to cover Rondo who Rondo will beat easily with his quickness. When a team sees that Rondo on their center is no match they'll have to bring help from 1 of their wing defenders, leaving either Pierce or Ray Allen wide open for a shot or drive. That's it! Doc Rivers, its not that hard!

[el.celta]

Garnett was the injury that you love enough, that not the same.
Perkins you're not giving many options balls. perkins average 63% of the preferences field ... team did not get far in the playoffs.
accept that Nate should play more when Rondo, Ray and Garnett.
because there will be accepted by Haywood Butler and Ray Allen?
look like you are on Mavericks.13-2 .. while celtics 18-19.uff

[ManUp]

All Pierce has to do is move without the ball.

He never really makes himself available for easy baskets.

[FatjohnReturns]

Watching the Knicks game tonight I have to agree. Paul got those early 2 fouls and Marquis comes in and fits in nicely.The ball movement is actually better with Marquis in there with the starters.

When Pierce did come in with the bench it was  a good mix.  Rasheed/Baby/Pierce/Finley/Nate is a really solid group. They defended and rebounded well. Pierce also felt free to take a majority of the shots.

Basketball chemistry is important too bad Pierce's pride wouldn't allow him to come in with the bench. TP to the OP though. nice insight

[Tai]

My point exactly! I'm not talking about replacing Pierce, i'm talking about putting him in a better situation to be effective. Bottom line is, Rondo cancells Pierce's game.

for example:
Lebron = difficult to double team because he has a shooting point in Mo Williams, and shooting guard in Anthony Parker. Who do you leave to double Lebron?

Camello = difficult to double team, because he has Chauncy Billups, and Aaron Afflalo to pass to.

Pierce = easy to double and keep ineffective because he has 1 shooter to pass to in Ray Allen (whom teams will stick glued to). Pierce other option is Rondo (whom teams will love to see shoot) but he won't and can't. Teams rather double off Rondo and trap Pierce (making it easy to defend the C's) and you wonder why we have offensive woes. Rondo not shooting = Pierce working harder and struggling, 3 seconds being called more on Perkins and K.G. anticipating rebounds, and shot clock violations from ball sticking, turnovers in general, and opposing teams scoring at will, while Doc is still screaming its our DEFENSE!!!??? I'm sorry but someone's terribly blind here. Doc needs to go see a Doc! Just try it, and if this don't work try something else. Being reluctant to change is only going to get Doc fired. Make a change Doc! Make a change!

Sorry, I liked the Baby over Kevin topic better. Not much better, but at least Baby has a reputation IN BOSTON (not so much anywhere else, to be honest) to shoot. Daniels clearly can't even do that, and that's not what we even brought him for. The Celtics DID want BBD to develop a jump shot.

Long story short, you seem short-sighted with this topic, Rtpas. And like the guy who made the Baby over KG topic, you just give fantasy people a bad name. It doesn't even matter if you are one or not, but that's who I, and most likely many others could compare you to.

Short story long, using your logic, Rtpas, I could argue that Ray Allen should be benched in favor of Daniels too for the same reasons you say Pierce should. And, at least with starting over Ray Allen, Daniels can play the 2 which he's a better fit for than if he had to play the 3 if he started over Pierce.

Truth is, though, if Daniels starts over Pierce, than due to Daniels' inability to shoot, Ray Allen starts having all the problems you claim Pierce would have. People play off of Rondo AND Daniels, and Ray Allen can barely get open. But, surely, Ray Allen would benefit from being able to play alongside shooters like Nate and Finley, right? And you know what? Finley would still be able to play the 3 as opposed to forced to play the 2 if Pierce was on the bench.

You claimed Doc would get fired if he didn't show change. I don't think Danny wants THIS type of change, though. There's probably a better case for Doc getting fired if he benched Pierce to make him a "Super 6th Man" when the truth is that the guy that would replace Pierce in the starting lineup has clearly been recognized as maybe the 7th or 8th man at best.