An aspect of this team that we may be overlooking...

[ssspence]

This is not an athleticism thing, it is a focus and effort thing.  The C's were not beaten last night because they were slow, or couldn't jump.  They were beaten because they were only competing for maybe 3/4 of the time.  And this is the problem they have had all season.  They would go hard for 20 seconds, and then let up for 5 seconds.  They would get a stop, and then not box out.  They would beat their man to the spot, but then not get their hands up, or rotate to the wide open guy on the weak side.  They would get a decent shot at the basket, and then forget to get back on defense.

The 'mental lapse' excuse is wearing thin. Yes, they're mentally soft. But at some point -- when you're dominated night after night in key aspects of the game -- the physical capabilities of the team have to come into question.

I left the game midway through the 3rd quarter, disgusted. Last Cs game I'll see this year. But I saw enough of it to know that the Griz were faster, quicker, healthier, stonger, more agile and in better shape than the Cs.

Pierce's injuries have left him out of shape (not like conditioning was his strong suit). Davis' injuries have left him out of shape(not like conditioning was his strong suit). Rasheed is healthy and highly out of shape. I've seen 75 year old men run with more stability than Garnett. That's not mental, it's physical. Add the mental lapses you mention and you get the embarassment and frustration we're all feeling at the moment.

Where were these physical limitations when the team looked like it could challenge the all time wins record for a single season?

Seriously? When did this team look like it could challenge the all time wins record for a single season? Because guys in the locker room lied to themselves about it? This team has NEVER looked that good on the court. They squeeze out ugly wins when they're lucky enough to do so.

Looks, this type of talk is just excuses to buffer the bitter pill that the Cs -- due to roster structure, age, conditioning and health -- are not as capable as other teams.

They're mentally tough in 1st halfs but not in second halfs? They're bored? These are just excuses. This team is not physically capable of competing for 48 minutes for 82 games anymore. They get physically dominated around the basket -- shoots, blocks, rebounds, all of it. They're a jump shooting team leaving the ball on the front rim shot after shot.

It's a bitter pill. The sooner it's swallowed, the shorter the misery will last.

At one point the team was 23-5, and leading the NBA in point differential by a wide margin.  To suggest that this team couldn't compete all season long is simply not accurate.

That would be a 67 win pace, assuming they'd managed to stay on it. Considering that they had a better record last year at a similar time of year, I'm not sure how any fan would convince themself this team was going to challenge the bulls record.

[ssspence]

I feel its more health & mental that athletic.  PP has been a step slow for awhile as has KG.  There's are health related, sheed who does play good defense can also look like he doesn't care.  Rondo who I love will go from dominating all aspects to matador defense.  Even at 50 years old ray has shown to still be as athletic as most players he goes against.

Health = althetic. Separating the two is pointless.

[ssspence]

This is not an athleticism thing, it is a focus and effort thing.  The C's were not beaten last night because they were slow, or couldn't jump.  They were beaten because they were only competing for maybe 3/4 of the time.  And this is the problem they have had all season.  They would go hard for 20 seconds, and then let up for 5 seconds.  They would get a stop, and then not box out.  They would beat their man to the spot, but then not get their hands up, or rotate to the wide open guy on the weak side.  They would get a decent shot at the basket, and then forget to get back on defense.

The 'mental lapse' excuse is wearing thin. Yes, they're mentally soft. But at some point -- when you're dominated night after night in key aspects of the game -- the physical capabilities of the team have to come into question.

I left the game midway through the 3rd quarter, disgusted. Last Cs game I'll see this year. But I saw enough of it to know that the Griz were faster, quicker, healthier, stonger, more agile and in better shape than the Cs.

Pierce's injuries have left him out of shape (not like conditioning was his strong suit). Davis' injuries have left him out of shape(not like conditioning was his strong suit). Rasheed is healthy and highly out of shape. I've seen 75 year old men run with more stability than Garnett. That's not mental, it's physical. Add the mental lapses you mention and you get the embarassment and frustration we're all feeling at the moment.

Where were these physical limitations when the team looked like it could challenge the all time wins record for a single season?

Seriously? When did this team look like it could challenge the all time wins record for a single season? Because guys in the locker room lied to themselves about it? This team has NEVER looked that good on the court. They squeeze out ugly wins when they're lucky enough to do so.

Looks, this type of talk is just excuses to buffer the bitter pill that the Cs -- due to roster structure, age, conditioning and health -- are not as capable as other teams.

They're mentally tough in 1st halfs but not in second halfs? They're bored? These are just excuses. This team is not physically capable of competing for 48 minutes for 82 games anymore. They get physically dominated around the basket -- shoots, blocks, rebounds, all of it. They're a jump shooting team leaving the ball on the front rim shot after shot.

It's a bitter pill. The sooner it's swallowed, the shorter the misery will last.

So what is your solution?

1) Stop lying to our collective self about their chances, 2) begin rebuilding before the window for any hope of success at it goes from 3-5 years to 10-15.

Number 2 likely involves consider a change in style that focuses more on Rondo's strengths, moving KG to center (since he can't be traded and can't play the 4 as effectively anymore) and getting value for Perk. 

[MBunge]

This is not an athleticism thing, it is a focus and effort thing.  The C's were not beaten last night because they were slow, or couldn't jump.  They were beaten because they were only competing for maybe 3/4 of the time.  And this is the problem they have had all season.  They would go hard for 20 seconds, and then let up for 5 seconds.  They would get a stop, and then not box out.  They would beat their man to the spot, but then not get their hands up, or rotate to the wide open guy on the weak side.  They would get a decent shot at the basket, and then forget to get back on defense.

The 'mental lapse' excuse is wearing thin. Yes, they're mentally soft. But at some point -- when you're dominated night after night in key aspects of the game -- the physical capabilities of the team have to come into question.

I left the game midway through the 3rd quarter, disgusted. Last Cs game I'll see this year. But I saw enough of it to know that the Griz were faster, quicker, healthier, stonger, more agile and in better shape than the Cs.

Pierce's injuries have left him out of shape (not like conditioning was his strong suit). Davis' injuries have left him out of shape(not like conditioning was his strong suit). Rasheed is healthy and highly out of shape. I've seen 75 year old men run with more stability than Garnett. That's not mental, it's physical. Add the mental lapses you mention and you get the embarassment and frustration we're all feeling at the moment.

Where were these physical limitations when the team looked like it could challenge the all time wins record for a single season?

Seriously? When did this team look like it could challenge the all time wins record for a single season? Because guys in the locker room lied to themselves about it? This team has NEVER looked that good on the court. They squeeze out ugly wins when they're lucky enough to do so.

Looks, this type of talk is just excuses to buffer the bitter pill that the Cs -- due to roster structure, age, conditioning and health -- are not as capable as other teams.

They're mentally tough in 1st halfs but not in second halfs? They're bored? These are just excuses. This team is not physically capable of competing for 48 minutes for 82 games anymore. They get physically dominated around the basket -- shoots, blocks, rebounds, all of it. They're a jump shooting team leaving the ball on the front rim shot after shot.

It's a bitter pill. The sooner it's swallowed, the shorter the misery will last.

At one point the team was 23-5, and leading the NBA in point differential by a wide margin.  To suggest that this team couldn't compete all season long is simply not accurate.

That would be a 67 win pace, assuming they'd managed to stay on it. Considering that they had a better record last year at a similar time of year, I'm not sure how any fan would convince themself this team was going to challenge the bulls record.

Oh for pete's sake.  The all-time win record is 72 games.  Being on pace to get within 5 games of that with over 50 games left in the season is obviously "challenging" the mark.

Mike

[MBunge]

This is not an athleticism thing, it is a focus and effort thing.  The C's were not beaten last night because they were slow, or couldn't jump.  They were beaten because they were only competing for maybe 3/4 of the time.  And this is the problem they have had all season.  They would go hard for 20 seconds, and then let up for 5 seconds.  They would get a stop, and then not box out.  They would beat their man to the spot, but then not get their hands up, or rotate to the wide open guy on the weak side.  They would get a decent shot at the basket, and then forget to get back on defense.

The 'mental lapse' excuse is wearing thin. Yes, they're mentally soft. But at some point -- when you're dominated night after night in key aspects of the game -- the physical capabilities of the team have to come into question.

I left the game midway through the 3rd quarter, disgusted. Last Cs game I'll see this year. But I saw enough of it to know that the Griz were faster, quicker, healthier, stonger, more agile and in better shape than the Cs.

Pierce's injuries have left him out of shape (not like conditioning was his strong suit). Davis' injuries have left him out of shape(not like conditioning was his strong suit). Rasheed is healthy and highly out of shape. I've seen 75 year old men run with more stability than Garnett. That's not mental, it's physical. Add the mental lapses you mention and you get the embarassment and frustration we're all feeling at the moment.

Where were these physical limitations when the team looked like it could challenge the all time wins record for a single season?

Seriously? When did this team look like it could challenge the all time wins record for a single season? Because guys in the locker room lied to themselves about it? This team has NEVER looked that good on the court. They squeeze out ugly wins when they're lucky enough to do so.

Looks, this type of talk is just excuses to buffer the bitter pill that the Cs -- due to roster structure, age, conditioning and health -- are not as capable as other teams.

They're mentally tough in 1st halfs but not in second halfs? They're bored? These are just excuses. This team is not physically capable of competing for 48 minutes for 82 games anymore. They get physically dominated around the basket -- shoots, blocks, rebounds, all of it. They're a jump shooting team leaving the ball on the front rim shot after shot.

It's a bitter pill. The sooner it's swallowed, the shorter the misery will last.

So what is your solution?

1) Stop lying to our collective self about their chances, 2) begin rebuilding before the window for any hope of success at it goes from 3-5 years to 10-15.

Number 2 likely involves consider a change in style that focuses more on Rondo's strengths, moving KG to center (since he can't be traded and can't play the 4 as effectively anymore) and getting value for Perk. 

Again, for pete's sake, let's trade Perk because he's had a bad few weeks but make the incredibly inconsistent Rondo more of a focal point for the team?

Mike

[ssspence]

This is not an athleticism thing, it is a focus and effort thing.  The C's were not beaten last night because they were slow, or couldn't jump.  They were beaten because they were only competing for maybe 3/4 of the time.  And this is the problem they have had all season.  They would go hard for 20 seconds, and then let up for 5 seconds.  They would get a stop, and then not box out.  They would beat their man to the spot, but then not get their hands up, or rotate to the wide open guy on the weak side.  They would get a decent shot at the basket, and then forget to get back on defense.

The 'mental lapse' excuse is wearing thin. Yes, they're mentally soft. But at some point -- when you're dominated night after night in key aspects of the game -- the physical capabilities of the team have to come into question.

I left the game midway through the 3rd quarter, disgusted. Last Cs game I'll see this year. But I saw enough of it to know that the Griz were faster, quicker, healthier, stonger, more agile and in better shape than the Cs.

Pierce's injuries have left him out of shape (not like conditioning was his strong suit). Davis' injuries have left him out of shape(not like conditioning was his strong suit). Rasheed is healthy and highly out of shape. I've seen 75 year old men run with more stability than Garnett. That's not mental, it's physical. Add the mental lapses you mention and you get the embarassment and frustration we're all feeling at the moment.

Where were these physical limitations when the team looked like it could challenge the all time wins record for a single season?

Seriously? When did this team look like it could challenge the all time wins record for a single season? Because guys in the locker room lied to themselves about it? This team has NEVER looked that good on the court. They squeeze out ugly wins when they're lucky enough to do so.

Looks, this type of talk is just excuses to buffer the bitter pill that the Cs -- due to roster structure, age, conditioning and health -- are not as capable as other teams.

They're mentally tough in 1st halfs but not in second halfs? They're bored? These are just excuses. This team is not physically capable of competing for 48 minutes for 82 games anymore. They get physically dominated around the basket -- shoots, blocks, rebounds, all of it. They're a jump shooting team leaving the ball on the front rim shot after shot.

It's a bitter pill. The sooner it's swallowed, the shorter the misery will last.

So what is your solution?

1) Stop lying to our collective self about their chances, 2) begin rebuilding before the window for any hope of success at it goes from 3-5 years to 10-15.

Number 2 likely involves consider a change in style that focuses more on Rondo's strengths, moving KG to center (since he can't be traded and can't play the 4 as effectively anymore) and getting value for Perk. 

Again, for pete's sake, let's trade Perk because he's had a bad few weeks but make the incredibly inconsistent Rondo more of a focal point for the team?

Mike

Sure, this team was gonna challenge the best record ever. They were going to be the best team in the history of the game. Then they lost their team spirit and things feel apart. Hate it when that happens 

And I don't want to trade Perk because I don't like his game. We have very little value on the roster. Perk is one of the few assets we have and he's best suited as a final piece, not a building block. We're going to rebuild around Rondo, and the two of them are not a great fit together....

[Mr October]

Ideally, it would be great for the C's to get more athletic (yet still very skilled), but those types of players are expensive, and their current teams want to keep them. No one is going to gift wrap anyone to the Celtics, just because we fans want them too.

Who the heck would Boston be able to get for Perkins? Yes he has value, but how much, really? None of us really know. But I think it is safe to say that trading Perkins isn't going to bring back a superstar.

There is no quick fix. Quick fixes are dangerous. The Rick Pitino era drove that home to me big time. Meanwhile Ainge gathered talent, and was able to flip them at just the right time.

[moiso]

There is a lot of truth to the origional post.  Rondo, TA, and now Nate are our only above average athletes and we don't have any athletic big guys.  This is absolutely a huge factor. It's why guys like Bogut and Varajao absolutely kill us.
The one thing that I think people are overlooking is that when you are super athletic you don't have to be as intense and fired up to get the same result.  We can absolutely compete in short spurts or a game with anyone.  But the effort and energy it takes for this old team to play on the level is unsustainable over the long haul.  This season is perfect evidence of that.  It's a lot harder for old guys to bring it every night that it is for young athletic guys.

[Who]

The Celtics backup big men lack quickness in a major way.

The rest of the roster's athleticism is fine.

[ssspence]

Ideally, it would be great for the C's to get more athletic (yet still very skilled), but those types of players are expensive, and their current teams want to keep them. No one is going to gift wrap anyone to the Celtics, just because we fans want them too.

Who the heck would Boston be able to get for Perkins? Yes he has value, but how much, really? None of us really know. But I think it is safe to say that trading Perkins isn't going to bring back a superstar.

There is no quick fix. Quick fixes are dangerous. The Rick Pitino era drove that home to me big time. Meanwhile Ainge gathered talent, and was able to flip them at just the right time.

He's a starting caliber center. That's more valuable than any of our other assets. Come to think of it, we have no other assets.

[fanofgreen]

I feel its more health & mental that athletic.  PP has been a step slow for awhile as has KG.  There's are health related, sheed who does play good defense can also look like he doesn't care.  Rondo who I love will go from dominating all aspects to matador defense.  Even at 50 years old ray has shown to still be as athletic as most players he goes against.

I disagree partly, about the fact that it is more health & mental than it is athletic.

Its mental when guys like Vince Carter, just for some reason wont use all of their physical gifts and use it to their advantage night in and night out.....because Vince has the ability to switch his mentality and translate that mentality into a physical action, and execute that mentality, simply because he has those physical abilities.

PP on the other hand, can have that mentalitly switch, and try and execute that into a physical ability, but he just simply cant do it anymore, because he does not posesses those physical gifts he had 2-3 years ago.

so to an extent it is mental, but the physical aspect has a lot to do with it.

[fanofgreen]

The Celtics backup big men lack quickness in a major way.

The rest of the roster's athleticism is fine.

Exactly. This is why I am the guy, since the moment New Jersey release him, has been saying we Need to sign Sean Williams!

[fanofgreen]

There is a lot of truth to the origional post.  Rondo, TA, and now Nate are our only above average athletes and we don't have any athletic big guys.  This is absolutely a huge factor. It's why guys like Bogut and Varajao absolutely kill us.
The one thing that I think people are overlooking is that when you are super athletic you don't have to be as intense and fired up to get the same result.  We can absolutely compete in short spurts or a game with anyone.  But the effort and energy it takes for this old team to play on the level is unsustainable over the long haul.  This season is perfect evidence of that.  It's a lot harder for old guys to bring it every night that it is for young athletic guys.

Exactly.

This is why I have been saying all along that we really really need to sign Sean Williams.

But I was and continue to catch so much flack about it.  Peope kept saying he's not good, he's a bonehead(partly true),he's not good for the locker room, he's not focused on basketball, etc.

My thing is, If he's not good, if he's a bonehead, if he's not focued on basketball, and can still get you 2,3,4 blocks, 7 or 8 rebs. tons of athleticism and energy; imagine what he can do if:

 he's on a team with a lot of veterans (which is y he wouldn't destroy the locker room),cirlced around big men like KG and Sheed, given a small expiring contract, and his play and attitude determine if he'll be in the league next season, and on a team with  a reasonable shot at the title.

[Chris]

This is not an athleticism thing, it is a focus and effort thing.  The C's were not beaten last night because they were slow, or couldn't jump.  They were beaten because they were only competing for maybe 3/4 of the time.  And this is the problem they have had all season.  They would go hard for 20 seconds, and then let up for 5 seconds.  They would get a stop, and then not box out.  They would beat their man to the spot, but then not get their hands up, or rotate to the wide open guy on the weak side.  They would get a decent shot at the basket, and then forget to get back on defense.

The 'mental lapse' excuse is wearing thin. Yes, they're mentally soft. But at some point -- when you're dominated night after night in key aspects of the game -- the physical capabilities of the team have to come into question.

I left the game midway through the 3rd quarter, disgusted. Last Cs game I'll see this year. But I saw enough of it to know that the Griz were faster, quicker, healthier, stonger, more agile and in better shape than the Cs.

Pierce's injuries have left him out of shape (not like conditioning was his strong suit). Davis' injuries have left him out of shape(not like conditioning was his strong suit). Rasheed is healthy and highly out of shape. I've seen 75 year old men run with more stability than Garnett. That's not mental, it's physical. Add the mental lapses you mention and you get the embarassment and frustration we're all feeling at the moment.

Where were these physical limitations when the team looked like it could challenge the all time wins record for a single season?

Seriously? When did this team look like it could challenge the all time wins record for a single season? Because guys in the locker room lied to themselves about it? This team has NEVER looked that good on the court. They squeeze out ugly wins when they're lucky enough to do so.

Looks, this type of talk is just excuses to buffer the bitter pill that the Cs -- due to roster structure, age, conditioning and health -- are not as capable as other teams.

They're mentally tough in 1st halfs but not in second halfs? They're bored? These are just excuses. This team is not physically capable of competing for 48 minutes for 82 games anymore. They get physically dominated around the basket -- shoots, blocks, rebounds, all of it. They're a jump shooting team leaving the ball on the front rim shot after shot.

It's a bitter pill. The sooner it's swallowed, the shorter the misery will last.

So what is your solution?

1) Stop lying to our collective self about their chances, 2) begin rebuilding before the window for any hope of success at it goes from 3-5 years to 10-15.

Number 2 likely involves consider a change in style that focuses more on Rondo's strengths, moving KG to center (since he can't be traded and can't play the 4 as effectively anymore) and getting value for Perk. 

Again, for pete's sake, let's trade Perk because he's had a bad few weeks but make the incredibly inconsistent Rondo more of a focal point for the team?

Mike

Not sure about the Rondo part, but some of us have been saying they would have to look at trading Perk for much longer than the last few weeks.

[fanofgreen]

I don't see how you can say our players lack the athleticism to compete in the NBA.  Paul, KG, and Ray have all had tough stretches, but they are all performing at a level above the average starter. 

Very few of our players are elite athletes (compared to their peers), but it's not like they're overmatched.  Also, of course, athleticism is overrated; Gerald Green and Sean Williams are great athletes, but it didn't make them players.

But thats because Gerald Green and Sean Williams, were in a situation where they were forced/expected to be players, when they simply aren't that. I call that bad scouting. For the simple fact that the reason those guys exceled at the High School level, the Collegiate level, is not because they were good players, but because they were physcial athletic freaks, who used their athleticism to gain an advantage over the rest of their competitors.

So for anyone to expect that all of a sudden a guy like Gerald Green or Sean Williams would turn into great players, is someone who isn't using common sense and connecting the dots.

If I was Danny Ainge, I would sign Sean Williams right now.
The C's need his athleticism desperately on the front line.
His athleticism alone, his like a guarantee for 2 or 3 blocked shots a game. Even if he plays just 15 minutes max. your going to get 2 blks out of him.. So thats at least 4 pts. you know the other team isn't going to get. You cant say that about any of our current bigs right now.(maybe KG for 1 blk, but thats it).

Sean Williams will give you energy, rebs, blk, and athleticism, automatically,just b/c thats his game thats how he plays, thats the way he has always played. any offense from him is a +plus.

Now, those 4 things the Sean Williams will give you automatically (energy,rebs,blk,athleticism). Are the exact same things that everyone seems to complain about, when discussing the problems with this team.
Yet when I mention the name Sean Williams, it seems like i get grenades thrown my way.

let me be clear- I dont want to build the franchise around Sean Williams, I want to add sean williams for the rest of this season, to help out with this very un-athletic and un-inspired front line.