An aspect of this team that we may be overlooking...

[vl819]

It is that other than Rondo and Nate , there is no one on this team that has the athleticism it takes to compete at a high level in the NBA.

The athleticism that i'm talking about is the straight speed, lateral movement speed, qiuck change of direction, vertical leap, and the ability to stop quickly from a speed dribble.

If you don't just watch the ball during games, you'll see what i mean.
I believe an elite team must have a strong core of experience and basketball wits, but that will only take you so far in the NBA, where arguably the most athletic humans dominate.

Just my 2 cents.

Please reply, I'd like to know what you guys think.

[Roy Hobbs]

I don't see how you can say our players lack the athleticism to compete in the NBA.  Paul, KG, and Ray have all had tough stretches, but they are all performing at a level above the average starter. 

Very few of our players are elite athletes (compared to their peers), but it's not like they're overmatched.  Also, of course, athleticism is overrated; Gerald Green and Sean Williams are great athletes, but it didn't make them players.

[vl819]

Thanks for your reply

All I know is I watch every game, and in every game i see us hustling yet still getting out-sprinted, out-jumped, and constantly getting beaten off the dribble.

[ssspence]

I don't see how you can say our players lack the athleticism to compete in the NBA.  Paul, KG, and Ray have all had tough stretches, but they are all performing at a level above the average starter. 

Very few of our players are elite athletes (compared to their peers), but it's not like they're overmatched.  Also, of course, athleticism is overrated; Gerald Green and Sean Williams are great athletes, but it didn't make them players.

Can't really agree. Picking out Green or Williams as examples of athletes who can't play doesn't change that many NBA players thrive on their athletic ability. Is Josh Smith considerably more skilled than Glen Davis? No. But who is better equiped to compete in the NBA?

Anyway, it's not just about the ability to jump or dunk, it's about agility and stamina, both short and long-term. The Cs are like ghosts in the second half of games, and they've gotten worse throughout the year. Call it age, call it athleticism, call it injury. All are related and affect that ability to compete athletically on the court.

Where's Hubie Brown when you need him....

[Chris]

This is not an athleticism thing, it is a focus and effort thing.  The C's were not beaten last night because they were slow, or couldn't jump.  They were beaten because they were only competing for maybe 3/4 of the time.  And this is the problem they have had all season.  They would go hard for 20 seconds, and then let up for 5 seconds.  They would get a stop, and then not box out.  They would beat their man to the spot, but then not get their hands up, or rotate to the wide open guy on the weak side.  They would get a decent shot at the basket, and then forget to get back on defense.

[ssspence]

This is not an athleticism thing, it is a focus and effort thing.  The C's were not beaten last night because they were slow, or couldn't jump.  They were beaten because they were only competing for maybe 3/4 of the time.  And this is the problem they have had all season.  They would go hard for 20 seconds, and then let up for 5 seconds.  They would get a stop, and then not box out.  They would beat their man to the spot, but then not get their hands up, or rotate to the wide open guy on the weak side.  They would get a decent shot at the basket, and then forget to get back on defense.

The 'mental lapse' excuse is wearing thin. Yes, they're mentally soft. But at some point -- when you're dominated night after night in key aspects of the game -- the physical capabilities of the team have to come into question.

I left the game midway through the 3rd quarter, disgusted. Last Cs game I'll see this year. But I saw enough of it to know that the Griz were faster, quicker, healthier, stonger, more agile and in better shape than the Cs.

Pierce's injuries have left him out of shape (not like conditioning was his strong suit). Davis' injuries have left him out of shape(not like conditioning was his strong suit). Rasheed is healthy and highly out of shape. I've seen 75 year old men run with more stability than Garnett. That's not mental, it's physical. Add the mental lapses you mention and you get the embarassment and frustration we're all feeling at the moment.

[footey]

This is not an athleticism thing, it is a focus and effort thing.  The C's were not beaten last night because they were slow, or couldn't jump.  They were beaten because they were only competing for maybe 3/4 of the time.  And this is the problem they have had all season.  They would go hard for 20 seconds, and then let up for 5 seconds.  They would get a stop, and then not box out.  They would beat their man to the spot, but then not get their hands up, or rotate to the wide open guy on the weak side.  They would get a decent shot at the basket, and then forget to get back on defense.

The 'mental lapse' excuse is wearing thin. Yes, they're mentally soft. But at some point -- when you're dominated night after night in key aspects of the game -- the physical capabilities of the team have to come into question.

I left the game midway through the 3rd quarter, disgusted. Last Cs game I'll see this year. But I saw enough of it to know that the Griz were faster, quicker, healthier, stonger, more agile and in better shape than the Cs.

Pierce's injuries have left him out of shape (not like conditioning was his strong suit). Davis' injuries have left him out of shape(not like conditioning was his strong suit). Rasheed is healthy and highly out of shape. I've seen 75 year old men run with more stability than Garnett. That's not mental, it's physical. Add the mental lapses you mention and you get the embarassment and frustration we're all feeling at the moment.

wow, wish I could rebut, but I pretty much agree with this lock, stock and barrel.

[Tai]

KG's done pretty well lately for someone running around like a 75 year old.

Is this "what have you done for me lately" or "what have you done for me the last immediate game even if you did ok in the one before?" 

[MBunge]

This is not an athleticism thing, it is a focus and effort thing.  The C's were not beaten last night because they were slow, or couldn't jump.  They were beaten because they were only competing for maybe 3/4 of the time.  And this is the problem they have had all season.  They would go hard for 20 seconds, and then let up for 5 seconds.  They would get a stop, and then not box out.  They would beat their man to the spot, but then not get their hands up, or rotate to the wide open guy on the weak side.  They would get a decent shot at the basket, and then forget to get back on defense.

The 'mental lapse' excuse is wearing thin. Yes, they're mentally soft. But at some point -- when you're dominated night after night in key aspects of the game -- the physical capabilities of the team have to come into question.

I left the game midway through the 3rd quarter, disgusted. Last Cs game I'll see this year. But I saw enough of it to know that the Griz were faster, quicker, healthier, stonger, more agile and in better shape than the Cs.

Pierce's injuries have left him out of shape (not like conditioning was his strong suit). Davis' injuries have left him out of shape(not like conditioning was his strong suit). Rasheed is healthy and highly out of shape. I've seen 75 year old men run with more stability than Garnett. That's not mental, it's physical. Add the mental lapses you mention and you get the embarassment and frustration we're all feeling at the moment.

Where were these physical limitations when the team looked like it could challenge the all time wins record for a single season?  Why did these physical limitations result in the Cs being significantly worse at home than on the road?

This team is old and banged up, but NBA history tells us that talented, veteran teams that are old and banged up do better at home than on the road.  This team is exactly the opposite.

This embarrassing implosion is due almost entire to mental softness and some pretty obvious team chemisty problems (the fault of the players) and a complete inability or unwillingness to do anything about them (the fault of the coaches and the organization).

Mike

[Q_FBE]

I guess my only logical reply to that is "You are who you are".

The evidence I see is not encouraging. Older teams do not come to play every night and it is up to the coach to make substitutions and read game situations. The coach can help keep you competing. Doc has no answers and it sucks watching this team now.

Regardless, Danny has one helluva a lot of work to do this offseason.

I'm pretty discouraged.

[ssspence]

This is not an athleticism thing, it is a focus and effort thing.  The C's were not beaten last night because they were slow, or couldn't jump.  They were beaten because they were only competing for maybe 3/4 of the time.  And this is the problem they have had all season.  They would go hard for 20 seconds, and then let up for 5 seconds.  They would get a stop, and then not box out.  They would beat their man to the spot, but then not get their hands up, or rotate to the wide open guy on the weak side.  They would get a decent shot at the basket, and then forget to get back on defense.

The 'mental lapse' excuse is wearing thin. Yes, they're mentally soft. But at some point -- when you're dominated night after night in key aspects of the game -- the physical capabilities of the team have to come into question.

I left the game midway through the 3rd quarter, disgusted. Last Cs game I'll see this year. But I saw enough of it to know that the Griz were faster, quicker, healthier, stonger, more agile and in better shape than the Cs.

Pierce's injuries have left him out of shape (not like conditioning was his strong suit). Davis' injuries have left him out of shape(not like conditioning was his strong suit). Rasheed is healthy and highly out of shape. I've seen 75 year old men run with more stability than Garnett. That's not mental, it's physical. Add the mental lapses you mention and you get the embarassment and frustration we're all feeling at the moment.

Where were these physical limitations when the team looked like it could challenge the all time wins record for a single season?

Seriously? When did this team look like it could challenge the all time wins record for a single season? Because guys in the locker room lied to themselves about it? This team has NEVER looked that good on the court. They squeeze out ugly wins when they're lucky enough to do so.

Looks, this type of talk is just excuses to buffer the bitter pill that the Cs -- due to roster structure, age, conditioning and health -- are not as capable as other teams.

They're mentally tough in 1st halfs but not in second halfs? They're bored? These are just excuses. This team is not physically capable of competing for 48 minutes for 82 games anymore. They get physically dominated around the basket -- shoots, blocks, rebounds, all of it. They're a jump shooting team leaving the ball on the front rim shot after shot.

It's a bitter pill. The sooner it's swallowed, the shorter the misery will last.

[Q_FBE]

This is not an athleticism thing, it is a focus and effort thing.  The C's were not beaten last night because they were slow, or couldn't jump.  They were beaten because they were only competing for maybe 3/4 of the time.  And this is the problem they have had all season.  They would go hard for 20 seconds, and then let up for 5 seconds.  They would get a stop, and then not box out.  They would beat their man to the spot, but then not get their hands up, or rotate to the wide open guy on the weak side.  They would get a decent shot at the basket, and then forget to get back on defense.

The 'mental lapse' excuse is wearing thin. Yes, they're mentally soft. But at some point -- when you're dominated night after night in key aspects of the game -- the physical capabilities of the team have to come into question.

I left the game midway through the 3rd quarter, disgusted. Last Cs game I'll see this year. But I saw enough of it to know that the Griz were faster, quicker, healthier, stonger, more agile and in better shape than the Cs.

Pierce's injuries have left him out of shape (not like conditioning was his strong suit). Davis' injuries have left him out of shape(not like conditioning was his strong suit). Rasheed is healthy and highly out of shape. I've seen 75 year old men run with more stability than Garnett. That's not mental, it's physical. Add the mental lapses you mention and you get the embarassment and frustration we're all feeling at the moment.

Where were these physical limitations when the team looked like it could challenge the all time wins record for a single season?

Seriously? When did this team look like it could challenge the all time wins record for a single season? Because guys in the locker room lied to themselves about it? This team has NEVER looked that good on the court. They squeeze out ugly wins when they're lucky enough to do so.

Looks, this type of talk is just excuses to buffer the bitter pill that the Cs -- due to roster structure, age, conditioning and health -- are not as capable as other teams.

They're mentally tough in 1st halfs but not in second halfs? They're bored? These are just excuses. This team is not physically capable of competing for 48 minutes for 82 games anymore. They get physically dominated around the basket -- shoots, blocks, rebounds, all of it. They're a jump shooting team leaving the ball on the front rim shot after shot.

It's a bitter pill. The sooner it's swallowed, the shorter the misery will last.

So what is your solution?

[Roy Hobbs]

This is not an athleticism thing, it is a focus and effort thing.  The C's were not beaten last night because they were slow, or couldn't jump.  They were beaten because they were only competing for maybe 3/4 of the time.  And this is the problem they have had all season.  They would go hard for 20 seconds, and then let up for 5 seconds.  They would get a stop, and then not box out.  They would beat their man to the spot, but then not get their hands up, or rotate to the wide open guy on the weak side.  They would get a decent shot at the basket, and then forget to get back on defense.

The 'mental lapse' excuse is wearing thin. Yes, they're mentally soft. But at some point -- when you're dominated night after night in key aspects of the game -- the physical capabilities of the team have to come into question.

I left the game midway through the 3rd quarter, disgusted. Last Cs game I'll see this year. But I saw enough of it to know that the Griz were faster, quicker, healthier, stonger, more agile and in better shape than the Cs.

Pierce's injuries have left him out of shape (not like conditioning was his strong suit). Davis' injuries have left him out of shape(not like conditioning was his strong suit). Rasheed is healthy and highly out of shape. I've seen 75 year old men run with more stability than Garnett. That's not mental, it's physical. Add the mental lapses you mention and you get the embarassment and frustration we're all feeling at the moment.

Where were these physical limitations when the team looked like it could challenge the all time wins record for a single season?

Seriously? When did this team look like it could challenge the all time wins record for a single season? Because guys in the locker room lied to themselves about it? This team has NEVER looked that good on the court. They squeeze out ugly wins when they're lucky enough to do so.

Looks, this type of talk is just excuses to buffer the bitter pill that the Cs -- due to roster structure, age, conditioning and health -- are not as capable as other teams.

They're mentally tough in 1st halfs but not in second halfs? They're bored? These are just excuses. This team is not physically capable of competing for 48 minutes for 82 games anymore. They get physically dominated around the basket -- shoots, blocks, rebounds, all of it. They're a jump shooting team leaving the ball on the front rim shot after shot.

It's a bitter pill. The sooner it's swallowed, the shorter the misery will last.

At one point the team was 23-5, and leading the NBA in point differential by a wide margin.  To suggest that this team couldn't compete all season long is simply not accurate.

[2short]

I feel its more health & mental that athletic.  PP has been a step slow for awhile as has KG.  There's are health related, sheed who does play good defense can also look like he doesn't care.  Rondo who I love will go from dominating all aspects to matador defense.  Even at 50 years old ray has shown to still be as athletic as most players he goes against.

[MBunge]

This is not an athleticism thing, it is a focus and effort thing.  The C's were not beaten last night because they were slow, or couldn't jump.  They were beaten because they were only competing for maybe 3/4 of the time.  And this is the problem they have had all season.  They would go hard for 20 seconds, and then let up for 5 seconds.  They would get a stop, and then not box out.  They would beat their man to the spot, but then not get their hands up, or rotate to the wide open guy on the weak side.  They would get a decent shot at the basket, and then forget to get back on defense.

The 'mental lapse' excuse is wearing thin. Yes, they're mentally soft. But at some point -- when you're dominated night after night in key aspects of the game -- the physical capabilities of the team have to come into question.

I left the game midway through the 3rd quarter, disgusted. Last Cs game I'll see this year. But I saw enough of it to know that the Griz were faster, quicker, healthier, stonger, more agile and in better shape than the Cs.

Pierce's injuries have left him out of shape (not like conditioning was his strong suit). Davis' injuries have left him out of shape(not like conditioning was his strong suit). Rasheed is healthy and highly out of shape. I've seen 75 year old men run with more stability than Garnett. That's not mental, it's physical. Add the mental lapses you mention and you get the embarassment and frustration we're all feeling at the moment.

Where were these physical limitations when the team looked like it could challenge the all time wins record for a single season?

Seriously? When did this team look like it could challenge the all time wins record for a single season? Because guys in the locker room lied to themselves about it? This team has NEVER looked that good on the court. They squeeze out ugly wins when they're lucky enough to do so.

Looks, this type of talk is just excuses to buffer the bitter pill that the Cs -- due to roster structure, age, conditioning and health -- are not as capable as other teams.

They're mentally tough in 1st halfs but not in second halfs? They're bored? These are just excuses. This team is not physically capable of competing for 48 minutes for 82 games anymore. They get physically dominated around the basket -- shoots, blocks, rebounds, all of it. They're a jump shooting team leaving the ball on the front rim shot after shot.

It's a bitter pill. The sooner it's swallowed, the shorter the misery will last.

As Roy Hobbs said, the Celtics were 23-5 and looked great earlier in the season.  Age and physical decline might have explained going from that to a team that's good but clearly not a title contender.  They do not explain going from arguably best team in the NBA to a team that's played sub .500 ball since that 23-5 start.  They also don't explain how this team STILL has a better road record than either Orlando or the Lakers.

Do the problems with this team start with the players?  Yes.  But those problems have been compounded by a coaching staff and management that have done nothing but allow them to fester.

Mike