Rondo is Average

[wiley]

Where did the OP go and what happened to his opinion...?

[dark_lord]

Where did the OP go and what happened to his opinion...?

i hear u....pet peeve of mine.

[BballTim]

Sorry More Banners your cherry picking of some games here and there doesn't negate the fact that I wouldn't need to cheery pick all the times Rondo has outplayed and outperformed his opposition

Also, at least 3 of the examples you gave, I would favor Rondo in

Don't see your point of view or understand it

Basketball pundits around the country concur more with the point of view that Rondo is an elite PG in this league and not just average

Heck the coaches voted him on the All-Star team and the consensus was that he was clearly the best PG in the Eastern Conference

Average PGs aren't usually called the best in a conference

What I didn't do was define what a "clear advantage" would be, so reasonable and intelligent people can surely disagree, as is the case here.  FTR: I think Rondo's above average, and wrote that.  But I also think that some talented PG's currently starting for "troubled" teams would look quite a bit better on our team, too.  I include guys like Devin Harris, Andre Miller, and Foye (who would be a nice offseason backup comboguard pickup, IMHO) in that group.

  I think it's the case that Rondo would look better on other teams and those guys would look worse on the Celts, the same way Ray and Paul and KG all saw their stats drop when they were put on the same team. People say that the big three make Rondo look better but his stats went up when they were either out of the lineup or playing poorly due to injury.

Really, the problem is just that it's hard to rank players that have a very different style of game and different strengths.  Rondo is a passer, and only an opportunistic scorer, so comparing him to true scoring PG's like Foye and Harris is tough, made even harder by the huge difference in their respective supporting casts.  It's apples and oranges:  is 10/10 better than 18/6 with some 3's?  The answer really depends on what the respective team needs, right?  Thoughtful and informed observers give the advantage to one guy or the other, depending on what each gives higher weight to.

  I don't think that's a realistic comparison. Rondo's getting 14/10, Harris gets 17/7 and Foye gets 10/3. Rondo's getting 15-16 a game since Xmas and he got around 18/10 when Paul and KG were out. No pg in the league gets more than 20 a game. On top of that, Harris isn't even a better outside shot than Rondo. Take a (inefficient) scoring pg who can't handle the ball or pass or rebound or defend as well as Rondo and make them the 4th option in an offense and the results aren't going to be impressive.

[Rondo_is_better]

He's not

He was chosen as a reserve for the ASG. That means the coaches of the NBA decided he was exceedingly above average -


edited. erased part no needed

[ajgoodman]

Rondo is not average by any means, but he is also often over-rated by a lot of Boston fans. 'nough said.

[rav123]

Sorry More Banners your cherry picking of some games here and there doesn't negate the fact that I wouldn't need to cheery pick all the times Rondo has outplayed and outperformed his opposition

Also, at least 3 of the examples you gave, I would favor Rondo in

Don't see your point of view or understand it

Basketball pundits around the country concur more with the point of view that Rondo is an elite PG in this league and not just average

Heck the coaches voted him on the All-Star team and the consensus was that he was clearly the best PG in the Eastern Conference

Average PGs aren't usually called the best in a conference

What I didn't do was define what a "clear advantage" would be, so reasonable and intelligent people can surely disagree, as is the case here.  FTR: I think Rondo's above average, and wrote that.  But I also think that some talented PG's currently starting for "troubled" teams would look quite a bit better on our team, too.  I include guys like Devin Harris, Andre Miller, and Foye (who would be a nice offseason backup comboguard pickup, IMHO) in that group.

  I think it's the case that Rondo would look better on other teams and those guys would look worse on the Celts, the same way Ray and Paul and KG all saw their stats drop when they were put on the same team. People say that the big three make Rondo look better but his stats went up when they were either out of the lineup or playing poorly due to injury.

Really, the problem is just that it's hard to rank players that have a very different style of game and different strengths.  Rondo is a passer, and only an opportunistic scorer, so comparing him to true scoring PG's like Foye and Harris is tough, made even harder by the huge difference in their respective supporting casts.  It's apples and oranges:  is 10/10 better than 18/6 with some 3's?  The answer really depends on what the respective team needs, right?  Thoughtful and informed observers give the advantage to one guy or the other, depending on what each gives higher weight to.

  I don't think that's a realistic comparison. Rondo's getting 14/10, Harris gets 17/7 and Foye gets 10/3. Rondo's getting 15-16 a game since Xmas and he got around 18/10 when Paul and KG were out. No pg in the league gets more than 20 a game. On top of that, Harris isn't even a better outside shot than Rondo. Take a (inefficient) scoring pg who can't handle the ball or pass or rebound or defend as well as Rondo and make them the 4th option in an offense and the results aren't going to be impressive.

Concur with you there. He showed similar assist numbers with Big 3 members out (hence refuting the argument his teammates inflate his assist numbers) while scoring more (refuting the argument that he only scores as defenders are too busy paying attention to his teammates). Playing for a .500 team, I can see him putting up 20/10/5/3. More points, similar assists, similar rebounds, more steals (he can gamble all he wants 'cuz defense won't matter  ). I put him at #4 behind Paul, Williams and Nash.

[snively]

The NBA is not rock, paper, scissors: head-to-head matchups do not determine the pecking order. It's performance over time 

I don't think is true. I don't think you can discount how effective or ineffective a player is when matched up against players at his own position.

I think the head-to-head matchups play a very important role in deciding how talented an individual player is. It's not much use if your player pads his stat line against lousy competition but comes up short whenever he's faced against the best players at his position (extreme example to prove the point). It's also a big factor is an excellent player but routinely struggles against certain types of opposing players (quick guards, big guards, whatever). That too lowers his value.

I also think head-to-head matchups is a strength for Rajon Rondo given how successful he has been against many of the elite point guards in the league + that he still plays down to the level of his competition (lesser point guards) too often. I don't believe that is a problem with the matchup (other guy making his life difficult) as much as it is a problem with his consistency/focus/effort.

You make great points, but I think the general strength and diversity of NBA rosters minimize the opportunities for stat padding and regularly expose major flaws, at least enough so that season averages (provided they are backed by a significant number of minutes) tend to provide the most accurate assessments of a player's capacity for production against any opponent.

I'm overstating my case a bit.  From playing basketball, I know how important match-ups are.  It's just in my attempts at projecting results, the evaluations I've based on perceived match-up advantages have been less reliable than evaluations based on the stats.

[ACF]

Where did the OP go and what happened to his opinion...?

Nothing wrong with More Banners's opinion. Personally, I just don't think he's right.

[Chief]

Rondo is an average PG. He can't carry a team a la Steve Nash, Chris Paul, and Deron Williams. He is not a scoring threat a la Chauncey Billups, Tony Parker, Tyreke Evans. Is he better than Aaron Brooks? (questionable) Is he better than Derrick Rose? (Noo) In couple of years, you can add Stephen Curry, Brandon Jennings, Jonny Flynn, Rodney Stuckey, and Darren Collison to list of guys that will surpass Rondo.

A nice building block, but not a franchise player.

 

[Bahku]

Magic Johnson, in a post-game interview yesterday, called Rondo "The best all-around Point-Guard in the NBA ... Jason Kidd used to be, but now it's Rajon." Anyone who thinks this guy is average, has NOT been watching him play ... at least not with their eyes open.  

[twistedrico]

I bet this "Change" character is feeling pretty dumb right about now.  Rondo is the best point guard in the league.   

[More Banners]

I bet this "Change" character is feeling pretty dumb right about now.  Rondo is the best point guard in the league.   

And BBD is 6th man of the year.

Slight sarcasm there...sorry.

Sometimes it isn't quite fair to exhume old threads to mock them or the posters, particularly months later when the player has developed (as Rondo's shot has) and the team has developed (as the C's now give Rondo more freedom) and/or the team/player (or both) is/are (rather suddenly) giving an exponentially higher effort.

And let's be honest, it is our expectation that our team/players will play better and harder now than they did in March, right?

[Thruthelookingglass]

Agree with you More Banners.  Not fair--because anyone can be right with 20-20 hindsight.  And essentially, the opinions we express about players and their development are really just guesses anyway. 

Doc, Danny and the staff know more about the players than our army of armchair quarterbacks.  That's why Tony Allen has emerged as a solid bench player and sick defender in this run, and Rondo wasn't traded for a ham sandwich and the rights to Kevin Pittsnogle. 

[wbones1]

Not saying Rondo is the problem. But thinking somehow Rondo can keep this team afloat after the big3 is in fact illusional. The guy is average. Nothing about him is exceptional.

You mean besides his passing, transition play, stealing ability, rebounding, and interior scoring?

Passing to wide open ray allen or KG, woow.... that must be amazing. Isn't he even grabbing around 4boards a game? There goes your rebounding argument. Leaving his assignment to get steals, yeah that smart. No wonder why opposing PG torch the Celtics. Interior Scoring should never be left to Point-Guards. That's the bigs job. In the playoffs he won't get too many open layups. Especially against shot blocking Centers and Power-Fowards. Rondo will struggle in the playoffs. 

Gee I sure hope he struggles in the playoffs just as much as last year  

He'll struggle. Shot Blockers negate his 'inside scoring'. Teams will sag off and dare him to shoot. Then what will he do? This team already has #1 liability with Perk, Rondo will be liability #2 in the playoffs.

Do you still feel like Rondo is a liability in the playoffs? lol

[Roy Hobbs]

There's no need to mock others, or tell them "I told you so".  It's okay to look at threads in retrospect, just please don't add a value judgment to somebody else's opinion.