Bill Walker's play with the Knicks...(merged)

[Induna]

As is Scalabrine who is even worse than that. You miss the point totally about the military analogy and the development of a player

[Tai]

Isn't Scal basically an inactive player, now?

[Mr October]

As is Scalabrine who is even worse than that. You miss the point totally about the military analogy and the development of a player

If a player demonstrates that he is inadequate in practice, why put him in a game? Especially in a game for a contender.

If a soldier demonstrates that he is inadequate in training, why put him in a special operations combat mission?

[hwangjini_1]

For me it all boils down to Walker just giving these kids a few real minutes to help them develop and to see what they can do. Watching them sit wondering if they can possibly contribute more than a Scalabrine really gets to me. I am not talking playoff burn I am talking development minutes to see if they are worth keeping, to improve their play (nothing beats real minutes for that) and to increase their trade value.

In all this you have to say the C's have shown amazing ability tom pick guys low in the draft that are worth talking about. Hopefully the trend continues.

i understand your point about developing players. but isnt practice where most young players who are not star-like in their ability the place to develop?

that is, i am not sure exactly how playing walker (or others) 5 to 7  minutes a game will develop a player all that much faster. it seems that practice would show a player's ability much better since they are competing against starters and playing many more minutes.

further, it seems to me that in practice you can learn more about plays, etc than in a game.

game time is important in development, but practice would seem to be a better place to develop a young player who does not have the obvious skills to play in the nba on a consistent basis.

does walker suddenly show abilities, skills, intellect, leadership, etc in games that he could not, or did not, show during hours and hours and hours of practice?

it seems to me that doc evaluates players through practice, especially younger ones. then they take what they learn onto the floor during games.

walker is not that good a player by nba standards. he seems destined for bench time on most times. also, doc may believe that with the chemistry of the current celtic team, walker did not fit in well.

I have to disagree, you can only see and do so much at practice. You can basically learn the theory of basketball in practice but you need a game time education as well.  Games are also the ideal situation to assess progress made in practice.

I also think you are wrong when you say Walker obviously does not have the skills to play in the NBA where he is currently playiong and producing that flat out does not make any sense at all. All the evidence points to the contrary.

You also have zero proof that walker did not fit in at the celtics - what are the indicators of that?

"walker is not that good a player by nba standards. he seems destined for bench time on most time"

in your post, there was not a very exact quote of my post, as you may see.

as for zero indicators for not fitting in, that was conjecture on my part. the very few times i saw him he did not seem to get into the flow of the game. that may be, as you posit, a product of not enough game minutes.

it might also indicated to doc that for walker to fit in to the team plays better it may not be worth the time of putting him in at the expense of  other players.

no personal interviews with doc by me, just conjecture on the final point.

[Andy Jick]

Isn't Scal basically an inactive player, now?

he has all the intangibles to fill the role of 14th man quite capably...

[hwangjini_1]

Isn't Scal basically an inactive player, now?

he has all the intangibles to fill the role of 14th man quite capably...

given that at cb, we all must violently disagree with one another....i disagree. i think scal would be perfect as the 13th man. but doc only players stars and doesnt give scrubs the chance to develop. 

[Andy Jick]

Isn't Scal basically an inactive player, now?

he has all the intangibles to fill the role of 14th man quite capably...

given that at cb, we all must violently disagree with one another....i disagree. i think scal would be perfect as the 13th man. but doc only players stars and doesnt give scrubs the chance to develop. 

it's danny ainge's fault that scalabrine never developed as a player...  danny failed to trade for jason kidd...

[Bossco]

Saying that because a coach does not play a player in games, it must be because the player didn't earn it in practice is absurd imho. By not playing younger players in games makes it easier for the coach to do what he wants and likes which in doc's case is to stick with the proven vets, if he has them. If he gave the younger guys more of a chance and they did good - what would doc do then? He would have an even harder time dishing the minutes out.

Opportunity is the name of the game. Why not play players like Walker the whole 4th quarter in games that are blowouts after 3 qtrs instead of giving them 3-7 min in garbage time like doc usually does? I can remember pleading with doc to put Leon in during those types of games during the first half of our championship year. He took a very long time to start giving him minutes. Was that because he wasn't practicing well enough?

I think in every sport teams must develop for the future as well as win now. Look at Bill Belichick. He traded a core vet pro bowl player (Richard Seymour) for a #1 draft pick in TWO years. Why did he do that? I know it is not the same sport but can you imagine doc ever going along for something like that? (if it could be done)

Practice is just that - Practice.

Does anyone remember the fact that Joe Johnson was NOT in OB's rotation anymore when he was traded? At the time most people thought that it was a good trade = 2 proven vets for a guy no longer in the rotation.

I am NOT saying Bill Walker is Joe Johnson. All I am saying is that before you trade young players away you better know if they can play or not. By only letting the coach judge them in practice (and not in games) sets you up for making mistakes. Has Bill Walker become a better player in practice since he went to NY? No, his coach wants to see what he can do.

Developing young players is also part of doc's job. Danny can draft guys in the 2nd round who have a chance to make it, but with doc's philosophy that makes it more of a long shot.

I truly believe that if it were totally up to doc - Rajon may not even be on this team.

[Andy Jick]

Bossco...  It's a moot point.  This happens to every team in the league - young players get dealt.  Personally, I would have preferred they kept him over tony allen, because I knew once a wing became available (a veteran) that tony would ride the pine.  but salaries are a big part of trades.

there's nothing that says danny can't sign bill walker...  but i don't blame him for making the move.  we needed a REAL backup PG (not daniels) and walker had to be dealt to make it happen.  i don't think he'll become all that great of a player, and i'm not going to lose sleep over him.  live moves on...

[yoursweatersux]

Saying that because a coach does not play a player in games, it must be because the player didn't earn it in practice is absurd imho. By not playing younger players in games makes it easier for the coach to do what he wants and likes which in doc's case is to stick with the proven vets, if he has them. If he gave the younger guys more of a chance and they did good - what would doc do then? He would have an even harder time dishing the minutes out.

Opportunity is the name of the game. Why not play players like Walker the whole 4th quarter in games that are blowouts after 3 qtrs instead of giving them 3-7 min in garbage time like doc usually does? I can remember pleading with doc to put Leon in during those types of games during the first half of our championship year. He took a very long time to start giving him minutes. Was that because he wasn't practicing well enough?

I think in every sport teams must develop for the future as well as win now. Look at Bill Belichick. He traded a core vet pro bowl player (Richard Seymour) for a #1 draft pick in TWO years. Why did he do that? I know it is not the same sport but can you imagine doc ever going along for something like that? (if it could be done)

Practice is just that - Practice.

Does anyone remember the fact that Joe Johnson was NOT in OB's rotation anymore when he was traded? At the time most people thought that it was a good trade = 2 proven vets for a guy no longer in the rotation.

I am NOT saying Bill Walker is Joe Johnson. All I am saying is that before you trade young players away you better know if they can play or not. By only letting the coach judge them in practice (and not in games) sets you up for making mistakes. Has Bill Walker become a better player in practice since he went to NY? No, his coach wants to see what he can do.

Developing young players is also part of doc's job. Danny can draft guys in the 2nd round who have a chance to make it, but with doc's philosophy that makes it more of a long shot.

I truly believe that if it were totally up to doc - Rajon may not even be on this team.

I agree 100%. I think it's a safe bet to say that, during our championship run, if Sam Cassell had been on the roster from the start of the season he would've been starting over Rondo.

The only thing that saved Rondo's career/development was the fact that we didn't pick up Sam until later which basically forced Doc into starting Rondo.

The real funny thing is (and I've made another thread about it, so I won't repeat myself overly much) is that it was obvious to me that Bill Walker was a player. Whenever he'd get in the game he'd do some real nice stuff, and I'm sure some of you noticed that too, but from what I saw nobody on this board ever made a post about it.

I think a lot of people brushed it off as "garbage time" performance. I'm sorry, but bad players always play bad and good players always play good no matter whether or not it's garbage time. Remember Patrick O'Bryant in garbage time? The dude sucked. Yet miraculously a lot of people on this board defended him and said all he had to do was work on his game and he'd be solid. Same with Gabe Pruitt. Ironically, during the same time period almost nobody mentioned Bill Walker.

And the weirdest part is that now, when everybody is starting to realize Bill Walker is a player, a bunch of people on here still want to deny it. I just can't understand the love for obvious scrubs like Pruitt and O'Bryant and the spiteful dismissal of Bill Walker. It's just weird.

[Fafnir]

The real funny thing is (and I've made another thread about it, so I won't repeat myself overly much) is that it was obvious to me that Bill Walker was a player. Whenever he'd get in the game he'd do some real nice stuff, and I'm sure some of you noticed that too, but from what I saw nobody on this board ever made a post about it.

That's weird, because there was a constant stream of threads and posters hyping up Bill Walker all through last year, we talked about him an awful lot.

As for him being a player in the league, I still have my doubts. Take a look at his recent game log, he's not exactly lighting the world on fire.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/walkebi01.html

Furthermore New York is a bad team that plays at a very fast pace. They've had plenty of players compile notable stats who weren't as good as they appeared by the raw numbers.

[JBcat]

I'm not sure if anyone has already mentioned this as I didn't see it however I saw a quote recently and I think it was when we played the Knicks.   Doc said Walker prior to the trade was getting really close to earning minutes and he was about to start playing him.   He was battling injuries and learning the system and wasn't quite ready before.   However the bigger need was a   real PG and Walker became expendable once Finley came on board.

So let's say the trade never happened it's quite possible Walker could be getting Finley's minutes if we believe Doc that he was getting really close to start playing him. 

[JBcat]

Here is the quote I was referring to from a 3/18 article on boston.com

“It was tough,’’ said Rivers. “Unless you want me to sit down Paul [Pierce] or Ray [Allen] or Marquis [Daniels]. So it would have been tough for him to play here.

“But before he was moved, we were going to play him some because he was starting to earn it. He was looking better in the practices.’’

[nickagneta]

Here is the quote I was referring to from a 3/18 article on boston.com

“It was tough,’’ said Rivers. “Unless you want me to sit down Paul [Pierce] or Ray [Allen] or Marquis [Daniels]. So it would have been tough for him to play here.

“But before he was moved, we were going to play him some because he was starting to earn it. He was looking better in the practices.’’

Sounds like proof to me that Doc makes young players earn time in practice and not just sit them because he prefers vets. I think this complete urban myth and crazy notion that Doc doesn't like young players or develop them comes to an end at some point but the believers of this ridiculous notion are just so entrenched in their beliefs.

The problem with the people that think Doc doesn't make players earn their time but just uses vets can be found in the fact that the have no trust in him because they don't like his coaching style. So they need to see that the player sitting sucks on their own and don't trust his judgment. My guess is if they were Spurs fans or Laker fans or Magic fans if they didn't like Pop, Jackson or SVG, they would be saying the same thing about those coaches because, let's face it, they play and have played a ton of vets over the years. I don't think this claim is any more or less valid for those coaches either.

But its a show me for me to believe world and some people just are not going to give Doc his just due in regards to using and developing young talent because they just don't like him as a coach. Facts be [dang]ed regarding all the young players that have become stars and/or viable NBA players under Doc's tutelage. Facts be [dang]ed regarding the number of players that Doc has had under his control that he didn't play that have gone on to become players under someone else.

Let's just keep bringing up the same sorry stories without any factual basis behind them simply because Doc doesn't play young guys to appease a group of people because they won't be convinced these players suck in the NBA until they see it themselves.

[CoachCowens]

Here is the quote I was referring to from a 3/18 article on boston.com

“It was tough,’’ said Rivers. “Unless you want me to sit down Paul [Pierce] or Ray [Allen] or Marquis [Daniels]. So it would have been tough for him to play here.

“But before he was moved, we were going to play him some because he was starting to earn it. He was looking better in the practices.’’

Sounds like proof to me that Doc makes young players earn time in practice and not just sit them because he prefers vets. I think this complete urban myth and crazy notion that Doc doesn't like young players or develop them comes to an end at some point but the believers of this ridiculous notion are just so entrenched in their beliefs.

The problem with the people that think Doc doesn't make players earn their time but just uses vets can be found in the fact that the have no trust in him because they don't like his coaching style. So they need to see that the player sitting sucks on their own and don't trust his judgment. My guess is if they were Spurs fans or Laker fans or Magic fans if they didn't like Pop, Jackson or SVG, they would be saying the same thing about those coaches because, let's face it, they play and have played a ton of vets over the years. I don't think this claim is any more or less valid for those coaches either.

But its a show me for me to believe world and some people just are not going to give Doc his just due in regards to using and developing young talent because they just don't like him as a coach. Facts be [dang]ed regarding all the young players that have become stars and/or viable NBA players under Doc's tutelage. Facts be [dang]ed regarding the number of players that Doc has had under his control that he didn't play that have gone on to become players under someone else.

Let's just keep bringing up the same sorry stories without any factual basis behind them simply because Doc doesn't play young guys to appease a group of people because they won't be convinced these players suck in the NBA until they see it themselves.

You mean you liked watching Raef Lafrentz and Wally Szczerbiak play extended minutes? Characterizing everyone who thinks that he plays the vets more than the developing players as anti doc is a bit harsh.  I would have liked to have seen more of Walker and Giddens when they were here.  I'm not saying that either is going to be an AllStar but perhaps if he did the C's could have gotten more than Nate for them and Eddie House.

As for Doc's comments. Daniels was hurt for a good amount of this year. If he asked should I have given some of Scal's Tony's and Eddies minutes to them how many people would say no?