Bill Walker's play with the Knicks...(merged)

[Cman]

I think if we had young players who could play, Doc would play them.

Rondo and Big Baby, both played a ton during their 2nd year. They helped us win.

Others that come to mind: Delonte West, Powe, Gomes, Big Al...

[Walker] also seems to be taking the high road and realizes it's a business.

Good for him.

[Chris]

I just wish we could have kept him around.  He's developing pretty nicely with playing time.  Not that he really could get that in Boston.  He also seems to be taking the high road and realizes it's a business.  I'll be rooting for him.

I agree.  I wish we could have kept him around as well.  He was a favorite of mind.  I still think his perimeter skills leave a lot to be desired in a normal offense (and his defense also needs a LOT of work), but I think he has a ton of potential, and a good work ethic to reach it, if he can stay healthy.

But if that was the price to upgrade to Nate (who I still hate, but begrudgingly appreciate now that he is a C), then it was well worth it for a team that still has championship aspirations.

[slamtheking]

I think if we had young players who could play, Doc would play them.

Rondo and Big Baby, both played a ton during their 2nd year. They helped us win.

Walker and Giddens never showed they were capable of helping us win...maybe just capable of highlights.

This has been covered many times in many other threads.  My rebuttal to that viewpoint is simple: what were the options for Doc other than Rondo and BBD when they were getting PT?  The answer, no viable options.

Rondo got PT as a rookie after Telfair was handed the starter's role (as the only other PG) and Telfair failed to produce.  BBD got time as a rookie because the only other PF option was Powe.  In fact, BBD got time as the backup center because there was no one else to play that spot.  Pollard was always injured.  If he wasn't, BBD wouldn't have sniffed the court.  Case in point, once PJ was signed, BBD hardly saw the court.

But I digress from the original topic of Walker.  I mentioned this in the game notes-->both he and Giddens looked much more comfortable on the court on offense.  No hesitation like they showed when they were on the floor with the C's.  A small sampling to be sure but follows with my observations last year and this year that they were so worried about making a mistake while playing for Doc that they couldn't relax and get in a groove on the court (so that they might actually contribute and develop).  Not much defense by either of them but to be fair, there wasn't much defense from anyone on that team.  

I wish them both the best of luck with the Knicks and wherever they end up.  Both seemed like good kids while they were here.  Hopefully they get a chance to stick with a team somewhere next year.

[nickagneta]

One other thing. The veteran we traded Bill Walker for, Nate Robinson is 25 year old and still pretty young. Okay he's not a rookie or second year player but he is still pretty [dang] young.

[Meadowlark_Scal]

Well, you guys can say bad things about Walker if you want, but the kid can slash and score....consider that he is playing as his coach wants him to......He does work for D'antoni, it isn't pick up....! But some people are acting as if we couldn't have ever used him, to give the other teams some defensive workover, make them tired....! Or show him off at his best for better trade bait. Maybe give our older guys a break.

   Oh, and don't forget the KNICKS BEAT ATLANTA 3 times, as in, every time they played them, how can you discount that when the Hawks beat us EVERY TIME this YEAR...!

[Jon]

Well, you guys can say bad things about Walker if you want, but the kid can slash and score....consider that he is playing as his coach wants him to......He does work for D'antoni, it isn't pick up....! But some people are acting as if we couldn't have ever used him, to give the other teams some defensive workover, make them tired....! Or show him off at his best for better trade bait. Maybe give our older guys a break.

   Oh, and don't forget the KNICKS BEAT ATLANTA 3 times, as in, every time they played them, how can you discount that when the Hawks beat us EVERY TIME this YEAR...!

Because the Knicks suck and the Hawks probably didn't take them seriously?

And those are really just isolated incidences.  Honestly, I think D'Antoni is a disgrace to the game.  He honestly thinks he can win by scoring a ton of points and playing no defense.  That's never, ever worked in the NBA.  Sure, you can win some regular season games and make a playoff run, but you'll never win a title. 

I don't hate Bill Walker.  He may turn out to be OK.  However, this notion that Doc Rivers hates young players is just flat out ridiculous considering that Perk, Rondo, BBD, and Powe all played big roles in bringing home #17 two years ago. 

Feel free to critique Doc; I'm not his biggest fan in the world.  However, to critique him on that is just silly. 

[Tai]

I couldn't watch the C's/Knicks game last night. Anyone want to comment on how Walker and Giddens looked? Any reason given why Eddie didn't play?

Where are all the Walker-ites tonight?

I'm only askin' since some of you like to play this game.

More personal fouls than points tonight...Someone hurry and take that jersey down from the MSG rafters...

Most of us know he isnt a defensive guy, but the Celtics were looking for an athletic wing who could score.  That sounds like Bill Walker to me!

NO

The Celtics were looking for an athletic wing that could play defense

From the moment he arrived Danny and Doc discussed the need for backup wings that could play defense.

I disagree, we had that in Tony Allen.  We needed offense off the bench that was what we were missing.  That's why Danny went out and got Nate Robinson, because we needed someone explosive off the bench.

Again, wrong

Danny went out and got Nate to add a stabilizing PG presence to the second unit and to give Rondo a real back up

It has been the fans perception that Danny had to go out and get some scoring for the bench but Danny always considered the Nate deal a minor deal to tweak the roster, mostly to give the back ups a true PG that could bring up the ball and run the offense

From the moment Giddens and Walker were drafted and Posey was let go to New Orleans Danny talked about the need for Walker and Giddens to develop into a defensive minded SF

Tony is a SG plain and simple but can't guard SFs

Rasheed, Daniels, Baby and House were to be the offense off the bench

When Daniels and Pierce went down and Rasheed and Baby struggled there became a temporary need for bench scoring

But the overall strategy was for Walker to be a defense SF off the bench while others were the scorers

Walker did not fit that role at all

He might someday be a nice scoring SF coming off the bench for teams, but that was NEVER the role he was brought here to fill

And he can't fill that role because he is a bad defender

BTW, I caught the first half of last night's game

Walker played a decent stretch in the first half not in garbage time

Problem was Willie Green lit him up for like 10 or 12 points in that time, maybe more but I think McGrady had him a bit too

I don't follow college basketball very closely so I wasn't familiar with Walker's game. I went back and read some bios on him. He was mostly spoken of as an explosive - athletic type. He could leap and get to the rim. Needed to work on his outside shot, played decent D and loved to dunk. I am not sure why he was supposed to only be a defensive stopper for us. It seems to me that he has a lot assets that could be used other than just that. Why ignore his natural talents and try to fit him into a box and say we only want you to do this (play defense). Why not "wind him up and let him go" as doc spoke about Nate?

I don't think Nate is a true point guard. He has to play that position because he is so short, but his game is not about distributing the ball. doc wants him to run and shoot.

I think it fits Doc's pattern generally.  If you're a veteran or someone he really needs and wants to play, he'll work to playing to your strengths and covering for your weaknesses (e.g., Eddie House).  If you're a regular rookie on not-yet-established guy, however, he'll try to hold you to correcting your weaknesses before you you play--and exposing them when you do.

I see the rationale but sometimes it is counterproductive because if you played to guys' strengths enough to get them out on the floor they'd have a better chance to work on and learn how to overcome their weaknesses.

Just curious, but define "correcting your weaknesses". Maybe if you mean weaknesses on defense, then that seems to be the case.

[slamtheking]

Well, you guys can say bad things about Walker if you want, but the kid can slash and score....consider that he is playing as his coach wants him to......He does work for D'antoni, it isn't pick up....! But some people are acting as if we couldn't have ever used him, to give the other teams some defensive workover, make them tired....! Or show him off at his best for better trade bait. Maybe give our older guys a break.

   Oh, and don't forget the KNICKS BEAT ATLANTA 3 times, as in, every time they played them, how can you discount that when the Hawks beat us EVERY TIME this YEAR...!

Because the Knicks suck and the Hawks probably didn't take them seriously?

And those are really just isolated incidences.  Honestly, I think D'Antoni is a disgrace to the game.  He honestly thinks he can win by scoring a ton of points and playing no defense.  That's never, ever worked in the NBA.  Sure, you can win some regular season games and make a playoff run, but you'll never win a title. 

I don't hate Bill Walker.  He may turn out to be OK.  However, this notion that Doc Rivers hates young players is just flat out ridiculous considering that Perk, Rondo, BBD, and Powe all played big roles in bringing home #17 two years ago. 
Feel free to critique Doc; I'm not his biggest fan in the world.  However, to critique him on that is just silly. 

As I mentioned above, giving Doc credit for playing or developing youth is absurd.  He plays young players only when he has no other options. 
HOWEVER, if you can rebut my point above and tell me what vet Doc passed over to play Perk, Rondo, BBD and Powe, I will give you 5 Tommy points and more importantly, concede you may be right and I may be wrong.  I have asked a number of posters to prove me wrong on this before and no one has been able to do so.  I welcome any attempt on your part to succeed where others have failed. 
Perk and Rondo started because there were no vets to start ahead of them.  House and Pollard were not realistic options for starting for obvious reasons so don't bother offering them up as your examples.
Powe and BBD got PT because the only other vet big on the team was Pollard who was always injured. Once PJ was signed, BBD was riding the pine and Powe's time was cut back even further.

Posey played a lot of time at the 4 ahead of both Powe and BBD for quite a bit of the games.  Even Scal saw time at that position.  Doc loved small ball with Posey at the 4 because he didn't want to play Powe/BBD significant minutes.  Not saying it wasn't an effective line-up most of the time, but Doc didn't play those 2 a lot of minutes.

[guava_wrench]

Well, you guys can say bad things about Walker if you want, but the kid can slash and score....consider that he is playing as his coach wants him to......He does work for D'antoni, it isn't pick up....! But some people are acting as if we couldn't have ever used him, to give the other teams some defensive workover, make them tired....! Or show him off at his best for better trade bait. Maybe give our older guys a break.

   Oh, and don't forget the KNICKS BEAT ATLANTA 3 times, as in, every time they played them, how can you discount that when the Hawks beat us EVERY TIME this YEAR...!

Because the Knicks suck and the Hawks probably didn't take them seriously?

And those are really just isolated incidences.  Honestly, I think D'Antoni is a disgrace to the game.  He honestly thinks he can win by scoring a ton of points and playing no defense.  That's never, ever worked in the NBA.  Sure, you can win some regular season games and make a playoff run, but you'll never win a title. 

I don't hate Bill Walker.  He may turn out to be OK.  However, this notion that Doc Rivers hates young players is just flat out ridiculous considering that Perk, Rondo, BBD, and Powe all played big roles in bringing home #17 two years ago. 
Feel free to critique Doc; I'm not his biggest fan in the world.  However, to critique him on that is just silly. 

As I mentioned above, giving Doc credit for playing or developing youth is absurd.  He plays young players only when he has no other options. 
HOWEVER, if you can rebut my point above and tell me what vet Doc passed over to play Perk, Rondo, BBD and Powe, I will give you 5 Tommy points and more importantly, concede you may be right and I may be wrong.  I have asked a number of posters to prove me wrong on this before and no one has been able to do so.  I welcome any attempt on your part to succeed where others have failed. 
Perk and Rondo started because there were no vets to start ahead of them.  House and Pollard were not realistic options for starting for obvious reasons so don't bother offering them up as your examples.
Powe and BBD got PT because the only other vet big on the team was Pollard who was always injured. Once PJ was signed, BBD was riding the pine and Powe's time was cut back even further.

Posey played a lot of time at the 4 ahead of both Powe and BBD for quite a bit of the games.  Even Scal saw time at that position.  Doc loved small ball with Posey at the 4 because he didn't want to play Powe/BBD significant minutes.  Not saying it wasn't an effective line-up most of the time, but Doc didn't play those 2 a lot of minutes.

You are free to interpret things however they fit your view.

Obviously, they traded other possible PGs because they were confident in Rondo. This makes your point rather pointless. There is a reason we were willing to give up West and not give up Rondo.

You will likely never concede anything because you have made up your mind.

[slamtheking]

Well, you guys can say bad things about Walker if you want, but the kid can slash and score....consider that he is playing as his coach wants him to......He does work for D'antoni, it isn't pick up....! But some people are acting as if we couldn't have ever used him, to give the other teams some defensive workover, make them tired....! Or show him off at his best for better trade bait. Maybe give our older guys a break.

   Oh, and don't forget the KNICKS BEAT ATLANTA 3 times, as in, every time they played them, how can you discount that when the Hawks beat us EVERY TIME this YEAR...!

Because the Knicks suck and the Hawks probably didn't take them seriously?

And those are really just isolated incidences.  Honestly, I think D'Antoni is a disgrace to the game.  He honestly thinks he can win by scoring a ton of points and playing no defense.  That's never, ever worked in the NBA.  Sure, you can win some regular season games and make a playoff run, but you'll never win a title. 

I don't hate Bill Walker.  He may turn out to be OK.  However, this notion that Doc Rivers hates young players is just flat out ridiculous considering that Perk, Rondo, BBD, and Powe all played big roles in bringing home #17 two years ago. 
Feel free to critique Doc; I'm not his biggest fan in the world.  However, to critique him on that is just silly. 

As I mentioned above, giving Doc credit for playing or developing youth is absurd.  He plays young players only when he has no other options. 
HOWEVER, if you can rebut my point above and tell me what vet Doc passed over to play Perk, Rondo, BBD and Powe, I will give you 5 Tommy points and more importantly, concede you may be right and I may be wrong.  I have asked a number of posters to prove me wrong on this before and no one has been able to do so.  I welcome any attempt on your part to succeed where others have failed. 
Perk and Rondo started because there were no vets to start ahead of them.  House and Pollard were not realistic options for starting for obvious reasons so don't bother offering them up as your examples.
Powe and BBD got PT because the only other vet big on the team was Pollard who was always injured. Once PJ was signed, BBD was riding the pine and Powe's time was cut back even further.

Posey played a lot of time at the 4 ahead of both Powe and BBD for quite a bit of the games.  Even Scal saw time at that position.  Doc loved small ball with Posey at the 4 because he didn't want to play Powe/BBD significant minutes.  Not saying it wasn't an effective line-up most of the time, but Doc didn't play those 2 a lot of minutes.

You are free to interpret things however they fit your view.

Obviously, they traded other possible PGs because they were confident in Rondo. This makes your point rather pointless. There is a reason we were willing to give up West and not give up Rondo.

You will likely never concede anything because you have made up your mind.

Not true. 
I asked for a legitimate rebuttal and would even entertain admitting my opinion may be wrong if someone could provide a legit counterpoint. 
If you're offering up the trading of Delonte as the proof that Doc would play youth over a vet when he had an option, that's not addressing my point at all.  Delonte was just another young player and the C's organization picked between 2 young players which one to keep. 
This doesn't counter my point that when Doc has an option between a young player and a vet, he goes with the vet and the young player will only get on the court when there is no other option.  My question still stands: who were the vets Doc passed over (who were healthy to play at that time) to play the young players on this team during his tenure?

[BudweiserCeltic]

Well, you guys can say bad things about Walker if you want, but the kid can slash and score....consider that he is playing as his coach wants him to......He does work for D'antoni, it isn't pick up....! But some people are acting as if we couldn't have ever used him, to give the other teams some defensive workover, make them tired....! Or show him off at his best for better trade bait. Maybe give our older guys a break.

   Oh, and don't forget the KNICKS BEAT ATLANTA 3 times, as in, every time they played them, how can you discount that when the Hawks beat us EVERY TIME this YEAR...!

Because the Knicks suck and the Hawks probably didn't take them seriously?

And those are really just isolated incidences.  Honestly, I think D'Antoni is a disgrace to the game.  He honestly thinks he can win by scoring a ton of points and playing no defense.  That's never, ever worked in the NBA.  Sure, you can win some regular season games and make a playoff run, but you'll never win a title. 

I don't hate Bill Walker.  He may turn out to be OK.  However, this notion that Doc Rivers hates young players is just flat out ridiculous considering that Perk, Rondo, BBD, and Powe all played big roles in bringing home #17 two years ago. 
Feel free to critique Doc; I'm not his biggest fan in the world.  However, to critique him on that is just silly. 

As I mentioned above, giving Doc credit for playing or developing youth is absurd.  He plays young players only when he has no other options. 
HOWEVER, if you can rebut my point above and tell me what vet Doc passed over to play Perk, Rondo, BBD and Powe, I will give you 5 Tommy points and more importantly, concede you may be right and I may be wrong.  I have asked a number of posters to prove me wrong on this before and no one has been able to do so.  I welcome any attempt on your part to succeed where others have failed. 
Perk and Rondo started because there were no vets to start ahead of them.  House and Pollard were not realistic options for starting for obvious reasons so don't bother offering them up as your examples.
Powe and BBD got PT because the only other vet big on the team was Pollard who was always injured. Once PJ was signed, BBD was riding the pine and Powe's time was cut back even further.

Posey played a lot of time at the 4 ahead of both Powe and BBD for quite a bit of the games.  Even Scal saw time at that position.  Doc loved small ball with Posey at the 4 because he didn't want to play Powe/BBD significant minutes.  Not saying it wasn't an effective line-up most of the time, but Doc didn't play those 2 a lot of minutes.

You are free to interpret things however they fit your view.

Obviously, they traded other possible PGs because they were confident in Rondo. This makes your point rather pointless. There is a reason we were willing to give up West and not give up Rondo.

You will likely never concede anything because you have made up your mind.

Not true. 
I asked for a legitimate rebuttal and would even entertain admitting my opinion may be wrong if someone could provide a legit counterpoint. 
If you're offering up the trading of Delonte as the proof that Doc would play youth over a vet when he had an option, that's not addressing my point at all.  Delonte was just another young player and the C's organization picked between 2 young players which one to keep. 
This doesn't counter my point that when Doc has an option between a young player and a vet, he goes with the vet and the young player will only get on the court when there is no other option.  My question still stands: who were the vets Doc passed over (who were healthy to play at that time) to play the young players on this team during his tenure?

Didn't Ainge in an interview after we won the championship said something along the lines of not signing a real PG during free-agency on purpose to kinda force Doc to play Rondo, or am I making this entirely up? For some reason I have some sort of recollection of this being the situation.

[nickagneta]

Well, you guys can say bad things about Walker if you want, but the kid can slash and score....consider that he is playing as his coach wants him to......He does work for D'antoni, it isn't pick up....! But some people are acting as if we couldn't have ever used him, to give the other teams some defensive workover, make them tired....! Or show him off at his best for better trade bait. Maybe give our older guys a break.

   Oh, and don't forget the KNICKS BEAT ATLANTA 3 times, as in, every time they played them, how can you discount that when the Hawks beat us EVERY TIME this YEAR...!

Because the Knicks suck and the Hawks probably didn't take them seriously?

And those are really just isolated incidences.  Honestly, I think D'Antoni is a disgrace to the game.  He honestly thinks he can win by scoring a ton of points and playing no defense.  That's never, ever worked in the NBA.  Sure, you can win some regular season games and make a playoff run, but you'll never win a title. 

I don't hate Bill Walker.  He may turn out to be OK.  However, this notion that Doc Rivers hates young players is just flat out ridiculous considering that Perk, Rondo, BBD, and Powe all played big roles in bringing home #17 two years ago. 
Feel free to critique Doc; I'm not his biggest fan in the world.  However, to critique him on that is just silly. 

As I mentioned above, giving Doc credit for playing or developing youth is absurd.  He plays young players only when he has no other options. 
HOWEVER, if you can rebut my point above and tell me what vet Doc passed over to play Perk, Rondo, BBD and Powe, I will give you 5 Tommy points and more importantly, concede you may be right and I may be wrong.  I have asked a number of posters to prove me wrong on this before and no one has been able to do so.  I welcome any attempt on your part to succeed where others have failed. 
Perk and Rondo started because there were no vets to start ahead of them.  House and Pollard were not realistic options for starting for obvious reasons so don't bother offering them up as your examples.
Powe and BBD got PT because the only other vet big on the team was Pollard who was always injured. Once PJ was signed, BBD was riding the pine and Powe's time was cut back even further.

Posey played a lot of time at the 4 ahead of both Powe and BBD for quite a bit of the games.  Even Scal saw time at that position.  Doc loved small ball with Posey at the 4 because he didn't want to play Powe/BBD significant minutes.  Not saying it wasn't an effective line-up most of the time, but Doc didn't play those 2 a lot of minutes.

You are free to interpret things however they fit your view.

Obviously, they traded other possible PGs because they were confident in Rondo. This makes your point rather pointless. There is a reason we were willing to give up West and not give up Rondo.

You will likely never concede anything because you have made up your mind.

Not true. 
I asked for a legitimate rebuttal and would even entertain admitting my opinion may be wrong if someone could provide a legit counterpoint. 
If you're offering up the trading of Delonte as the proof that Doc would play youth over a vet when he had an option, that's not addressing my point at all.  Delonte was just another young player and the C's organization picked between 2 young players which one to keep. 
This doesn't counter my point that when Doc has an option between a young player and a vet, he goes with the vet and the young player will only get on the court when there is no other option.  My question still stands: who were the vets Doc passed over (who were healthy to play at that time) to play the young players on this team during his tenure?

Actually the truth of the situation is that Sebatian Telfair was the starting PG from the start of the season with Wally Szczerbiak being the shooting guard. Wally was constantly hurt playing a block of games at a time and then missing a block and then playing a block and missing a block.

During that time Doc tried Delonte as the starting SG, Gerald Green as the starting SG and then Tony Allen. Allen finally earned the starting nod but got hurt. Gerald Green then took over the SG duties. During that same span of games it became apparent that Telfair couldn't get it done, so on January 19th of 2007 he was replaced...by Delonte West.

Gerald Green as the SG became a disaster. But in backing up Delonte Rondo started showing that he was understanding the offense and could be a good defender. Doc decided he had earned the right to start while moving Delonte to SG to replace a woeful Gerald Green. When Pierce returned from a long injury the Perk, Big Al, Pierce, West, Rondo starting five started playing very well together and except for sitting Al and Pierce later in the year to tank and guarantee the second worse record, this was the group that ended the year as starters.

Rondo did not get the PG position because of injury. He got the position by impressing the coaching staff while backing up Delonte West and because West was a comba guard and Rondo and Delonte played well together as a tandem, Doc went with those two as his starters because they played the best.

Go back and check out the game logs. They will show that all this is true.

[Meadowlark_Scal]

Well, okay guys, a lot of good points there, you are right, and i didn't think of that, perk didn't play because he was a rookie, he played because they had no one else.....but...i mean, with all that has happened, it is just a fact of what doc does and doesn't do, reguardless of IF you like the player or not, doc does play vets over rooks, doc does not really develop rooks in any time, i think most would agree, develop the rooks in oct, nov, dec...see what they got, you drafted them, you must have seen something, so play them, we all know "Practice" is not game time, anyone can be a star in practice...is that not so..? Game time is for real and happens fast, and you have uneven refs and hardcore players against you..! give a player REAL time and not scrub minutes, you all know what happens in scrub minutes, not much passing...players are trying to show what they can do, it is chaotic and foolish to try to judge a player in that type of situation, doc dumped POB befor ever playing him, love him or hate him, he never saw prime time, i for one loved his game..! Walker has skills, and he could have contributed here, doc's decision making is pretty weak, kg, ray and pp run this team & lead us to #17, doc showed you his versatility, and vision by putting us in the same place 2 januaries in a row......Also, will you guys plaese try to make your point and your side WITHOUT taking each other on.......isn't there enough war to go around, financial, ect......stay cool...!

[Andy Jick]

I think some people here just hate Doc so much that he could give away $100 bills and people still would complain.

Rajon Rondo is an all-star player largely (not totally) because of Doc Rivers.  The kid was put in one of the most difficult positions: 1) his position (PG) by nature is (outside of Center) the hardest on the floor.  And 2) he plays the role of QB on a veteran team - not an easy task.  Doc can be rough on his PGs but what he's done for Rondo can't be understated.  Some of you here just amaze me that you're willing to pass this off as no big deal...

[More Banners]

Well, okay guys, a lot of good points there, you are right, and i didn't think of that, perk didn't play because he was a rookie, he played because they had no one else.....but...i mean, with all that has happened, it is just a fact of what doc does and doesn't do, reguardless of IF you like the player or not, doc does play vets over rooks, doc does not really develop rooks in any time, i think most would agree, develop the rooks in oct, nov, dec...see what they got, you drafted them, you must have seen something, so play them, we all know "Practice" is not game time, anyone can be a star in practice...is that not so..? Game time is for real and happens fast, and you have uneven refs and hardcore players against you..! give a player REAL time and not scrub minutes, you all know what happens in scrub minutes, not much passing...players are trying to show what they can do, it is chaotic and foolish to try to judge a player in that type of situation, doc dumped POB befor ever playing him, love him or hate him, he never saw prime time, i for one loved his game..! Walker has skills, and he could have contributed here, doc's decision making is pretty weak, kg, ray and pp run this team & lead us to #17, doc showed you his versatility, and vision by putting us in the same place 2 januaries in a row......Also, will you guys plaese try to make your point and your side WITHOUT taking each other on.......isn't there enough war to go around, financial, ect......stay cool...!

TP for giving peace a chance.