So is the whole vets vs. young players a relevant problem?

[twinbree]

Speculating Here:

If there is a 'friction', I'd say Perk and Baby. Perk minutes are dipping fast. And Baby playing behind the Sheed the Chucker. Maybe in their heads they think they can offer more than a limping KG or Sheed the Chucker.

End of Speculation.

baby definitely ... perk no way

IF there is friction, I would not be surprised if Perk is involved, but I wouldn't say it's his fault. I mean, he's our best center, he's got a very good plus/minus, he's worked his ass off to get better every year, and this year his minutes are down to an out of shape underacheiving chucker.

Imagine being told since you got here that you have to do certain things to earn playing time: make the smart offensive play, play within your limits, take care of and build your body...then, for the first time in your career, your minutes per game DECREASES from the previous year because a fat guy who shoots over 4 threes a game (and makes .296 of them) needs minutes at center.

I'm too lazy to look it up but is that really Sheed's 3 point%? I knew he wasn't exactly lighting it up but that is brutal. Yeah Perk seems like a likely candidate. I've heard comments about his body language not being great recently but I personally haven't noticed.

[twinbree]

I would just make a guess that everyone on the team is adjusting to the fact that KG is nowhere near the player he once was, Ray is slipping and Rondo is the best player on the team.   Not necessarily that there is friction... it's just a need to adjust to the facts.  Within a year the team's dynamic has changed.   Rondo has become the most consistent and the best player on the team.   The elderly players are not what they once were.  I'm sure everyone is feeling a need to adjust and is having trouble figuring out how. 

Two years ago when we were a champion we had clear roles.  KG was the leader.  The defensive superstar and the best player on the team.  He wasn't the KG of the Timberwolves years, but he was still the best player on the squad.   Pierce was the go-to scorer and Ray was a great 3rd option.  Rondo was a roleplayer.

Now we have Rondo as the best player on the team.  Pierce is still a solid scorer, Ray a slipping shooter who needs his teammates to create screens for him more and more... and KG as a broken old man who can hardly walk, but still fills a defensive role.   Everyone on the team needs to learn how to play with the new hierarchy.  It becomes a problem in the 4th quarter, because whereas it use to be ok to just give the ball to one of the "big 3" at the end of the game and get out of the way... the strategy doesn't make much sense now when none of the big 3 are the best player on the team.

TP. You totally said what I was trying to say but infinitely much better. I agree it's an adjustment phase but I'm not sure if the coaches recognize that or if they do but have not figured out how make the transition as efficient as possible.

[BballTim]

  It's not necessarily as nefarious as some people think. There aren't necessarily agendas involved. The Celts were without a healthy Pierce/KG pairing for 7 weeks or so. When Paul went down before Xmas Rondo was averaging under 10 points a game. He was averaging close to double that when they were out. Now that they're back, is he one of the main scorers? Is he back to setting them up? Even if they simply went back to the pre-Xmas style of play it would take a number of games to get back in sync. Nut I doubt that they are. They're settling into new roles and getting used to playing together again. It will take time to mesh again.

Agreed.  The C's have some identity issues to work out that are often exposed in crunch time.  Rondo's still deferring to Pierce, Ray and KG in crunch time.  These possessions are frequently devolve into standing around waiting for: a) Ray to free himself off of screens, b) Paul to iso a mismatch on the elbow, c) KG to seal his man on the post.

This leads to stagnation, turnovers and contested shots, which leads to timeouts where ball movement is emphasized.  Unfortunately the offense is still initiated through the same conventional points of attack, and the 2nd options created through ball movement become Rondo jumpers and Perk post-ups.

I don't really see a solution to this however, unless Rondo steps up and becomes the 4th quarter go to option, which his FT/jump-shooting makes a questionable option.

  I don't think he needs to shoot all the time, but he needs to drive more, maybe pick and pop with KG. If he gets into the teeth of the defense it makes it easier for Paul to get his shot off or Ray to get open.

[BASS_THUMPER]

youth vs injured ol folks.?.

yep..

[twinbree]

Good thread.  I am usually loathe to speculate about the psychology of our Celtics, but it's obvious that something is wrong.  It isn't just old bodies, it's listless and confounding play.  I admire these guys too much to believe they are content to suck.

With that in mind, I appreciate your posts because I have absolutely no idea what could have brought the Celtics to weak level of play we've been seeing in 2010.

Hi TTLG :-) Yeah I usually hate to speculate about things I have absolutely no idea about. But something about this is just niggling at me. Is it really an issue? Is it being addressed? Ignored? Opposed? Patronized? UGH I'm probably just making something out of nothing but something but I feel the team's potential is not being fully utilized and I have to wonder if this is why.

[twinbree]

  It's not necessarily as nefarious as some people think. There aren't necessarily agendas involved. The Celts were without a healthy Pierce/KG pairing for 7 weeks or so. When Paul went down before Xmas Rondo was averaging under 10 points a game. He was averaging close to double that when they were out. Now that they're back, is he one of the main scorers? Is he back to setting them up? Even if they simply went back to the pre-Xmas style of play it would take a number of games to get back in sync. Nut I doubt that they are. They're settling into new roles and getting used to playing together again. It will take time to mesh again.

Agreed.  The C's have some identity issues to work out that are often exposed in crunch time.  Rondo's still deferring to Pierce, Ray and KG in crunch time.  These possessions are frequently devolve into standing around waiting for: a) Ray to free himself off of screens, b) Paul to iso a mismatch on the elbow, c) KG to seal his man on the post.

This leads to stagnation, turnovers and contested shots, which leads to timeouts where ball movement is emphasized.  Unfortunately the offense is still initiated through the same conventional points of attack, and the 2nd options created through ball movement become Rondo jumpers and Perk post-ups.

I don't really see a solution to this however, unless Rondo steps up and becomes the 4th quarter go to option, which his FT/jump-shooting makes a questionable option.

I agree it's probably not nefarious at all. Change is never easy but like KG said it shouldn't be affecting their rythmn this much. I honestly don't mind the Big 3 being the go to guys if we need a bucket crunchtime. They still are the proven scorers on the team. My problem is when we randomly (at least it seems so to me) move from running plays and go straight into iso mode after crossing halfcourt when the game isn't yet on the line.
 

[chelsearules]

  It's not necessarily as nefarious as some people think. There aren't necessarily agendas involved. The Celts were without a healthy Pierce/KG pairing for 7 weeks or so. When Paul went down before Xmas Rondo was averaging under 10 points a game. He was averaging close to double that when they were out. Now that they're back, is he one of the main scorers? Is he back to setting them up? Even if they simply went back to the pre-Xmas style of play it would take a number of games to get back in sync. Nut I doubt that they are. They're settling into new roles and getting used to playing together again. It will take time to mesh again.

Agreed.  The C's have some identity issues to work out that are often exposed in crunch time.  Rondo's still deferring to Pierce, Ray and KG in crunch time.  These possessions are frequently devolve into standing around waiting for: a) Ray to free himself off of screens, b) Paul to iso a mismatch on the elbow, c) KG to seal his man on the post.

This leads to stagnation, turnovers and contested shots, which leads to timeouts where ball movement is emphasized.  Unfortunately the offense is still initiated through the same conventional points of attack, and the 2nd options created through ball movement become Rondo jumpers and Perk post-ups.

I don't really see a solution to this however, unless Rondo steps up and becomes the 4th quarter go to option, which his FT/jump-shooting makes a questionable option.

  I don't think he needs to shoot all the time, but he needs to drive more, maybe pick and pop with KG. If he gets into the teeth of the defense it makes it easier for Paul to get his shot off or Ray to get open.

thats what i keep saying let the allstar point initiate the offense instead of running it through the wings ...  the team needs to be running but we don't have the athleticism so make the pick & roll a weapon in the halfcourt... let him run that or drive and dish or dump to perk... look for the high% shots

[Thruthelookingglass]

Good thread.  I am usually loathe to speculate about the psychology of our Celtics, but it's obvious that something is wrong.  It isn't just old bodies, it's listless and confounding play.  I admire these guys too much to believe they are content to suck.

With that in mind, I appreciate your posts because I have absolutely no idea what could have brought the Celtics to weak level of play we've been seeing in 2010.

Hi TTLG :-) Yeah I usually hate to speculate about things I have absolutely no idea about. But something about this is just niggling at me. Is it really an issue? Is it being addressed? Ignored? Opposed? Patronized? UGH I'm probably just making something out of nothing but something but I feel the team's potential is not being fully utilized and I have to wonder if this is why.

Cheers Twinbree!  There's a lot of possible answers, and probably more than one is partly right.  And while I may never know, I do know that tonight I'm hoping, almost against hope, that the drive to 18 begins by terrorizing the Western Conference.

[twinbree]

Good thread.  I am usually loathe to speculate about the psychology of our Celtics, but it's obvious that something is wrong.  It isn't just old bodies, it's listless and confounding play.  I admire these guys too much to believe they are content to suck.

With that in mind, I appreciate your posts because I have absolutely no idea what could have brought the Celtics to weak level of play we've been seeing in 2010.

Hi TTLG :-) Yeah I usually hate to speculate about things I have absolutely no idea about. But something about this is just niggling at me. Is it really an issue? Is it being addressed? Ignored? Opposed? Patronized? UGH I'm probably just making something out of nothing but something but I feel the team's potential is not being fully utilized and I have to wonder if this is why.

Cheers Twinbree!  There's a lot of possible answers, and probably more than one is partly right.  And while I may never know, I do know that tonight I'm hoping, almost against hope, that the drive to 18 begins by terrorizing the Western Conference.

I love your optimism. TP! I'm looking forward to good health and some momentum the final weeks of the season myself. And trying to let my worries about motivation and play go for now but it isn't easy with my twin chirping in my ear all day. I swear she must be whispering Celtic conspiracy theories to me whilst I'm sleeping.

[chelsearules]

pierce v rondo is the problem... watching them against the flakers last nite gave me the feeling