So is the whole vets vs. young players a relevant problem?

[twinbree]

I haven’t paid much attention to the whole vets vs. young ones friction theory my twin has been touting for weeks but I just noticed this curious tidbit from KG that made me curious and I’ll readily concede this is vague and doesn’t say much.

“We have a sense of urgency,’’ Garnett said of the Celtics. “We know we have to be more consistent in who we are - a defensive team first, that can score the basketball. With the emergence of our young guys and everybody getting better, there is a type of adjusting there, but none of that should never knock us off our rhythm. We have had some injuries and things of that such and that plays with chemistry, but no excuses made, none given.

http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/articles/2010/02/13/garnett_embraces_all_star_break

So who’s having troubling adjusting here? Doc? Part or all of the Big 3? Perk? Rajon? Big Baby? All of them? Who?

Regardless of who Doc has to take responsibility for making this adjustment. Not so much off the court where I doubt there’s really any friction but on the court. I have said that Doc is still asking the vets to carry the burden they did 2 years ago instead of giving a little more responsibility to the younger players. For instance, playing Perk fewer minutes even though he started off the season great just because Sheed is here. He’s 35! Play him 10 minutes or give him a game off against smaller frontlines.

I really think if the coaches can game plan with the recognition that there is more parity between what the older and younger players are producing than there was before the team would be playing better.

[chelsearules]

So who’s having troubling adjusting here?

my money is on this guy ====>

[Change]

Speculating Here:

If there is a 'friction', I'd say Perk and Baby. Perk minutes are dipping fast. And Baby playing behind the Sheed the Chucker. Maybe in their heads they think they can offer more than a limping KG or Sheed the Chucker.

End of Speculation.

[chelsearules]

Speculating Here:

If there is a 'friction', I'd say Perk and Baby. Perk minutes are dipping fast. And Baby playing behind the Sheed the Chucker. Maybe in their heads they think they can offer more than a limping KG or Sheed the Chucker.

End of Speculation.

baby definitely ... perk no way

[Fan from VT]

Speculating Here:

If there is a 'friction', I'd say Perk and Baby. Perk minutes are dipping fast. And Baby playing behind the Sheed the Chucker. Maybe in their heads they think they can offer more than a limping KG or Sheed the Chucker.

End of Speculation.

baby definitely ... perk no way

IF there is friction, I would not be surprised if Perk is involved, but I wouldn't say it's his fault. I mean, he's our best center, he's got a very good plus/minus, he's worked his ass off to get better every year, and this year his minutes are down to an out of shape underacheiving chucker.

Imagine being told since you got here that you have to do certain things to earn playing time: make the smart offensive play, play within your limits, take care of and build your body...then, for the first time in your career, your minutes per game DECREASES from the previous year because a fat guy who shoots over 4 threes a game (and makes .296 of them) needs minutes at center.

[LarBrd33]

I would just make a guess that everyone on the team is adjusting to the fact that KG is nowhere near the player he once was, Ray is slipping and Rondo is the best player on the team.   Not necessarily that there is friction... it's just a need to adjust to the facts.  Within a year the team's dynamic has changed.   Rondo has become the most consistent and the best player on the team.   The elderly players are not what they once were.  I'm sure everyone is feeling a need to adjust and is having trouble figuring out how. 

Two years ago when we were a champion we had clear roles.  KG was the leader.  The defensive superstar and the best player on the team.  He wasn't the KG of the Timberwolves years, but he was still the best player on the squad.   Pierce was the go-to scorer and Ray was a great 3rd option.  Rondo was a roleplayer.

Now we have Rondo as the best player on the team.  Pierce is still a solid scorer, Ray a slipping shooter who needs his teammates to create screens for him more and more... and KG as a broken old man who can hardly walk, but still fills a defensive role.   Everyone on the team needs to learn how to play with the new hierarchy.  It becomes a problem in the 4th quarter, because whereas it use to be ok to just give the ball to one of the "big 3" at the end of the game and get out of the way... the strategy doesn't make much sense now when none of the big 3 are the best player on the team.

[Who]

Perkins would be my first choice. I think the Big Three are happy enough to see Rondo's growing role because he's clearly a dominant player who has a major impact on whether they win or lose. They all realize and accept that. But Perkins? His increased offensive role? I see that being an issue.

[jdpapa3]

I don't know if it is a problem. It apparently was a big enough issue last year to come to a players only meeting, but this team maxed out the talent on the roster by taking Orlando to 7 games.

[LarBrd33]

What i'm trying to say is... Tim Duncan is the best player on the Spurs.  The Spurs belong to Tim Duncan.  The Spurs are Tim Duncan's team.  He's the anchor of the defense and the most reliable player on offense.   

In a few years if Tim Duncan starts hobbling around on one leg, starts putting up 12 points and 7 rebounds consistently... and Tony Parker steps up as the best player on the Spurs, I imagine the Spurs are going to have a period of adjustment and probably get a ton of losses during that transition.

Well two years ago the Celtics were KG's team.  KG was the best player on the Celtics.  The Celtics belonged to KG.  Unfortunately, due to KG blowing out his knees and Rondo taking a leap to fringe allstar, this team is having a period of transition quicker than expected.   Either they adjust to the fact that the "big 3" aint the "Big 3" no more and Rondo is the new leader... or we will continue to struggle trying to force the past on the present.

[chelsearules]

Speculating Here:

If there is a 'friction', I'd say Perk and Baby. Perk minutes are dipping fast. And Baby playing behind the Sheed the Chucker. Maybe in their heads they think they can offer more than a limping KG or Sheed the Chucker.

End of Speculation.

baby definitely ... perk no way

IF there is friction, I would not be surprised if Perk is involved, but I wouldn't say it's his fault. I mean, he's our best center, he's got a very good plus/minus, he's worked his ass off to get better every year, and this year his minutes are down to an out of shape underacheiving chucker.

Imagine being told since you got here that you have to do certain things to earn playing time: make the smart offensive play, play within your limits, take care of and build your body...then, for the first time in your career, your minutes per game DECREASES from the previous year because a fat guy who shoots over 4 threes a game (and makes .296 of them) needs minutes at center.

lol i can see why he'd be ****ed but perk doesnt seem like a guy who causes trouble in the locker room and he has a big mouth too we'd have heard something if he were mad... baby and maybe rondo are the ones i cna see causing trouble... all the others seem like cool dudes

[sk7326]

when the team struggles, individual agendas rise up - it's just how it goes ...

[Thruthelookingglass]

. . .

So who’s having troubling adjusting here? Doc? Part or all of the Big 3? Perk? Rajon? Big Baby? All of them? Who?

. . .

I really think if the coaches can game plan with the recognition that there is more parity between what the older and younger players are producing than there was before the team would be playing better.

Good thread.  I am usually loathe to speculate about the psychology of our Celtics, but it's obvious that something is wrong.  It isn't just old bodies, it's listless and confounding play.  I admire these guys too much to believe they are content to suck.

With that in mind, I appreciate your posts because I have absolutely no idea what could have brought the Celtics to weak level of play we've been seeing in 2010.

[chelsearules]

when the team struggles, individual agendas rise up - it's just how it goes ...

or when individual agendas rise up the team struggles...according to doc anyway

[BballTim]

  It's not necessarily as nefarious as some people think. There aren't necessarily agendas involved. The Celts were without a healthy Pierce/KG pairing for 7 weeks or so. When Paul went down before Xmas Rondo was averaging under 10 points a game. He was averaging close to double that when they were out. Now that they're back, is he one of the main scorers? Is he back to setting them up? Even if they simply went back to the pre-Xmas style of play it would take a number of games to get back in sync. Nut I doubt that they are. They're settling into new roles and getting used to playing together again. It will take time to mesh again.

[snively]

  It's not necessarily as nefarious as some people think. There aren't necessarily agendas involved. The Celts were without a healthy Pierce/KG pairing for 7 weeks or so. When Paul went down before Xmas Rondo was averaging under 10 points a game. He was averaging close to double that when they were out. Now that they're back, is he one of the main scorers? Is he back to setting them up? Even if they simply went back to the pre-Xmas style of play it would take a number of games to get back in sync. Nut I doubt that they are. They're settling into new roles and getting used to playing together again. It will take time to mesh again.

Agreed.  The C's have some identity issues to work out that are often exposed in crunch time.  Rondo's still deferring to Pierce, Ray and KG in crunch time.  These possessions are frequently devolve into standing around waiting for: a) Ray to free himself off of screens, b) Paul to iso a mismatch on the elbow, c) KG to seal his man on the post.

This leads to stagnation, turnovers and contested shots, which leads to timeouts where ball movement is emphasized.  Unfortunately the offense is still initiated through the same conventional points of attack, and the 2nd options created through ball movement become Rondo jumpers and Perk post-ups.

I don't really see a solution to this however, unless Rondo steps up and becomes the 4th quarter go to option, which his FT/jump-shooting makes a questionable option.